Total Shareholder Return

[ron505]

Can anyone recommend a good website which provides/calculates total shareholder return over long periods? Ideally one where you can enter the stock and date purchased and have it calculate the total shareholder return over the period.

Thanks

Ron

[Pastcaring]

Can anyone recommend a good website which provides/calculates total shareholder return over long periods? Ideally one where you can enter the stock and date purchased and have it calculate the total shareholder return over the period.

Thanks

Ron

I don' t know of any,but you have asked the perfect question and exactly what should be done.

The accumulation index would be as close as you can get probably.I never look at it for Australia as it only gives a false answer.
I.E $1000 invested on 1/1/1980 has grown to around $ 70K now,that is correct.The difficult bit is trying to work out what the costs of an index fund have been since 1980.At a very rough guess I just say they have taken one third of your money.Round it whichever way you like,from the 70 you have $45K and the fund managers have 25.Or you have 50 and the managers have 20.

Australian companies tend to pay high dividends,so I operate on 6% growth in shareholding and price over a long period .Thus CBA was $6 a share in 1990 ish,shareholding doubles every 12 years so coming up to 30 years later you have 6,000 shares at $75 each,$450K.Round it down to 5,000 shares if you like.The perfect way to teach why the tortoise beats the hare,do nothing at all for 30 years and let the directors get on with running the company.That is based on buying 1000 shares of course in 1990.The shareholder breakdown tells me that nobody is going to do that,around 0.4% of the population owns 1000 shares in that company now.They' d rather spend the 30 years saying " insert name of company here went bust". "All you have to do is find some body that owned shares in a company that went bust and ask them" Seems to be a really stupid idea to me, I' d rather find somebody that made millions from investing and ask them how they did that.

To get a rough idea just look at a chart,BP chart tells me that July 1988 they were £ 1.20 per share .Buy 1000 then, say you have 5000 shares now by reinvesting all dividends ,wonderful growth over the years.Do that with any company and you get a rough idea of long term TSR returns,just by doing nothing at all .

Some companies don' t have a DRP which annoys me.The best performing company I have is one of them,shares that cost me around $ 1.50 in the mid 1990s are over $40 now.No DRP so if I bought 1000 then I still have 1000 now.If I was sitting here with 5 or six thousand of them I would be very happy,$1500 becomes $250,000 roughly over that period.The dividend on $250K would be great,sadly no DRP ,so $ 1500 grows to around $41,000. A yield of around 5% on $40K is not much ,the ba#$&% D's.

Wonderful question,TSR is always the way to get rich.

[Pastcaring]

The market has just opened,here,so I' m off out on my bike.Keep fit to spend the money.

Australian banks are always the top subject.
The experts are are saying as always,wouldn' t buy them.They are always saying there is no growth in the future for them.You need growth,anyone that owns them should sell them,come to me ,I know which companies will grow in the future.Never just look at the dividends,you need capital.

So I sit listening to a clown.A few million dollars worth of bank shares,producing a very high six figure income.Possibly I have 10 years of life left in me.

The clown tells me I shouldn't be concentrating on the dividends,I need capital growth.

The interviewer steps right out of line and points out the obvious.What about people that have held onto shares for 40 years.They have a huge CGT bill if they sell.They are collecting a very good dividend

The clown says they should still sell.They don' t know how long they are going to live,they need capital growth .They should not be concentrating on the income.

I think I' ll just continue to concentrate on the income.As long as they keep paying dividends I am laughing.Share doesn' t matter at all.I don' t think they are going bust,there is a small chance of dividend cuts as the economy stalls.

Thankfully by aiming for a high income even if it halves I am still laughing.

You decide for yourself,TSR over the long term ,or a man with a very strong vested interest in selling you a product.

[ron505]

So a slightly different question:

If it's not easy to see TSR over time (I'm guessing it isn't as no-one has posted a link), how best for small investors to track whether their individual investments have beaten the market over time?

On a capital gain basis, very simple, but if you tend to buy shares with a high dividend yield your capital gain could be significantly less than the market over a long period while your overall return could still be better.

[tjh290633]

If you are prepared to do a little spreadsheet work, it is relatively simple for both individual shares and a portfolio.

Fundamentally you need a cash flow statement, with cash in (negative) when shares are bought, cash out (positive) when dividends are paid, shares sold and the present value, and the dates associated with each activity. You then use Excel's XIRR function to give you the Total Return. You also need the TR version of the relevant index for the start and finish dates to get the comparison.

For the entire portfolio, if dividends are reinvested inside the portfolio, you only need cash in and out and the relevant dates. Likewise if dividends are reinvested in the share from which they come.

Have a go.

TJH

[OhNoNotimAgain]

Can anyone recommend a good website which provides/calculates total shareholder return over long periods? Ideally one where you can enter the stock and date purchased and have it calculate the total shareholder return over the period.

Thanks

Ron

Bloomberg.

[hiriskpaul]

So a slightly different question:

If it's not easy to see TSR over time (I'm guessing it isn't as no-one has posted a link), how best for small investors to track whether their individual investments have beaten the market over time?

On a capital gain basis, very simple, but if you tend to buy shares with a high dividend yield your capital gain could be significantly less than the market over a long period while your overall return could still be better.

Depends what you mean by Total Shareholder Return. There are 2 different versions of "Total Return" in general use. The first is simply the sum of all the dividends plus the change in value of the security, divided by the original value of the security. VCTs tend to quote this as a measure of performance. The other more mainstream, as used by FTSE, MSCI, etc., is to assume reinvestment of each dividend into the security and then compare the total value on one date with the value on a previous date. This is probably the version you want to use for comparison purposes, but to calculate it you need to know the dividend amount and security price for each dividend, which can be a bit of a chore to get hold of. The share price you want by the way is not the one on the dividend payment date, but on ex dividend date (just to make it that bit harder for you!). TR's are calculated this way to eliminate additional volatility which would creep in due to drops in share prices on ex dividend dates.

AFAIK the normal Bloomberg web site will not calculate total return for shares, although the paid for Bloomberg Terminal probably does and I suspect is what OhNoNotimAgain is referring to and probably has access to.

TJH's suggestion of using XIRR will not work by the way. XIRR calculates the internal rate of return (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_rate_of_return), which can be a very useful measure, but will not give you total return. The total return you want in order to compare share total returns with say the FTSE 100 total return will depend on the share price at each dividend reinvestment date. Total return can be quite different to IRR as it depends on the path of the share price.

[Alaric]

The total return you want in order to compare share total returns with say the FTSE 100 total return will depend on the share price at each dividend reinvestment date.

Morningstar will calculate it and if you are logged into an account at ii.co.uk, you can view it under "UK Company Research".

For example it quotes the current annualised 5 year total return on the FTSE 100 in Sterling as 6.00% with BP a bit ahead at 6.72%. Shell (B shares) on the other hand lag at 5.14%.

Other Brokers may have similar research features.