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The Triple Twenty

Fitness tips, Relaxation, Mind and Body
pje16
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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510671

Postby pje16 » June 29th, 2022, 2:13 pm

I am not a fan of gyms or weights
so got a set of these recently
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0895RBSXN? ... asin_title

there are different "weight" bands
https://patient.info/news-and-features/ ... ild-muscle

and they are easy to take with you if you travel
and this video is useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ2lHMP4kco

BigB
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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510683

Postby BigB » June 29th, 2022, 2:48 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but is the stepper a little akin to using a cross trainer (bottom half anyway)?

I'm also 54, have a rower (love/hate relationship with rowing), and do some cycling and occasional running (benefit of impact for joints and bone density vs the negative impact of aching joints from running too much/too hard).

cheers, BigB

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510716

Postby ReformedCharacter » June 29th, 2022, 4:46 pm

Snorvey wrote:
Comments/criticisms welcome. And examples o fwhat you do to keep fit would be appreciated.

Cheers

Firstly, well done for doing it. I have found that the best thing, given that I want to continue to exercise for the long term, is not to make the exercises so difficult that I want to stop doing them, or injure myself. There's no point in getting fit for a couple of months then losing the fitness because you're not exercising anymore. I'm a decade older than you and I find that the fitness disappears fairly quickly unless I exercise frequently, one of the downsides to getting older.

I use an exercise bike for high intensity interval training, 20s really hard and 10s rest x 4. I do knee exercises, leg straightening with weights strapped to my ankles. I started doing those because I got knee pain, now I don't get knee pain. I use weights for shrugs and curls. I also do 'easy' sit-ups (from the edge of my bed).

RC

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510756

Postby Gerry557 » June 29th, 2022, 7:04 pm

Great you have done the hardest part, getting off the sofa.

Initially doing something is better than nothing and hopefully you will achieve some early gains that will inspire you on.

I'm not too sure of the stepper but if it gets you going all well and good. Running would help with bone density if the knees allow otherwise I would be suggesting cycling or a cross trainer. The cycling can be used like walking if necessary not just exercise based. General cycling will give you a good fitness base.

The weight training is best to aid the muscle mass issue. There are lots of body weight exercises to get you going but some simple dumbells added to that bench will work wonders.

I would do weights on a different day, 10 min cardio to warm up and 20 - 30min of training. Record what you do to see improvements. Look at doing compound exercises.

Try getting a training partner, which could be your partner. Than when you're having an off day they can cajole you along. You will often enjoy a session once started even though you didn't fancy it.

Personally I do weight lifting covering an all over body routine mainly compound moves. I've used a 4 on 1 off or a 3 times a week routine depending on how much cardio I want to fit in. I have a spin bike and xtrainer plus a couple of bikes. I'm also happy to run too. I have a bench plus bar and dumbells. There are a couple of apps that help gym ace and strava plus I also have a fitbit. The misses is my training partner. We often run together but in opposition directions so we can run at our own pace. Then catch up with each other towards the end.

There are also several HIIT programs such as Shaun T so lots of stuff on the Internet to help. I found the HIIT helped me run faster even though I couldn't walk down the stairs after the first session but you soon get used to it.

Grandkids keep you fit too.

Hallucigenia
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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510763

Postby Hallucigenia » June 29th, 2022, 8:10 pm

Snorvey wrote:improves my cardio, strengthens my ankle (& my weedy legs in general)...I'm also not a fan of impact (sore knees)....

I also have a waterrower rowing machine (4 years old now). This has been the best bit of exercise equipment I have ever, ever bought


I'm similar in terms of general requirements, although it's my knees that are the problem. And rowing was always my sport, I rowed to a decent club standard when I was younger and so I was brought up on Concepts as that's the default in the boat-rowing world.

Having tried both, personally I prefer a Concept even if it needed to go in the garage, partly for the better data handling (Waterrower are a decade behind when it comes to things like Bluetooth) and partly just because I grew up on Concepts, the Waterrower is fine though, and they are more house-friendly (although the Concepts are much less antisocial than they were).

Having let things go for some time, I went in a bit too hard and never got into a routine, whereas just doing 5min/day for a week, then 10min/day for two weeks, then 15 min/day for 2 weeks and building it up that way worked much better for me until I got up to 30-40min/day and could start dropping the odd day.

In the boat-rowing world, the standard reference piece is 2000m on a Concept - the Olympic distance on the machines that everyone has. But our main training piece was 40 minutes at aerobic threshold, a steady heartrate of 80% max heart rate (MHR, 220-age is the traditional formula, 205.8 - (0.685 × age) is more accurate) or 75% of your heart rate reserve (HRR) - see this for the latter, I imagine for you that will be aiming for somewhere around 140-145bpm.

I can row at 75% HRR for 20km or more if I want although 40 minutes (about 10km) is my usual - I aim to average 20 strokes per minute over the 40min which means about 16 spm for the first 10 minutes and then building as I get tired up to 24 spm at the end. It takes some getting used to, it means a really slow roll up the slide and then exploding off the front - the usual comparison is with riding a Spacehopper, or a frog jumping.

I tend to do all my steady-state cardio training based on a heartrate, typically 75% HRR. It's worth noting that "proper" runners are recommended to do 80-90% of their training at "easy" pace (65% HRR, say 130bpm), 10-15% at threshold and <10% flat out, but I guess they're more worried about impact injuries. When I started I was just doing steady-state stuff until I was reasonably confident I'd built up a basic level of cardio fitness. Now every so often I will do either a 2k benchmark (current target is to get back under 7 min, I was closer to 6 min back in the day) which works out around 90% HRR, or intervals. These are based on an old routine we used to do where we would pair up and then row 500m flat out (in about 1:15) whilst the other recovered, then the partner would row 500m flat out, and repeat 5 times. I've worked up from 4x200m to now doing 5x400m (about 1:20 these days) with a minute rest between each one, which gets me up to about 95% HRR and then down to 100bpm or so before going again.

It's worth noting that the above is based on Concept calibration, IME the only Waterrower where I've really paid attention was calibrated at about 60% of Concept distances (ie 1000m on a Concept is about the same as 600m on the Waterrower). Just do it on times and heartrates.

Another exercise that we used to do a lot for technique in the boat is to row say 200m or 500m at a fairly easy pace (under 25 spm) with no footstraps - you'll find it really difficult to start with but it encourages you to not hang around on the finish but get straight back into the recovery phase of the stroke. Rowing is all about technique, for efficiency and to avoid injury, but most people in gyms are pretty terrible at it - see this video to do it properly. I'm weedy compared to some of the apes you see in gyms, but my technique allows me to row much more efficiently than them, which translates into better times. So I don't find rowing boring, because I'm always thinking about my technique - I'll do things like closing my eyes for 20 seconds to really feel it, and try and hit that heartrate number every single stroke.

Also don't make the mistake of the average gym ape and think that fan setting (or water level in the case of Waterrower) is a "difficulty" level - see this. Since resistance on these things is proportional to speed, the fan/water is more like the gearing on a bike - you get the best aerobic workout by being in the "right" gear that allows you to get the rotor moving at its fastest, rather than by being in top/bottom gear which will just lead to injury. Concepts have a self-calibration which allows you to set a standard "drag factor" which may mean a fan setting of 7 on a new machine and a fan of 3 on an old battered one, where possible I aim for a Waterrower to be at the very bottom of the water range recommended for men.

So my typical trip to the gym is not too different to your programme I guess - short cycle to warm-up and get my heart up to 65-70% HRR, then 40 minutes rowing at 75% HRR, then 5 minutes 75% HRR on the Concept Skierg (my love-to-hate machine as I've no arm strength), then 15-20 minutes of strength work. But sometimes as above I'll row 2k or do intervals, in which case I'll do a bit more strength work or cardio on another machine.

I used to be terrified of running as my knees were so fragile but SWMBO got me some fancy, super-well-cushioned running shoes (after about 90 minutes of trying different ones in the ASICS shop) and with those and not overdoing things (starting with 2k, listening to when my knees got grumpy, sticking with 75% HRR), I've sort of got into it a bit. Even if I'll never run a marathon, 1-2 times a week I'll go out for either 2 miles up/down or 3 miles on the flat.

If you want more ideas of programmes, the Concept website has all sorts of ideas including a daily workout which get you doing pyramids or whatever.

Also if you've a rower and weights then you're most of the way to what you need for CrossFit. I know someone who's into it - Very Into it - and it gets a bit cult-like but the general idea is 3 days on and 1 day off with a variety of exercises that will give you a good general level of fitness rather than specialising too much in cardio, anaerobic or strength. They're very keen on rowing and weights, along with skipping (specifically "double unders") so that might be one to consider if you want to add something different. The standard routines expect people to be pretty fit but they give easy versions - I don't think I've ever done one literally but flicking through the daily routines is good inspiration if you want to do something a bit different - each has a video showing you what to do.
https://www.crossfit.com/workout/

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510791

Postby servodude » June 30th, 2022, 12:59 am

Snorvey wrote:Comments/criticisms welcome. And examples o fwhat you do to keep fit would be appreciated.


Most importantly I use the telly.

During that time a year or so ago when gyms became less of a thing and everyone was at home a bit more than we would normally be we put a nordic trainer in the basement and kitted the rest of the room out with weights and resistance bands attached to various joists/girders and a 6' mirror that was collecting dust (the daughters also strung up wires of led fairy lights so it's a bit more "insta" than it was before).

With that in place I figured I should try and replace the cycling to work on the days when I wasn't going in to the office
- but without the constant mental gymnastics required to keep track of meandering dog walkers, their dogs, cars, trucks and fat folk on their brand new electric bikes.. I got bored pretty quickly

So we upgraded our TV and I relocated the old one downstairs where it sits at just the right height for you to watch from the nordic trainer (though you can wheel it about cos it sits on my old Trace Elliot bass amp which itself is on a dolly because it is not much fun to move)
We gave that TV a chromecast (to get Netflix and Plex access as there's no antenna point under the house) and now I can tailor a workout based on whatever bit of trashy fluff I feel like watching, on the basis that if it's not doing much for the old grey matter I should at least try and use up some calories
You just set the trainer up for a resistance pattern, and try to maintain a cadence while you let your brain wander in Sunnydale

- sd

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510813

Postby BigB » June 30th, 2022, 8:56 am

Hallucigenia wrote:
Snorvey wrote:improves my cardio, strengthens my ankle (& my weedy legs in general)...I'm also not a fan of impact (sore knees)....

I also have a waterrower rowing machine (4 years old now). This has been the best bit of exercise equipment I have ever, ever bought


In the boat-rowing world, the standard reference piece is 2000m on a Concept - the Olympic distance on the machines that everyone has. But our main training piece was 40 minutes at aerobic threshold, a steady heartrate of 80% max heart rate (MHR, 220-age is the traditional formula, 205.8 - (0.685 × age) is more accurate) or 75% of your heart rate reserve (HRR) - see this for the latter, I imagine for you that will be aiming for somewhere around 140-145bpm.

I can row at 75% HRR for 20km or more if I want although 40 minutes (about 10km) is my usual - I aim to average 20 strokes per minute over the 40min which means about 16 spm for the first 10 minutes and then building as I get tired up to 24 spm at the end. It takes some getting used to, it means a really slow roll up the slide and then exploding off the front - the usual comparison is with riding a Spacehopper, or a frog jumping.


I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'm loving all the Concept2 rowing stuff - I can only rec this once. I have a C2, but have never been a proper rower.

Qq - how do you monitor HR while rowing - I have a strap monitor I pair to Wahoo head unit while cycling and can monitor as I go. A garmin watch while running. But what would I pair the strap to while rowing, and could I get the display on a unit - do I need to position my mobile in view with an app paired to the strap? I also use a Techo rowing machine in a gym (it seems differently calibrated to C2 - 1:53/500 pace feels like 2:00 on a C2)

cheers, BigB

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510824

Postby Hallucigenia » June 30th, 2022, 10:01 am

BigB wrote: I have a C2, but have never been a proper rower.

Qq - how do you monitor HR while rowing - I have a strap monitor I pair to Wahoo head unit while cycling and can monitor as I go. A garmin watch while running. But what would I pair the strap to while rowing, and could I get the display on a unit - do I need to position my mobile in view with an app paired to the strap? I also use a Techo rowing machine in a gym (it seems differently calibrated to C2 - 1:53/500 pace feels like 2:00 on a C2)


Whaaat - you have a C2 but haven't been using its "inhouse" HR capabilities? Which are excellent - as I say, they were a decade ahead of Waterrower in that regard, and the rowing community have been one of the early proponents of HR-based training. C2 support ANT+ and Bluetooth, so it's just a question of pairing the belt with the C2 via the Connect menu and it comes up on the display during rowing - if you have a little pendrive kicking around at home and you keep it in the C2 then it can store the ID of the belt and you don't have to pair it each time.

Better still, install the ErgData app on your phone and pair that with the C2 then not only can you use it as a supplementary screen (the main one I use is stroke length, which is another thing to monitor to ensure technique), but it's your gateway into all the online logbook stuff like HR charts etc. That assumes your rower dates from the last decade or so and has the PM5 monitor. If so, then the only caveat is that you need to update the firmware, particularly if it's pre-2016 - the original v12 firmware doesn't support the app, and it didn't save properly until v20 (October 2015) but now works great. They release a new one every 12-18 months or so which has generally improved things like HR belt support and the latest one will allow future updates via Bluetooth. See More Options > Utilities > More Utilities > Product ID to get the firmware version and hardware version, and go here for updating firmware : https://www.concept2.com/service/monitors/pm5/firmware

If I go to a new gym I take a pendrive with me with the updates on it, just to make sure I don't end up doing a piece on pre-v20 firmware that won't save to ErgData. I've updated dozens of gym rowers/skiers over the years as gyms never do it.

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510828

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » June 30th, 2022, 10:14 am

I've got to get something sorted. I was less than 8st at 18. I'm way to close to 14st now.

My diet's not to bad. Good amount of protein, steady on some of the carbs and a few vegetables and fruit. It's just a complete lack of exercise.

I think I need to do some resistance training, push ups and work on my tummy and some cardio.

I need to get 2-3st away.

Then there's finding the time and not sipping the odd glass of wine.

Good luck with it Snorvey

AiY(D)

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510830

Postby BigB » June 30th, 2022, 10:21 am

I think my C2 is circa 2013 and a PM4 - will wander to cabin later and check. I have a chunky micro-USB cable which attaches to the head unit for firmware updates, but not sure about any other connectivity capabilities. Will do some checking. Can you update a C2 from a PM4 to a PM5 if required?

I row on pace, generally targeting 2:00/500m (generally about 25-27 spm) and then just extending in multiples of 2000m, depending where I am in my rowing love/hate cycle.

I'm also not very weightsie, so sometimes just use rowing as a gentle upper body workout - keeps arms and shoulders feeling tight/not_weak, but admittedly not proper weight workouts.

Edit - just checked, my C2 is PM3!

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510838

Postby Hallucigenia » June 30th, 2022, 10:44 am

BigB wrote:I think my C2 is circa 2013 and a PM4 - will wander to cabin later and check. I have a chunky micro-USB cable which attaches to the head unit for firmware updates, but not sure about any other connectivity capabilities. Will do some checking. Can you update a C2 from a PM4 to a PM5 if required?


PM4s are the silver ones, they support ANT but not Bluetooth. Yes, it's no problem to update to a new monitor, they'll sell you a PM5 upgrade kit for around £150, but I must admit I've never done an upgrade myself :
https://shop-uk.concept2.com/performanc ... nitor.html

BigB wrote:Edit - just checked, my C2 is PM3!


Ah - not seen one of those for a while! In that case your options are to either get the dedicated receiver for Polar (£18) and a Polar belt, or kludge something with a generic Bluetooth belt (£25?) and an app like Wahoo on your phone (not as nice as it's not integrated onto the PM3 but it serves the purpose), or pony up for a PM5.

https://shop-uk.concept2.com/rowergs/51 ... pment.html

The PM5 experience is great, it's rock-solid and beautifully integrated into the ecosystem with ErgData and the online logbook, so I would never advise against it, but it is quite a bit more money than the other options so it depends what you think you will use.

Edit - just noticed you're using Wahoo for your bike, so yes that works. At least it will give you an idea of what HR monitoring brings to rowing before deciding whether to spend money on a more integrated solution.
Last edited by Hallucigenia on June 30th, 2022, 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510842

Postby Hallucigenia » June 30th, 2022, 10:56 am

Snorvey wrote:I looked at both the C2 & the Waterrower. My mate has an older C2 and I've used one in a gym. I preferred the C2, but I couldn't face going into the freezing garage to row in the winter and, at the time, the least little barrier in my way was actually a pretty big barrier. And the C2 is a bit too industrial for my liking - and noiser. So if I had a dedicated gym in my house, then yes.

The Waterrower does look good in the house and its a great talking point for guests


Yep, can't argue with any of that. Don't get me wrong - I've used both and they both work, they're just slightly different beasts. If I was buying one that had to go in a living room, I'd buy a Waterrower - with the Bluetooth addon or Smartrow. But otherwise it would be a Concept - partly because I'm just used to the feel, partly because my internal benchmarks for how I am doing are all based on Concept times and I get a bit antsy if I don't know where I'm at, and partly just because the data side is just done so well and that's important to me as a data guy.

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510850

Postby BigB » June 30th, 2022, 11:16 am

Hallucigenia wrote:
BigB wrote:I think my C2 is circa 2013 and a PM4 - will wander to cabin later and check. I have a chunky micro-USB cable which attaches to the head unit for firmware updates, but not sure about any other connectivity capabilities. Will do some checking. Can you update a C2 from a PM4 to a PM5 if required?


PM4s are the silver ones, they support ANT but not Bluetooth. Yes, it's no problem to update to a new monitor, they'll sell you a PM5 upgrade kit for around £150, but I must admit I've never done an upgrade myself :
https://shop-uk.concept2.com/performanc ... nitor.html

BigB wrote:Edit - just checked, my C2 is PM3!


Ah - not seen one of those for a while! In that case your options are to either get the dedicated receiver for Polar (£18) and a Polar belt, or kludge something with a generic Bluetooth belt (£25?) and an app like Wahoo on your phone (not as nice as it's not integrated onto the PM3 but it serves the purpose), or pony up for a PM5.

https://shop-uk.concept2.com/rowergs/51 ... pment.html

The PM5 experience is great, it's rock-solid and beautifully integrated into the ecosystem with ErgData and the online logbook, so I would never advise against it, but it is quite a bit more money than the other options so it depends what you think you will use.

Edit - just noticed you're using Wahoo for your bike, so yes that works. At least it will give you an idea of what HR monitoring brings to rowing before deciding whether to spend money on a more integrated solution.


Not a fan of a messy/cabled solution for PM3, so would look to update to the PM5 monitor and pair with Wahoo HR strap, or go full hog and update whole kit to PM5 - but that seems unnecessary if the monitor upgrade works. My C2 has only about 900-1000 kms on it so plenty of life left I assume.

Presumably the actual rower is much the same - I much prefer the feel of the C2 action over the Techno I use in the gym.

Edit - sorry, forgot to say thanks for all this help H. Thank you.

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510877

Postby Hallucigenia » June 30th, 2022, 1:12 pm

BigB wrote:Not a fan of a messy/cabled solution for PM3, so would look to update to the PM5 monitor and pair with Wahoo HR strap, or go full hog and update whole kit to PM5 - but that seems unnecessary if the monitor upgrade works. My C2 has only about 900-1000 kms on it so plenty of life left I assume.

Presumably the actual rower is much the same


PM5 refers just to the electronics, if by "whole kit to PM5" you mean getting a whole new rower then no, you shouldn't need to do that. Yep, they're all pretty similar - newer ones have a bit more compact rotor, airflow is somewhat better controlled, but backwards compatibility is important to them so they don't change that much.

1000km is nothing, C2 have a Million Metre club, some people are doing that much every month! I don't know how they find the time as it's 3/4 of a marathon every day, but they're on the leaderboards with that.

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510884

Postby Hallucigenia » June 30th, 2022, 1:56 pm

Snorvey wrote:Jesus, 20 miles a day. I think I'm was doing about 30 odd miles a week at most.

No, I'm not going to try harder thank you very much.


Data is great :-)

It gets worse - if you look at the top of the rankings, different people have managed 93km per day in each of the last two years for a total of just over 21,000 miles in the year, this year there's a 69yo who's averaging 110km per day which would take him over 40,000km for the year....

https://log.concept2.com/challenges/season/2023/10000 (change year in right sidebar)

Did I say CrossFit was a cult? Perhaps I should be looking closer to home...

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510892

Postby BigB » June 30th, 2022, 2:50 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:
Snorvey wrote:Jesus, 20 miles a day. I think I'm was doing about 30 odd miles a week at most.

No, I'm not going to try harder thank you very much.


Data is great :-)

It gets worse - if you look at the top of the rankings, different people have managed 93km per day in each of the last two years for a total of just over 21,000 miles in the year, this year there's a 69yo who's averaging 110km per day which would take him over 40,000km for the year....

https://log.concept2.com/challenges/season/2023/10000 (change year in right sidebar)

Did I say CrossFit was a cult? Perhaps I should be looking closer to home...


Good grief! I once rowed a marathon on a C2 about 10 years ago, took me about 3 hours - and there are people doing this every day !!

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#510903

Postby Hallucigenia » June 30th, 2022, 3:35 pm

BigB wrote:Good grief! I once rowed a marathon on a C2 about 10 years ago, took me about 3 hours - and there are people doing this every day !!


At 20kph it's 38.5 hours per week, at 15kph it's 51.3 hours per week - it's like a full-time job. Maybe he's got his rower hooked up to a dynamo and is running his house off it?

And think of the amount of food needed to keep up that effort - if you say 60kcal per km, that's 6600kcal per day just to sustain the rowing.

Some people in this world are just not quite right in the head. Still, it's something to do in retirement I guess, keep you busy.

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Re: The Triple Twenty

#511319

Postby pje16 » July 2nd, 2022, 12:00 pm

Doesn't help if you are dopey
but ouch
glad it wasn't my tackle !!


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