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Zoloft

Fitness tips, Relaxation, Mind and Body
TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Zoloft

#431821

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » August 1st, 2021, 11:25 am

bjmarren wrote:My wife has always been anxious and a bad sleeper from an early age, but lock-down last year exacerbated things, as it did for many people. We see the problem, at the moment, as more related to not being able to sleep as it seems as bedtime approaches, she has thoughts about not being able to sleep and this brings on even more anxiety. Your comments on therapy sessions certainly struck a chord and it's something we need to investigate, but as people were locked away for such things here,

Hi Brendan,

RE: Therapy sessions. You mention somewhere in this thread, something about "Bulgaria". So I may struggle to give practical advice. In the England it's fairly simple, one self-refers (no GP is needed)

This is the link for my area
https://www.cpft.nhs.uk/self-refer-here/

and I know from very close young relatives recent experiences, that the service is fully functional in Covid/lockdown times. The only difference is that the sessions occur over Zoom/Skype etc.

Slightly off-the-wall Brendan, I'm not a psychologist but your wife's behaviour at bedtime, sounds very like it's driven by compulsions. Do you think she has OCD?

OCD breaks down into 3 outward manifestations.

1. Checking
2. Hoarding
3. Cleaning

Every sufferer is different. I was mostly a "checker", with an element of hoarding. Some people have a more inward looking OCD, that known as PureOCD, which is more about intrusive thoughts leading to some quite scary and annoying thought patterns. I had an element of that too. Examples, being thinking about driving your car into oncoming traffic, thinking about doing GBH to friends and loved ones.

Anyway even without therapy by professional, there are plenty of decent books which may help to open doors. B4 my therapy got started I bought this which probably gave me a head start, for when I finally did get a therapist.

One recommendation, as a kind of self-help recipe, is to get your wife (it's a very personal thing and sometimes easier alone or with a non-family member/spouse) to catalog her whole life. That's what my therapist helped me with. It's like basic psycho-analysis. I ended up pin-pointing about 3 or 4 weird things (i.e. real or imagined memories / experiences) which were stuck in my head. The most easy to describe example being when I was 6 yr old, and we went on family holiday to Corfu. Mum and Dad left me to my own devices to find my way down from the bedroom to the breakfast hall. I ended up getting stuck alone in the lift.....didn't know what button to press as it moved up and down in the building! I was for several minutes absolutely petrified. That event itself set the seed for being anxious / needing confirmation of personal security more and more as my life continued. Anyway everyone has these type of experiences, but we are all effected differently. For me, discovering them, rationalising them, and realising that I didn't need to continue to be afraid of that type of event anymore opened the door to my recovery.

Matt

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Re: Zoloft

#431826

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » August 1st, 2021, 11:37 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:As one or two are aware I've had an interesting journey with my health over a considerable part of my life. And I'm currently still working on issues connected with my condition. Frustrating.

bjmarren wrote:Any advice here?

How many people here have tried mindful mediation? This can be a simple as just relaxing breathing exercises, not at all hippyish, or more hippyish i.e.
letting thoughts gently float in ones brain, playing "thought-linking" games as one analyses each drifting thought.

I started doing this every single day from about summer 2016. I have to say the combination of SSRIs and MM has seen my BP fall from averaging around 140/80 to 120/60. Just that is pretty cool, totally forgetting about the mental health aspect. It really helps me sleep better and stay calmer.

In about 2018, a former work colleague started doing mindfulness sessions at work. I wasn't that interested, since I'd already "cracked it". I went to a couple of sessions. But often this type of thing is quite personal....but anyway what my colleague was basically doing was "showing people the way". It's kinda like therapy, in that sense, since the therapist doesn't actually cure you, but just drops hints as to how the cure can be found. Anyway another work pal, he went to the sessions, and after about 6 months he became really really into it! And started practicing MM twice a day. He had been suffering from very frustrating tinnitus and the peace he found in MM helped him escape this and deal with many other life/work stressors.

Matt

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Re: Zoloft

#431831

Postby ReformedCharacter » August 1st, 2021, 11:52 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:How many people here have tried mindful meditation?
Matt

Yes, I do and find it very helpful. One advantage is that it can be done almost anywhere. It really helps when sitting in the dentist's chair :)

RC

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Re: Zoloft

#432083

Postby bjmarren » August 2nd, 2021, 4:58 pm

Hi RVF,

Yes, we do find your opinion very helpful. We've been talking about changing certain aspects of my wife's lifestyle, such as her job which is working in the real estate business here, where people are unethical, dishonest, in addition to which the stress and anxiety related to getting deals completed adds to her anxiety. I've been on at her for a number of years now to change this aspect of her life and she now recognises that something has to change in this area. I personally am more sceptical than my wife about the medicinal route to bringing about change and feel that lifestyle changes, where possible, will have a more beneficial long-lasting effect. We're just at the start of the journey and really appreciate the opinion and experience of people like yourself whom have been dealing with it for years.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432114

Postby bjmarren » August 2nd, 2021, 7:59 pm

Hi Matt,

Here in Bulgaria, referrals using a GP means the costs of using a specialist is much reduced as they're usually working in the same clinic, otherwise going direct to a Specialist is not a problem but is a lot more expensive. As regards her behaviour at bedtime being connected with of OCD is not something we've considered. However, she had a number of sessions with a Psychologist where her childhood was explored a great deal, amongst other things. However, after a number of sessions, my wife didn't feel she was getting anywhere as the Psychologist didn't seem to have a clear idea of what the sessions where the sessions were leading to.

Your suggestion about cataloging her life seems to me to be a very good idea, as we've been trying to identify areas that cause the anxiety and childhood experiences are still real with her, particularly her relationships with her sister and ex. Thank you for sharing your experience, I'll show her your posting.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432117

Postby bjmarren » August 2nd, 2021, 8:05 pm

Hi RVF,

We agree entirely with you that part of the path forward is a combination of medicine and life-style changes, one of which is to re-appraise her job which is in real estate, which is a real shitty business here, due to the lack of ethics and dishonesty of both the clients and the so called colleagues. This alone is the source of much of the anxiety and seeping problems.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432156

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » August 3rd, 2021, 7:54 am

bjmarren wrote:Here in Bulgaria, referrals using a GP means the costs of using a specialist is much reduced as they're usually working in the same clinic, otherwise going direct to a Specialist is not a problem but is a lot more expensive. As regards her behaviour at bedtime being connected with of OCD is not something we've considered.

OCD is really just a symptom, of underlying anxiety and the perceptions of need for security/safety/acceptance.

However, she had a number of sessions with a Psychologist where her childhood was explored a great deal, amongst other things. However, after a number of sessions, my wife didn't feel she was getting anywhere as the Psychologist didn't seem to have a clear idea of what the sessions where the sessions were leading to.

I don't want to criticise, and I don't know your wifes situation anymore than what you've written so far. But I do know of a 16 yr old relative who couldn't stick therapy, when they badly needed it. I also know that from my own experiences, that whilst for me the whole thing "worked", therapy is damn hard. I had to spend a lot of time being brutally honest with myself about how my thoughts/feelings/emotions inter connected, and start discussing stuff *very openly* to others. I obviously wasn't at your wifes sessions, but it's possible that the shrink was still feeling their way round the situation, and it's also possible that your wife wasn't opening up. The shrink really is there just as a facilitator, the key thing is not someone the client should see in normal life, and hopefully all barriers of shame are removed. That's my take. And perhaps I'm being very individual here, but I'm sure that my view is *not unique* and that is, that all aspects of shame/guilt/embarrassment must be (at least temporarily) shed prior to making any kind of recovery.

I recently read the first few chapters of this book. James O Brien describes how tough childhood experience made him construct a strong psychological shell, which protected and helped him careerwise for a few decades......but recently he found the tough shell had completely crippled him in dealing with any emotional or empathetic instances. He details part of his journey e.g. towards therapy.....etc...etc.. But what sticks in my mind is how James recalls Ian Wrights (footballer) experience with therapy. At a very early stage Ian Wright's therapist basically exploded at Ian, because Ian was almost lying and in a state of complete denial, about himself, and how she (therapist) would like to end the sessions now, and concentrate on ppl who really want to be helped. According to the book Ian Wright did break down at that point, and basically let everything out. Presumably he feels better about whatever it was that put him in the therapy room in the first place. But my point is therapy is hard and it's totally down to the client (sorry) not the therapist to make the recovery possible, which is one of the reasons why I personally am much more willing to recommend SSRIs, because for one thing, clients of therapy may need "a little help" in making the very personal steps which they may have to make.

Your suggestion about cataloging her life seems to me to be a very good idea, as we've been trying to identify areas that cause the anxiety and childhood experiences are still real with her, particularly her relationships with her sister and ex. Thank you for sharing your experience, I'll show her your posting.

I'd suggest she buys a personal A4 sized notebook and basically writes a book about herself. Especially about childhood things, family, friends, teachers, bullies, playing, fights, arguments, punishments, abuse?, the whole nine yards. And try to buy any decent books about anxiety based disorders (there some very good personal real life stories from Amazon too), and tries to form links between her thoughts/feelings and what she has read about these various information sources.

HTH
Matt

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Re: Zoloft

#432411

Postby bjmarren » August 4th, 2021, 9:27 am

Hi Matt,

Don't worry, we don't take anything you say as criticism, we're very grateful that people take the time to offer help in the way of advice and their experiences to help people to try and deal with the issues. Your comments regarding that perhaps' my wife needed to be more open and forthcoming with the Psychologist may have a grain of truth there, but this is something my wife needs to realise herself, with my prompting of course. The other thing is that my opinion about the professionalism of Psychologists and Psychiatrists here, is quite low, given that environment that such sessions take place and how available they are to their patients/clients. I use the word clients, as the business element of this area of medicine is clearly a lucrative one for many so called professionals, but that is another story.

Your idea about her writing a book about herself is a very good one. I encouraged her to keep a diary about how she was feeling, since the condition starting getting worse, and this has been very useful for her, particularly when talking to the Psychiatrist. Getting things down on paper could be very therapeutic for her on its own.

Thanks once again for sharing your thoughts and experiences as this has given us other areas to look into.

Keep safe and healthy.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432439

Postby bjmarren » August 4th, 2021, 10:34 am

Hi RVF,

I agree entirely with you. My wife's real problem is not being able to sleep, and this is what's causing her the most anxiety. The Psychiatrist's reaction to this was to increase the dosage of Zoflot, one of the possible side effects is not being able to sleep. We feel that Zoflot will have no real effect until she can get a decent nights sleep, hence the Psychiatrist prescribing Clonarks, in additon, in this initial stage to allow her to get that decent nights sleep. Unfortunately when she increased the dosage of Clonareks, it resulted in an a very unpleasant side effect that she does want to happen again. Getting the Psychiatrist to understand this is not easy and we seem to be going around in circles at the moment, but we know that this will be a long road.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432463

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » August 4th, 2021, 12:29 pm

bjmarren wrote:As an addition to the above, she's using "Clonareks" to help her to sleep, as an interim measure until Zoloft really kicks in which is meant to be a couple more weeks. However, Clonareks main function is dealing with Epilepsy, according to the accompanying documentation, despite strong denials from a Neurologist and her current Psychiatrist.

I regret not replying to this particular point earlier. Basically, I'm not sure whether using a sleeper as well as an SSRI is such a great idea. Perhaps it's ok, but what I would stay is that as your wife gets used to a raised Serotonin level, since this will pull anxieties down somewhat, much better sleep is a typical effect. (Certainly so for citalopram).

I also add to try to dispel what, IMHO I believe to be, a slight urban myth, and that is that SSRIs negatively effect sleep. As I stated above my experience is the reverse. What does actually happen, is that they can initially make the patient somewhat restless (a bit hyper and overly aware) for the first few weeks, and that's why ppl recommend that they are consumed in the morning. However, once the body gets more used to the raised serotonin level, IMO this ceases to be the case. If I'm under the weather with a bad cold or flu, I want to sleep in, through out the day, I've been known to have my pill at say 1am - 5am so that I don't forget to take it later on, and then I usually fall straight back into deep sleep!! Furthermore my young relative who also takes SSRIs, takes her pill (Prozac) at tea time or straight before bed, so that it's easier for the parents to remember to remind her. The most important thing with SSRIs, I think is to stick with them (take them regularly), and be very patient, and do not just rely on them (i.e. therapy, meditation, exercise, self discovery as well), and if you ever want to stop taking them, taper the dosage off very gradually to avoid withdrawal effects.

Don't worry, we don't take anything you say as criticism, we're very grateful that people take the time to offer help in the way of advice and their experiences to help people to try and deal with the issues. Your comments regarding that perhaps' my wife needed to be more open and forthcoming with the Psychologist may have a grain of truth there, but this is something my wife needs to realise herself, with my prompting of course.

No worries. I just wanted to emphasise, that "recovery" really is a personal journey, and ppl shouldn't expect great deliverance from the therapists or the SSRIs. Those things just help out, and IMO both are worthwhile, to help find the pathway etc.

Finally a couple of true life books. It might be a plan, for your wife, to see whatever is making her feel this way, is nothing to be ashamed, and that many millions of ppl have had very similar experiences. Some have seen the light at the other end of the tunnel. Don't think of it as an illness or even health issue, it's just a condition, and one which can be tackled! I spent some time on Amazon searching for a couple of ideas (you may want to include "true life" etc. in your search string:

The first 2 are OCD related. I bought this the other week. Not read it yet.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/PURE-OCD-Invis ... 1634919912

Not got this - but I can certainly relate to it's title!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fred-Refrigera ... B07XHG57X3

A non OCD one, I think, I just found it and wondered if it would be of interest
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jump-One-Girls ... 0717186725

Matt

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Re: Zoloft

#432473

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » August 4th, 2021, 1:03 pm

Oh I nearly forgot. A good natural sleep aid. Recommended to me by a Doctor. I have tried and yes it does help. One or two banana just before you hit the sack. Make sure they aren't too ripe, in fact after they have just gone yellow, is probably the best.

Firstly they contain dopamine, and that's a happy hormone:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ish_Banana
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 085320.htm

Secondly they contain potassium to lower BP
https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsuppo ... /potassium

Thirdly the complex carbohydrate load will divert your bodys attention to working on it's digestion, not worrying about stuff!

Matt

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Re: Zoloft

#432482

Postby stevensfo » August 4th, 2021, 1:50 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
bjmarren wrote:Hi RVF,

Yes, we do find your opinion very helpful. We've been talking about changing certain aspects of my wife's lifestyle, such as her job which is working in the real estate business here, where people are unethical, dishonest, in addition to which the stress and anxiety related to getting deals completed adds to her anxiety. I've been on at her for a number of years now to change this aspect of her life and she now recognises that something has to change in this area. I personally am more sceptical than my wife about the medicinal route to bringing about change and feel that lifestyle changes, where possible, will have a more beneficial long-lasting effect. We're just at the start of the journey and really appreciate the opinion and experience of people like yourself whom have been dealing with it for years.

Brendan

I can't stress enough of my own experience that loading up with chemicals (prescription drugs) is not a solution for serious anxiety. A short term sticking plaster at best and can actually make things (much) worse at the other end of the spectrum. It sounds very much like you need to do similar to myself.

Following a period in hospital, I decided I had to reduce the stress at work. Significantly. Enough to make a difference.

That was the root cause of much (but not all) of my anxiety issues. I moved (self employed consulting engineer) from taking roles where I was a "do-er" and under great pressure to deliver the impossible within ridiculous constraints imposed by the client. My illness involved two extended periods of being out of work.

I moved to roles where I was the project or company subject matter expert and I got paid for what I knew rather than what I did. The effect on my health was miraculous.

I am now retired but looking back, I absolutely couldn't have carried on doing the roles I was doing. The last few projects I worked on in the run up to my retirement were the best jobs I ever had. In fact, to the point that they were effectively paid vacations (my work was almost always overseas). I would have done the work for free and had great satisfaction in those years of mentoring younger engineers.

The final, happy side effect was that the work was the best paid of my entire working life.

Sorry for the long reply. But from what you have said, the route forward is likely to involve lifestyle and career changes if any improvement longer term is to be realised.

Hope that helps a little.

RVF

Edited to add - Talking of chemicals, for quite a few years, rather than prescription anti depressants, I did find taking 5 HTP supplement helpful in managing moderate anxiety. Do your own research and don't combine 5 HTP with prescription medicines in my experience.


I was reading about supplements some time ago and 5HTP is simply a form of the amino acid Tryptophan during the production of serotonin and then melatonin (sleep-inducer). So it appears to be very useful. I also read that Vit D, B6 and B12 are important in this process, but trying to get any peer-reviewed info from mainly American articles is very difficult, many of which seem designed to sell you stuff.

The revelation in my case is Vitamin D, though that should be in a separate post.

Steve

PS Zoloft is more commonly known as Sertraline.

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Re: Zoloft

#432684

Postby bjmarren » August 5th, 2021, 1:45 pm

Hi Matt,

The sleeper, "Clonareks" is only meant to be taken for a couple of weeks to actually help her to sleep in the first place, which is not really happening at the moment. When the dose was increased it produced a very unpleasant side effect, which my wife does not want to experience again, so once the period is up, that will be it with Clonareks. Wiki says SSRI's can have insomnia as a side effect, which seems to be contradictory to its purpose. At the moment my wife is getting slightly more sleep, bit we won't know whether that is down to Zoloft or Clonareks until she finishes with Clonareks.
Also, the info and links about the benefits of eating bananas just before bed is contradictory to what we understood, worth more investigation, thanks for the links.

We've started some yoga and meditation and hopefully we'll see some of that in the coming weeks and months. It was something that we both wanted to do for a while now.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432686

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » August 5th, 2021, 1:52 pm

bjmarren wrote:Hi Matt,

The sleeper, "Clonareks" is only meant to be taken for a couple of weeks to actually help her to sleep in the first place, which is not really happening at the moment. When the dose was increased it produced a very unpleasant side effect, which my wife does not want to experience again, so once the period is up, that will be it with Clonareks. Wiki says SSRI's can have insomnia as a side effect, which seems to be contradictory to its purpose. At the moment my wife is getting slightly more sleep, bit we won't know whether that is down to Zoloft or Clonareks until she finishes with Clonareks.
Also, the info and links about the benefits of eating bananas just before bed is contradictory to what we understood, worth more investigation, thanks for the links.

We've started some yoga and meditation and hopefully we'll see some of that in the coming weeks and months. It was something that we both wanted to do for a while now.

Brendan

Tell your wife to take her Zoloft in the morning.

AiY

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Re: Zoloft

#432688

Postby bjmarren » August 5th, 2021, 1:58 pm

Hi Steve,

Reading the possible side effects of 5HTP on Wiki would put people off using it, although "RVF" found it useful for him, but not mixed with prescription drugs.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432689

Postby bjmarren » August 5th, 2021, 2:00 pm

Hi AIY,

Yes, she does take the Zoloft in the morning, but thanks for mentioning it again.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#432697

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » August 5th, 2021, 3:38 pm

bjmarren wrote:Wiki says SSRI's can have insomnia as a side effect

My personal experience is that this is nonsense. As I've already mentioned one can feel somewhat "overly aware" and if the initial dosage is quite high, (or the SSRI taken later in the day), then yes maybe some nighttime restlessness is possible.

But like I've already stated the increased levels of serotonin, reduce anxiety at all times of the day, and hence reduce insomnia, once one is used to the new level is familar.

Honest!

Matt

PS I'm only talking from my own experiences, but I'm sure that with some patience, your wife will be fine and the SSRIs will prove to be helpful.

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Re: Zoloft

#432820

Postby bjmarren » August 6th, 2021, 7:46 am

Hi Matt,

The accompany documentation with medicines always seems to list virtually every possible side effect that can happen, and I guess they have to even if there is a chance that just one patient maybe be negatively affected by taking the medicine. That's why the font size used is such documentation is often so small it's difficult to read and I'm sure most people simply rely on the word of their doctor as to whether a medicine is appropriate for them of mot. However, I've come across a number of doctors who prescribe things without first asking about what other medicine are being taken.

I'm hoping, as you say, that as she gets used to the dosage, it will have the necessary positive affect on her. Thanks for your re-assurance.

Brendan

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Re: Zoloft

#433121

Postby stewamax » August 7th, 2021, 1:57 pm

What follows is from observation of someone (not me) who has a Parkinson’s related illness that involves dosage with a dopamine supplement (Sinemet) and acetylcholine reuptake inhibiter* (Donepezil). Dopamine and acetylcholine are, as OP may know, two major neurotransmitters of which an imbalance – too much or too little – causes cognitive and physical mayhem.

The individual initially presented with overwhelming anxiety. She was initially offered Sertraline (generic Zoloft) that gave her hallucinations and was quickly discontinued.

After diagnosis and taking the prescribed medication (as above), she was left with sleepless and sweat-drenched nights and chest pains.
Following trials of various painkillers and stomach-acid reducers, her GP prescribed a trial of Pregabalin (which is a ‘controlled medication’ in the UK) with the rider that it may take a month or two for any results to appear. The first day she took Pregabalin she slept soundly for fourteen hours overnight. The following day her chest pains had almost disappeared. And this improvement has persisted with a low daily dose of Pregabalin (and a small reduction in the dosage of Sinemet)

I am not a medic and OP must take this observation with the usual caution!


* the acetylcholine equivalent of a seratonin SSRI

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Re: Zoloft

#433260

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » August 8th, 2021, 1:29 pm

Another good anxiety control before bed technique, is to write a list of one's current nags and worries, outside of the bedroom, and keep them away from the room of sleep. Then one's brain "knows what concerning it" but you've compartmentalised these things away from the area you've set aside for sleeping. In the past this has worked very well for me. Basically it eases one's mind into not worrying about forgetting these things, which the anxious part of the brain, thinks might need to be remembered. We need to trick our brains from time to time to correctly do our bidding!

In fact even now, since I work from home, and my bedroom is one room away from my study, if there is a work issue, that I've thought of a solution to, or that I must remember to do, then prior to bed, I'll nip into the study and just jot this down on my work pad, ready for morning.....and safely away from where I wish to not think about work.

Matt


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