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NHS Dentists

Straight answers to factual questions
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mc2fool
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NHS Dentists

#452503

Postby mc2fool » October 23rd, 2021, 2:50 pm

DAK what the formal situation is in regards to (supposed) NHS Dentists accepting NHS patients?

That is, if a (supposed) NHS dentists practice says it's not accepting new NHS patients (but are accepting private ones), is that 'cos they've reached some minimum quota that the NHS has set that they must accept as NHS patients, and having reached that they're free to charge any further patients whatever they like? (I can't believe the NHS set a max...)

Or is there some other relationship/rules that determine how many NHS patients a practice treats (min/max/?)?

And additionally, I assume that the dentist gets paid something by the NHS in addition to the band 1/2/3 fee the NHS patient pays: if so DAK how much? (I assume it has to total less than they charge a private patient!)

UncleEbenezer
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Re: NHS Dentists

#452537

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 23rd, 2021, 7:31 pm

I don't know if it still applies, but I've been told by dentists in the past (Blair era) that they'd accept NHS patients, but only those on certain benefits were eligible for that. One of those cascading benefits that contributed to a deep poverty trap!

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452545

Postby Lootman » October 23rd, 2021, 8:09 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:I don't know if it still applies, but I've been told by dentists in the past (Blair era) that they'd accept NHS patients, but only those on certain benefits were eligible for that. One of those cascading benefits that contributed to a deep poverty trap!

Yes I had assumed that it is up to each individual dental practice to decide whether to accept NHS patients, and what criteria they apply to that.

My dentist sees children on the NHS but all the adult patients are private.

The NHS also limits the treatments that are available and, since I want the very best treatments, I would always choose to see a dentist privately anyway even if there was a choice.

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452547

Postby Stompa » October 23rd, 2021, 8:18 pm

It looks as though there is a quota system of sorts:

https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/nhs-de ... es/indepth

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452559

Postby mc2fool » October 23rd, 2021, 9:16 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:I don't know if it still applies, but I've been told by dentists in the past (Blair era) that they'd accept NHS patients, but only those on certain benefits were eligible for that. One of those cascading benefits that contributed to a deep poverty trap!

If you mean that the dentist had a policy that they'd only accept people on certain benefits as NHS patients then possibly that was so for some.

However, if you mean that the NHS (or govt) had a policy that only people on certain benefits were eligible to be NHS patients, then I don't believe that was ever true and certainly isn't now.

"We’re all entitled to the NHS treatment we need to keep our mouth, teeth and gums healthy and pain-free.
So if treatment is clinically necessary, you should be able to get it on the NHS.
NHS dental treatments include:
dentures
root-canal treatment
crowns and bridges
fillings
preventive treatment (such as a scale and polish, when needed)
orthodontic (teeth straightening) treatment for children and young people aged under 18.
"
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-nhs-dental-treatment-am-i-entitled-to-apF3s8X8XfhB

Perhaps you are thinking of who is eligible for free dental care, rather than having to pay the fixed NHS dental charges?

"People in certain groups are entitled to free NHS dental treatment, including those under 18, those under 19 still receiving full-time education, pregnant women or those who have had a baby in the last 12 months, and those on qualifying low-income benefits." (Ibid)

The current NHS dental charges a dentist can charge, along with more exhaustive lists of the treatments the NHS covers, and who get them for free (the lists above from Which are not complete) are at:

https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/dentists/dental-costs/get-help-with-dental-costs/ and
https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/dentists/dental-costs/understanding-nhs-dental-charges/

mc2fool
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Re: NHS Dentists

#452560

Postby mc2fool » October 23rd, 2021, 9:23 pm

Stompa wrote:It looks as though there is a quota system of sorts:

https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/nhs-de ... es/indepth

Hi. That site requires a subscription and says "No Subscription? Contact us to discuss your requirements" so doesn't look like a quick and easy (and free) registration to read the article. So ... would you care to copy and post the vital info here, or at least précis it for us please? :D

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452565

Postby Stompa » October 23rd, 2021, 9:51 pm

mc2fool wrote:
Stompa wrote:It looks as though there is a quota system of sorts:

https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/nhs-de ... es/indepth

Hi. That site requires a subscription and says "No Subscription? Contact us to discuss your requirements" so doesn't look like a quick and easy (and free) registration to read the article. So ... would you care to copy and post the vital info here, or at least précis it for us please? :D

Hmmm, that's odd, it's saying it requires a subscription for me too now (which I don't have), but was working fine when I posted the link.

I've no idea why but it seems to work if you get to the page via Google, so try using the link here:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=NHS+D ... neri.co.uk

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452573

Postby Dod101 » October 23rd, 2021, 10:43 pm

mc2fool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:I don't know if it still applies, but I've been told by dentists in the past (Blair era) that they'd accept NHS patients, but only those on certain benefits were eligible for that. One of those cascading benefits that contributed to a deep poverty trap!

If you mean that the dentist had a policy that they'd only accept people on certain benefits as NHS patients then possibly that was so for some.

However, if you mean that the NHS (or govt) had a policy that only people on certain benefits were eligible to be NHS patients, then I don't believe that was ever true and certainly isn't now.

"We’re all entitled to the NHS treatment we need to keep our mouth, teeth and gums healthy and pain-free.
So if treatment is clinically necessary, you should be able to get it on the NHS.
NHS dental treatments include:
dentures
root-canal treatment
crowns and bridges
fillings
preventive treatment (such as a scale and polish, when needed)
orthodontic (teeth straightening) treatment for children and young people aged under 18.
"
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-nhs-dental-treatment-am-i-entitled-to-apF3s8X8XfhB

Perhaps you are thinking of who is eligible for free dental care, rather than having to pay the fixed NHS dental charges?

"People in certain groups are entitled to free NHS dental treatment, including those under 18, those under 19 still receiving full-time education, pregnant women or those who have had a baby in the last 12 months, and those on qualifying low-income benefits." (Ibid)

The current NHS dental charges a dentist can charge, along with more exhaustive lists of the treatments the NHS covers, and who get them for free (the lists above from Which are not complete) are at:

https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/dentists/dental-costs/get-help-with-dental-costs/ and
https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/dentists/dental-costs/understanding-nhs-dental-charges/


Very strange. mc2fool asked the question and then seems to be answering it himself?

Dod

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452574

Postby mc2fool » October 23rd, 2021, 10:44 pm

Stompa wrote:I've no idea why but it seems to work if you get to the page via Google, so try using the link here:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=NHS+D ... neri.co.uk

Aha! The go-via-google trick! :D (Works with the Financial Times & Investors Chronicle too!)

Ok, so at first glance the (or, at least, an) important bit looks to be:

"Under the NHS contract with the PCT the provider agrees to provide a set number of Units of Dental Activity (UDAs) for the annual contract value. The annual contract value will be paid, less any patients' charges in 12 equal monthly instalments.

Your GDS or PDS agreement will primarily be monitored in terms of the number of UDAs performed. A UDA is the measurement of a course of treatment related to its complexity. Your contract will specify the number of units of dental activity to be provided under the contract from April until the following March.
"

A few TCAs (three character abbreviations ;)) there, and obviously a little historical as Primary Care Trusts no longer exist, but if we take it as still generally true today, then it seems the NHS agrees an amount of "work" for the dentist to do for NHS patients in exchange for a £ amount. I'm not sure how those are arrived at or what choices the dentist has, although that may be deeper in the article which I've only skimmed so far. Be nice if we could find a more layman's explanation...

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452581

Postby mc2fool » October 23rd, 2021, 11:21 pm

Dod101 wrote:Very strange. mc2fool asked the question and then seems to be answering it himself?

Then you didn't understand the question!

My reply to UncleEbenezer that you quoted dealt with the eligibility to be an NHS patient for dental care, the upshot of which is that most everyone (UK citizens, etc) is eligible to be an NHS dental patient, and additionally some are eligible to it for free.

My question was not about eligibility but about dentists accepting NHS patients, as even if you're eligible to be an NHS patient your (supposed) NHS dentist may not accept you as one -- but may offer to take you on as private instead.

Stompa's link reveals that each dentist has, in effect, a quota of NHS patients, although it's not expressed that straightfowardly and it's not clear how that's arrived at.

Try this and see how far down the list (i.e. how far away) a dentist that will take you as an NHS patient is ... you may be lucky of course. ;)
https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/find-a-dentist

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452582

Postby Stompa » October 23rd, 2021, 11:32 pm

mc2fool wrote:Try this and see how far down the list (i.e. how far away) a dentist that will take you as an NHS patient is ... you may be lucky of course. ;)
https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/find-a-dentist

The trouble is most of them (in my case 72%) say "It's been more than 90 days since this dentist gave an update on whether they're taking on new patients. Contact them directly for more information."

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452583

Postby mc2fool » October 23rd, 2021, 11:38 pm

Stompa wrote:
mc2fool wrote:Try this and see how far down the list (i.e. how far away) a dentist that will take you as an NHS patient is ... you may be lucky of course. ;)
https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/find-a-dentist

The trouble is most of them (in my case 72%) say "It's been more than 90 days since this dentist gave an update on whether they're taking on new patients. Contact them directly for more information."

Yeah, for me too, but I take it that's 'cos at the last update they were full and haven't bothered to reconfirm that since, 'cos as I understand it from the croneri article they do have to fill their "quota". I expect most do so soon after the start of the contract year in April.

I've got a couple that are still taking on NHS patients, but they're pretty far down the list.

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452584

Postby Stompa » October 23rd, 2021, 11:51 pm

mc2fool wrote:I've got a couple that are still taking on NHS patients, but they're pretty far down the list.

I have none that are taking on adults, and just 3 that will take on children.

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452595

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 24th, 2021, 2:58 am

mc2fool wrote:If you mean that the dentist had a policy that they'd only accept people on certain benefits as NHS patients then possibly that was so for some.

Yes, obviously the law doesn't preclude dentists accepting whomsoever they choose as NHS patients.

I think my recollection was of dentists not wanting to take on NHS patients, but of the law (or something deriving from it) requiring them to accept the benefits recipients as NHS patients. This was at a time when there were many stories of people being unable to find a dentist willing to sign them up as NHS patient, despite theoretically being eligible.

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452602

Postby Dod101 » October 24th, 2021, 7:40 am

mc2fool wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Very strange. mc2fool asked the question and then seems to be answering it himself?

Then you didn't understand the question!

My reply to UncleEbenezer that you quoted dealt with the eligibility to be an NHS patient for dental care, the upshot of which is that most everyone (UK citizens, etc) is eligible to be an NHS dental patient, and additionally some are eligible to it for free.

My question was not about eligibility but about dentists accepting NHS patients, as even if you're eligible to be an NHS patient your (supposed) NHS dentist may not accept you as one -- but may offer to take you on as private instead.

Stompa's link reveals that each dentist has, in effect, a quota of NHS patients, although it's not expressed that straightfowardly and it's not clear how that's arrived at.

Try this and see how far down the list (i.e. how far away) a dentist that will take you as an NHS patient is ... you may be lucky of course. ;)
https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/find-a-dentist


Thank you. You are quite right. I guess I read it wrongly. I have an excellent private dentist and they also take NHS patients as I discovered when at first I kept getting a different dentist each time I attended. I was paying a modest sum for treatment (at least compared to the fees for private work.) Changed to private and saw 'my' dentist each time.

A more local dentist has a big banner proclaiming to the world that thet are taking NHS patients but no idea how it works.

Dod

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452649

Postby didds » October 24th, 2021, 12:16 pm

Its clearly a per practise thing then... I am an NHS pateint at a NHS denists in our local town, and I have the same dentist and hygenist all the time. The only time that ahsnt happened that I can recall was for emergency treatnment (extraction) and when the hgenist was on maternity leave, then when my dentist retired and i got a new one - who is now my dentist.

this in around 20 years now.

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452650

Postby 88V8 » October 24th, 2021, 12:20 pm

When first we moved here I went to an NHS dentist... I knew some work was needed, but after a very cursory whizz round, the dentist proclaimed things all well.

So I moved to a multi-practitioner private dentist who also takes some NHS patients. The owner finds it very unsatisfying to work within NHS cost guidelines, especially having to remove teeth that could be saved.
I rather have the impression that NHS dentistry has become rather basic. Perhaps it varies from practice to practice.

V8

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452691

Postby Redmires » October 24th, 2021, 2:45 pm

88V8 wrote:When first we moved here I went to an NHS dentist... I knew some work was needed, but after a very cursory whizz round, the dentist proclaimed things all well.

So I moved to a multi-practitioner private dentist who also takes some NHS patients. The owner finds it very unsatisfying to work within NHS cost guidelines, especially having to remove teeth that could be saved.
I rather have the impression that NHS dentistry has become rather basic. Perhaps it varies from practice to practice.

V8


On the other hand, it can (and does) happen that private dentists find 'extra' work to carry out, sometimes at great cost (economic and health) to the unsuspecting patient.

https://www.dentalnegligenceteam.co.uk/ ... treatment/

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452694

Postby mc2fool » October 24th, 2021, 3:14 pm

Folks, I'm sure we can all come up with personal experiences and find stories of good/bad/ripoff/etc dentists, but this is DAK so let's please stick to the OP questions and not wander off into "general discussion" that might get a moderator's attention and action! :D

I think the croneri article gives us some answers to the OP (assuming it still applies, as PCTs no longer exist so the article is clearly historical), although it's not clear how the "Units of Dental Activity" for NHS dentistry for a practice is arrived at and, as I say, it'd be nice if we could find a more layman's explanation... :?

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Re: NHS Dentists

#452733

Postby csearle » October 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm

Moderator Message:
As suggested, please stick to the OP's question. Thanks - Chris


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