Finding estate assets

[Arizona11]

If a person living on their own should die, leaving a will, how does the executor find the estate assets if the deceased has not written everything down somewhere as a guide. I am particularly thinking about the large number of assets these days which are held electronically. For example, if you have a bank account online and a stock broker account online, these organisations rarely send physical letters to the account holder. So how will the executor know that these online accounts even exist?

Even if the organisations do send an email advising that statements are now available online, who will see the email?


Thanks

[Lootman]

If a person living on their own should die, leaving a will, how does the executor find the estate assets if the deceased has not written everything down somewhere as a guide. I am particularly thinking about the large number of assets these days which are held electronically. For example, if you have a bank account online and a stock broker account online, these organisations rarely send physical letters to the account holder. So how will the executor know that these online accounts even exist?

Even if the organisations do send an email advising that statements are now available online, who will see the email?

Another question might be why an executor would agree to do such a job? If he/she is a beneficiary, as happens many times, then there is the motivation.

But if I were in that position, and I was not named as a (major) beneficiary, then I would be very tempted to renounce the role and tell the beneficiaries that if they want their money they are going to have to find it themselves!

That said, is there a tax return? Are bills and credit card statements paid by direct debit or standing order? What about a state pension? How was it paid? How were insurance premia, council tax payments and vehicle expenses paid? Those institutions and entities may know some account details.

[scrumpyjack]

This website gives some ideas of what can be done

https://www.estatesearch.co.uk/new-indu ... abilities/

In addition if you can find previous tax returns they may help.

[9873210]

If a person living on their own should die, leaving a will, how does the executor find the estate assets if the deceased has not written everything down somewhere as a guide. I am particularly thinking about the large number of assets these days which are held electronically. For example, if you have a bank account online and a stock broker account online, these organisations rarely send physical letters to the account holder. So how will the executor know that these online accounts even exist?

Even if the organisations do send an email advising that statements are now available online, who will see the email?


Thanks

As a person who lives alone I make sure that all financial assets come with at least a quarterly snail mail statement. My heirs are aware of this. Some of them call me a dinosaur. And yes, this means there are companies I will not do business with.

In principal I have nothing against email. It would love it if I could have an email address that would receive all statements and could be cleanly picked up by my executor. But even though I've been using email for over 30 years both company handling of email and email providers themselves are still far too fickle for long term plans.

[Midsmartin]

Email and other documents may be stored on their computer and easily recoverable even if you don't know the password. Perhaps their passwords are stored in a notebook.

[swill453]

There have been many "dying tidily" threads here over the years. I favour a simple spreadsheet with institutions and account numbers. Printed out and placed in a prominent location, try to think of the first place someone might look. I have mine in the very first pocket of my paperwork concertina file. Kept up to date and refreshed as necessary.

Certainly no need for logins, passwords etc. Most things after death are better done with snail mail, there won't be any hurry.

(Making sure dependants have the wherewithal to carry on day-to-day is a different subject.)

Scott.

[9873210]

Email and other documents may be stored on their computer and easily recoverable even if you don't know the password. Perhaps their passwords are stored in a notebook.

ong.
Heirs don't need and should not have passwords. They should not need account numbers. Company names should be sufficient. The executor should either cash out accounts or transfer the assets to a new account in the name of the estate or heir.

If the information on your computer is easily recoverable without a password you're doing it wrong.

[Arizona11]

Thanks for the answers so far.

My thoughts are that an elderly or retired person would probably not be making a tax return, so that is unlikely to be an option.

The other problem is how an executor would know that the deceased has accounts online, so wouldn’t know where to start. For example, will they want to contact every bank or building society to find out if they hold an account? Most financial organisations don’t make any physical contact at all if you have opted out and chosen to receive all communication electronically.

The estate website search link confirms that everything these days being electronically held does cause problems and there are billions of pounds in unclaimed or dormant accounts. Even if a financial company writes to the last known address, the new owner of the property make choose to throw such communications in the bin. It really is a dilemma.

I realise that everyone needs to ensure their assets can be located upon their death but many don’t make sufficient provisions or may pass away before they have had time to organise that.

[Midsmartin]

. the information on your computer is easily recoverable without a password you're doing it wrong

I agree. But the OP appears to describe a case where there are no paper documents; a mystery to solve where the deceased had left no visible trace of where his assets are stashed.
I was offering one possible route to finding them. People often save information on their home computer. Usually home computers are not encrypted, and thus the contents can be read simply by plugging the hard drive into another pc, even if password protected, potentially revealing the names of institutions to contact in the absence of any paperwork.

[richfool]

Yes, I have had similar thoughts to the OP's. For example, savings with companies like Marcus or (Transfer)Wise.

I have left some written record/notes, but a clue might be to check through (the deceased's) bank statement, or ask his bank for a list of standing orders and direct debit on his account. They might give some clues.

[Arizona11]

Yes, I have had similar thoughts to the OP's. For example, savings with companies like Marcus or (Transfer)Wise.

I have left some written record/notes, but a clue might be to check through (the deceased's) bank statement, or ask his bank for a list of standing orders and direct debit on his account. They might give some clues.

This is a very good point you have raised. Ones bank account is usually used to move money to and from online accounts, so that may work pretty well.

[Lootman]

Heirs don't need and should not have passwords. They should not need account numbers.

I can think of a few examples where my next of kin having my PINs and passwords would be extremely useful.

Obviously I would have to trust them not to run off with what is mine. But given that, it is almost a de facto poor man's power of attorney.

[Alaric]

This is a very good point you have raised. Ones bank account is usually used to move money to and from online accounts, so that may work pretty well.

That's not terribly helpful if the owner of the bank account has dispensed with paper statements and for that matter cheque books and paying in slips. So there may be no clues as to the whereabouts of the bank account.

I could suggest putting everything on a memory stick, but they are so small as to easily be lost or mislaid. A file or folder containing physical paper is or should be more conspicuous.

[9873210]

This is a very good point you have raised. Ones bank account is usually used to move money to and from online accounts, so that may work pretty well.

That's not terribly helpful if the owner of the bank account has dispensed with paper statements and for that matter cheque books and paying in slips. So there may be no clues as to the whereabouts of the bank account.

I could suggest putting everything on a memory stick, but they are so small as to easily be lost or mislaid. A file or folder containing physical paper is or should be more conspicuous.

An executor in this position should contact the bank as soon as possible for any statement information they still have. Ask for the most detailed version they have, you want payees rather than just amounts. If the deceased wrote checks some images will be available. Remember the bank records only go back so far, and they destroy some every day.

Trivial, but nobody has mentioned it, take a look at the unclaimed assets web site periodically for the next decade.

[9873210]

Heirs don't need and should not have passwords. They should not need account numbers.

I can think of a few examples where my next of kin having my PINs and passwords would be extremely useful.

Obviously I would have to trust them not to run off with what is mine. But given that, it is almost a de facto poor man's power of attorney.

I'm having trouble parsing "de facto power of attorney", it keeps leading to contradictions.

Personally I've had no trouble setting up de jure powers of attorney in any of the cases I've needed them. For example authorizing a third party to access a bank account, for which they have their own User ID and Password, and if they sign checks they use their own authorized signature, rather than replicating the owners. Authorized access can then be revoked at the owner's discretion.

[Lootman]

Heirs don't need and should not have passwords. They should not need account numbers.

I can think of a few examples where my next of kin having my PINs and passwords would be extremely useful.

Obviously I would have to trust them not to run off with what is mine. But given that, it is almost a de facto poor man's power of attorney.

I'm having trouble parsing "de facto power of attorney", it keeps leading to contradictions.

Personally I've had no trouble setting up de jure powers of attorney in any of the cases I've needed them. For example authorizing a third party to access a bank account, for which they have their own User ID and Password, and if they sign checks they use their own authorized signature, rather than replicating the owners. Authorized access can then be revoked at the owner's discretion.

The problem is often not setting up the POA but rather the attorneys having problems getting institutions to recognise them.

But my point was more about cases where for whatever reason there is no valid POA and actions are still needed.

And of course a POA cannot be used after death.

[Arizona11]

This is a very good point you have raised. Ones bank account is usually used to move money to and from online accounts, so that may work pretty well.

That's not terribly helpful if the owner of the bank account has dispensed with paper statements and for that matter cheque books and paying in slips. So there may be no clues as to the whereabouts of the bank account.

I could suggest putting everything on a memory stick, but they are so small as to easily be lost or mislaid. A file or folder containing physical paper is or should be more conspicuous.

You are correct that with the way technology is spreading, eventually people will not have any physical trace of their bank account provider.

I think that the population may be storing up a fairly serious problem in the future with the lack of physical records. Maybe this problem should be publicised to warn people to put their affairs in good order when they write their will to save major problems for executors.

[swill453]

Maybe all institutions should be obliged to search the register of deaths, and if a client of theirs has died should send a letter to their address just to acknowledge.

Then the executor or administrator would have a chance of getting the notification.

Scott.

[9873210]

I don't think there is anything magical about snail mail. These days phone numbers* are more permanent than addresses.

You could solve the problem electronically by say setting up an email NIN@is_dead.gov.uk and requiring it to be notified, giving access to the executor or personal representative at probate. Or the unclaimed asset office could take a role and be notified of assets of dead people.

The problem with email is not technical, it's that there is no permanence or agreed conventions.

*https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/cell_number.png
From xkcd.com

[onthemove]

Heirs don't need and should not have passwords. They should not need account numbers.

I can think of a few examples where my next of kin having my PINs and passwords would be extremely useful.

Obviously I would have to trust them not to run off with what is mine. But given that, it is almost a de facto poor man's power of attorney.

Just as a caution to anyone who might be thinking of actually doing that...

Unless your bank terms and conditions explicitly permit you to share your password - and as far as I know, it's pretty universal that they don't do so - as a bare minimum, it would likely be a criminal offence on the part of the heirs[*] if the heirs (or next of kin, etc) were to use the passwords to access the account - even if they didn't move any money around. (Computer Misuse Act 1990). And it would be pretty obvious unauthorised activity has taken place when the bank receives notification of the date of death.

Under the 1990 Computer Misuse Act, only the person(s) with responsibility for the computer can give authorisation to other individuals, or give other specific individuals permission to give others authorisation to access; unless you (acting as an heir or next of kin or whatever) were given the authorisation by such an authorised individual, it would likely be a criminal offence to use any password that you've come into possession of, irrespective how you came about it. A regular account holder is typically not such an authorised individual.

"(8)An act done in relation to a computer is unauthorised if the person doing the act (or causing it to be done)—
(a)is not himself a person who has responsibility for the computer and is entitled to determine whether the act may be done; and
(b)does not have consent to the act from any such person." https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/18/section/17

(my bold)

From what I understand, it was specifically drafted this way to block off many otherwise potential defences against a hacking charge... for example, defined this way, social engineering, where an account holder is tricked into revealing their password which is then used for access, is still de-facto hacking, just the same as if the hacker had used technical skills instead to bypass the login.

Similarly, and more relevantly, being defined in this manner, the law also protects the computer owner from a (legitimate) account holder misusing or sharing their access with others without authorisation.

I dare say, if you (as an heir, or next of kin) were to move money around using a password left around by the deceased, there are probably all kinds of other finance related offences you might also open yourself up to as well, but I'm not a lawyer, and only studied a few small parts of the law specifically in relation to computers (e.g. the computer misuse act, etc) in software engineering / computer science courses.

I've just done a quick google, and it looks like the computer misuse act is even covered in GCSEs these days... https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z ... revision/5

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Footnote:
[*] When I studied the computer misuse act as part of software engineering courses (pre-2007), it was presented as though the offence was only on the side of the person actually making the unauthorised access, not the account holder who shared their password; however, I notice that in section 1-1-a ( https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/18/section/1 ) there's now a 2007 amendment that adds on "... or to enable any such access to be secured" ... which I dare say, possibly also now makes it an offence on the part of the account holder if they simply share their password.