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Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
servodude
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#342660

Postby servodude » September 25th, 2020, 1:14 am

look wrote:he wrote a book with the title "stop your doctor killing you".

he also wrote a book called "I Hope Your Penis Shrivels Up" (https://www.bookdepository.com/I-Hope-Y ... 1898947059)
- he's an "agony columnist"; his stock-in-trade is tabloid trash

look wrote:my point is that we should have more right to decide what medicines to buy without needing a receipt.


prior to coronavirus overtaking it antimicrobial resistance was one of the biggest concerns in health (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_resistance)
- driven by over use of antibiotics particularly in countries where their use is under-regulated (where they are available over the counter)

I am certainly not a fan of medicines being used to exploit ill people for profit (e.g. Daraprim)
I am similarly not a fan of them being available without due care; that endangers everyone

- sd

look
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#342661

Postby look » September 25th, 2020, 4:59 am

servodude wrote:
look wrote:he wrote a book with the title "stop your doctor killing you".

he also wrote a book called "I Hope Your Penis Shrivels Up" (https://www.bookdepository.com/I-Hope-Y ... 1898947059)
- he's an "agony columnist"; his stock-in-trade is tabloid trash

look wrote:my point is that we should have more right to decide what medicines to buy without needing a receipt.


prior to coronavirus overtaking it antimicrobial resistance was one of the biggest concerns in health (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_resistance)
- driven by over use of antibiotics particularly in countries where their use is under-regulated (where they are available over the counter)

I am certainly not a fan of medicines being used to exploit ill people for profit (e.g. Daraprim)
I am similarly not a fan of them being available without due care; that endangers everyone

- sd


examples of medicines that should be liberated without receipt:

chloroquine, hidroxichloroquine, ivermectine, some others to treat covid, low dosis naltrexone, lithium orotate, german Nohascheck balsam, etc.

the last it seems exist only in south brazil, and is sometimes produced, the problem is not the receipt, it's not allowed to be manufactured the most time.

about antibiotics, i am not a fan of them, i didn't read your link yet, but my idea is that a guy can be against liberation, but everytime one person dies because he couldn't afford it, the defensors of the receipt must be executed (dead penalty). I don't accept guardianship without responsability.

a friend of me that is a civil engineer thinks like you.

look
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#343061

Postby look » September 26th, 2020, 6:03 pm

10% of severe cases of covid are due auto immune attack. I think in this cases (and more) naltrexone in low dosis could be good.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 141529.htm

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#343615

Postby look » September 29th, 2020, 4:18 am

servodude wrote:
look wrote:he wrote a book with the title "stop your doctor killing you".

he also wrote a book called "I Hope Your Penis Shrivels Up" (https://www.bookdepository.com/I-Hope-Y ... 1898947059)
- he's an "agony columnist"; his stock-in-trade is tabloid trash

look wrote:my point is that we should have more right to decide what medicines to buy without needing a receipt.


prior to coronavirus overtaking it antimicrobial resistance was one of the biggest concerns in health (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_resistance)
- driven by over use of antibiotics particularly in countries where their use is under-regulated (where they are available over the counter)

I am certainly not a fan of medicines being used to exploit ill people for profit (e.g. Daraprim)
I am similarly not a fan of them being available without due care; that endangers everyone

- sd



I read the link to wikipedia. There are explanations of several things that can improve the resistence of virus, bacteria and some others. All the manners that can improve resistence make sense, but there not one proof...

i am still against the false guardianship. Before attacking sick persons they should attack the use of antibiotics for meat and several other manners that can increase resistence that are explained in the link.

what would you say if a father, a mother a son or a daughter could not afford a medicine because of the medical authorities and the victim dies, and you discovers latter that that was the best medicine for the case. Woudn't you say that the guys are assassins?

for prevent a person to use a treatment, doctors opinion is suspected, and i think it's a basic and importantant right.

there was a case with the influenza h1n1 when the "doctors" didn't let the victims use the best remedy.



.

servodude
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#343617

Postby servodude » September 29th, 2020, 5:10 am

look wrote:they should attack the use of antibiotics for meat and several other manners that can increase resistence that are explained in the link


they do and I am all for it!

- sd

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#343703

Postby bungeejumper » September 29th, 2020, 1:22 pm

look wrote:[Vernon Coleman] wrote a book with the title "stop your doctor killing you".
yesterday i serched a bit about him, he wrote more than 100 books about several issues.

It strikes me that a man who writes more than 100 books about anything is 99% sure to be a charlatan or a cheapskate populist. Either he failed to get his point across properly the first time, and he's been shifting his position ever since. Or else he's spreading himself too thinly across dozens of subjects to be considered a serious authority on any of them. :|

Other candidates: L Ron Hubbard (1,084 books). Barbara Cartland (740 books.) Not forgetting Sao Paulo's very own Ryoki Inoue (1,075 books).

BJ (11 books, since you ask. :lol: )

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#343807

Postby look » September 29th, 2020, 11:25 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
look wrote:[Vernon Coleman] wrote a book with the title "stop your doctor killing you".
yesterday i serched a bit about him, he wrote more than 100 books about several issues.

It strikes me that a man who writes more than 100 books about anything is 99% sure to be a charlatan or a cheapskate populist. Either he failed to get his point across properly the first time, and he's been shifting his position ever since. Or else he's spreading himself too thinly across dozens of subjects to be considered a serious authority on any of them. :|

Other candidates: L Ron Hubbard (1,084 books). Barbara Cartland (740 books.) Not forgetting Sao Paulo's very own Ryoki Inoue (1,075 books).

BJ (11 books, since you ask. :lol: )


It'a not clear in my post, but the fact that he wrote more than 100 books about several issues is not very good. But he workt as a doctor, this has importance.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#343809

Postby look » September 29th, 2020, 11:30 pm

look wrote:i don't accept doctors as guardians. There are too much medicines that need receipt. this should be drastically reduced.
doctors are not representative of God.

There are iatrogenic diseases. During medical strikes, the mortality diminishes. The link is about these issues.

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialSciences ... by%2035%25.


an excerpt from the link:

he June 10, 2000 issue of the British Medical journal reports on an interesting statistic that has occurred in Israel. It seems that three months ago physicians in public hospitals implemented a program of sanctions in response to a labor dispute over a contract proposal by the government. The article stated that the Israel Medical Association began an action in March to protest against the treasurys proposed imposition of a new four year wage contract for doctors. Since then, the medical doctors have cancelled hundreds of thousands of visits to outpatient clinics and have postponed tens of thousands of elective operations.

To find out whether the industrial action was affecting deaths in the country, the Jerusalem Post interviewed non-profit making Jewish burial societies, which perform funerals for the vast majority of Israelis. Hananya Shahor, the veteran director of Jerusalems Kehilat Yerushalayim burial society said, "The number of funerals we have performed has fallen drastically." Meir Adler, manager of the Shamgar Funeral Parlour, which buries most other residents of Jerusalem, declared with much more certainty: "There definitely is a connection between the doctors sanctions and fewer deaths. We saw the same thing in 1983 when the Israel Medical Association applied sanctions for four and a half months."

my opinion: considering that the mortality during doctor's strikes diminished everywhere we can't accept doctors influencing about what medicines should be sold or not, SPECIALLY in cases of pandemics.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#343875

Postby bungeejumper » September 30th, 2020, 10:35 am

look wrote:my opinion: considering that the mortality during doctor's strikes diminished everywhere we can't accept doctors influencing about what medicines should be sold or not, SPECIALLY in cases of pandemics.

Leaving aside the fact that you're trying to present a 20 year old occurrence as a current phenomenon, is there actually any way in which the two claims you've just made intersect with each other?

You say that mortality (in 2000 Israel) dropped while doctors were on strike. And you say that doctors shouldn't be allowed to control which drugs are made available to the public. Yet you fail to make any link between the two. Or even to attempt it.

FWIW, Israel's doctors are currently threatening short-term strike action again, but only because they say the government has critically underfunded the health service under the strains of Covid. The fact that new Covid infections topped 8,000 a day last week, among a population of just nine million, suggests that they might have a point? ;)

BJ

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#344005

Postby AnnaD13 » September 30th, 2020, 4:54 pm

How Vaccines Work

Image


Source: creazilla.com/nodes/19975-how-vaccines-work-vector
Moderator Message:
Moved here because it is more health information than company news. - Chris
Last edited by csearle on September 30th, 2020, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Explaining to new user why I moved the post,

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#344016

Postby look » September 30th, 2020, 5:40 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
look wrote:my opinion: considering that the mortality during doctor's strikes diminished everywhere we can't accept doctors influencing about what medicines should be sold or not, SPECIALLY in cases of pandemics.

Leaving aside the fact that you're trying to present a 20 year old occurrence as a current phenomenon, is there actually any way in which the two claims you've just made intersect with each other?

You say that mortality (in 2000 Israel) dropped while doctors were on strike. And you say that doctors shouldn't be allowed to control which drugs are made available to the public. Yet you fail to make any link between the two. Or even to attempt it.

FWIW, Israel's doctors are currently threatening short-term strike action again, but only because they say the government has critically underfunded the health service under the strains of Covid. The fact that new Covid infections topped 8,000 a day last week, among a population of just nine million, suggests that they might have a point? ;)

BJ


Are you a doctor?

it's obvius that threatening a strike can´t reduce the mortality, they must effectively strike to reduce the mortality.
About the reduction in mortality during doctor's strikes, the link shows several cases.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#344088

Postby XFool » September 30th, 2020, 10:57 pm

look wrote:one guy think the chinese are moving a bio war.

There's always "one guy". At least... :roll:

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#344123

Postby bungeejumper » October 1st, 2020, 8:57 am

look wrote:Are you a doctor?

Nope, and I really, really hope that you aren't. :lol:
it's obvius that threatening a strike can´t reduce the mortality, they must effectively strike to reduce the mortality.

I've tried turning that sentence upside down and inside out, and I've tried reading it from right to left, but I still can't turn it into sense. With Covid infections and deaths both on the rise in Israel (and Brazil), you're seriously suggesting that the answer would be to have fewer doctors on the case?

Because people should be freed from their reliance on the doctors to get the medications they want? Even if the medications they want are untested, unapproved for purpose, and certified only for diseases that aren't the ones they've got? And you want to be able to buy them freely in the shops without prescribed dosages?

Because the doctors are being bribed by the pharmaceutical companies to push the drugs which you say they aren't willing to prescribe?

My friend, you are looking at the world through a lens which the rest of us don't have.

BJ

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#344310

Postby look » October 1st, 2020, 9:42 pm

I'm given low dosis naltrexone for my mother since 2 years. naltrexone is approved in dosis of 50 mg to treat some vices.
In 1989 a doctor working in Mew York discovered other usesfor low dosis from 1.5 to 4.5 mg. So it's not sold in pharmacies at that dosis. The alternative are i call as manipulation pharmacies. But a doctor's receipt is needed. This drug make the antibodies work correctly, so that they stop to kill cells of the own body. But it doesn't cure. When the guy stops to use it, the situation returns as it was before the guy use the remedy.

Every two months I must pay a doctor for a receipt. And I must pretend that we are interested in using all what the doctor recomends. We are at the second doctor. it's not easy to convince a doctor to give a remedy that is not in his or her agenda.
Im sure ais helping for my mother's alzheimer, without doing miracles. During the time i give it for my mother, she never attacked with danger.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#345446

Postby alphab1 » October 5th, 2020, 7:08 pm

Hi,

I apologize if this issue has already been discussed.

If we accept that most of the new cases of Covid do not lead to hospital visit, not to speak of death, then why create panic and shut down economic and social activities, schools, colleges etc? Today's total number of new cases is 12,594 and of new deaths is 19. Comparing the plots of daily new cases and daily new deaths from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ shows the daily death curve is almost flat and remained flat for the last three months compared with that for daily new cases. 19 deaths in a population of more than 67 million should not be a reason to shut down a country. If infected persons do not show any serious symptoms and get normal with over-the-counter medication then why not accept this as a feature of this virus at this late stage and be prepared to live with it?

alpha

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#345460

Postby johnhemming » October 5th, 2020, 8:13 pm

The difficulty is that normally about 20-25% of hospital admissions result in someone dying. Given that we are running at about 360 admissions a day that would result in 90 deaths a day. The fear of the government is that this could grow to tens of thousands of admissions per day. I don't personally think that would happen.

However, that is where the government are coming from.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#345470

Postby neversay » October 5th, 2020, 8:50 pm

@johnhemming has answered more succinctly, but here was my verbose and poorly worded work in progress reply:

There are many times more actual cases (include asymptomatic, mild, or untested) than tested positive cases which are leading indicators of hospitalisations and then deaths. The current demographic for the positive cases are in younger and healthier people, but as the number of actual cases grows it will give more vectors for the infection of those who are clinically vulnerable (hence more likely to die). The issue is these leading and lagging indicators, along with interventions and their consequences, are all heavily time-shifted.

Healthcare capacity is the other side of the equation: "In 2011/12 there were around 5,400 critical care beds, by 2019/20 this had risen to 5,900 (NHS England 2019b) (Figure 5). Of these, around 70 per cent are for use by adults and the remainder for children and infants." [https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbers]. Of course we now have other wards/hospitals cleared and the Nightingale facilities, but that's a finite amount of beds. However, the issue is that the number of critical care staff is far less scalable and fungible.

This time around any peak of infections, of the same un-mutated virus, would also coincide with conventional winter loads*. So the actual capacity for cases is very limited.

So it's all still about flattening the curve. The Government is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they let the virus rip then we'll see the death toll rise rapidly just as before, with the hindsight hysteria of the press, public and political opponents deeming it 'unacceptable'. If they are successful in their measures to reduce the vectors for infection then people will complain that the low death toll means it was a waste of time because of the economic impact, social impact and other life-years lost in collateral damage (cancer, suicides, etc).

The assessments on the cost-benefits (life-years saved v economic/societal cost) of different interventions gives some apparently nonsensical trade-offs. If closing the pubs at 10pm can shave 0.5% off total infections, then that might be the 0.5% of curve flattening sufficient to keep the schools open for longer. The public won't understand the 'arbitrary' time of 10pm but the portfolio of measures have to balance the risks versus the benefits. Likewise many of the interventions will not be understood as they have behavioural underpinning. Tell people to allow 2m and they will still pass at 1m. If they'd told people 1m then the public would pretty much forget distancing as they were so close anyway.

Many will argue about the 'science' behind the epidemiological model and each of the underlying parameter sensitivies (e.g. 2m v 1m) but, speaking as someone who builds models for a living, I believe they will be getting the balance about right. The epidemiological model of infections is relatively straightforward, but the parameter sensitivies are a probabilistic curve rather than a fix value. So the assessments are based on an ensemble of probabilities that don't require an individual parameter to be exact. (Plus a margin of risk/error is added as part of the precautionary principle). So it doesn't all fall down on Prof Ferguson's magical model.

(*- we should expect that other seasonal infections like flu will be lighter due to the same control measures, but other illnesses will not, e.g. breathing difficulties, heart attacks, etc.)

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#345481

Postby Lanark » October 5th, 2020, 10:07 pm

With Covid, deaths tend to lag infection by around 6 weeks, so if you wait until there are say 50 deaths per day. It is too late, even if you lockdown everything with 100% compliance you will still have all the infections (that have been exponentially growing) from the previous 6 weeks or so to work through.
If as is likely, the infections had been doubling every 5 days during those preceding 6 weeks, then those 50 deaths per day, will grow to 1600 deaths per day by the time 6 weeks are up. That of course is an absolute best case number, it could easily grow to hundreds of thousands of deaths per month if badly managed.

This is why it's best to ignore death rates and concentrate on lowering infection rates. We know this is a lethal disease that aspect does not need to be tested.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#345500

Postby alphab1 » October 6th, 2020, 1:21 am

Let us assume that out of 12590 persons detected to have Covid today some 400 or so are hospitalized eventually. Should we not want to know what happened to the other 12000 odd found also to have Covid? They survived with perhaps some OTC medicines. Btw, in a normal October how many patients need ventilators and how does that compare with the number due to Covid? ("With hospital admissions also now rising again, the latest government data shows 368 patients receiving mechanical ventilation, the highest figure since June".)

We should be more interested to know who the hospitalized 400 patients are, their age and how they contracted the virus. They need 'contact tracing' in depth which should be relatively easy as the number is small. It is possible that these are mostly senior people or people with existing cardiovascular illness. They might have contracted the virus by being close to young family members who did not show any symptoms but carried the virus. Or they might have visited crowded pubs. If these assumptions are correct, the government advisors should be alerted to these issues so that they don't continue to give the government wrong advise.

I do not know how these specialists are selected, but it is time that intelligent citizens should challenge them. It is possible that they are panicked and are playing safe for their reputation. Good advisors should balance their medical expertise with the understanding of the economical and sociological damage their advice may cause.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#345506

Postby JohnB » October 6th, 2020, 6:11 am

@alphab1 the difference between the 12000 and the 400 is not strains of the virus, but people's very varied reaction to it. You need to track them all.

You could argue that we should let everyone catch the virus at once. .5% of the population die in hospital corridors but the economy has a small hit. But if you are unhappy with 500000 deaths, you try and postpone infections so ICU beds are available and a vaccination programme starting in Jan means most people never catch it.

Current infection, hospitalisation and death rates are not an absolute problem, but look at the doubling time. We don't want everyone to be sick in Nov if they could be vaccinated in the Spring.

Modelling transmission rates is straightforward, modelling mitigation methods is very hard, as we've never pulled those levers in sociery.


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