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Searching death records

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gryffron
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Re: Searching death records

#460816

Postby gryffron » November 25th, 2021, 12:34 pm

Avantegarde wrote:A question: is the fact that the mystery owner's name is still on the Land Registry records not a good indication that he is, in fact, still alive? After all, how often do people buy or inherit land and forget or fail to change the ownership registration? Surely it is the first thing most people would do?

But it may have been missed by his estate administrators.
Several of the Lincolnshire farmers I know own little pockets of land all over the place. Like the corner of a field sold off for development. It would be useless to anyone except those whose houses actually border it. It must be a nightmare for executors (or solicitors) trying to track it all down.

Gryff

richlist
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Re: Searching death records

#460875

Postby richlist » November 25th, 2021, 3:22 pm

I'm sure I recall buying property in the past where the ownership couldn't be traced back beyond a certain date and I paid for an indemnity policy in case the original owner ever turned up.

After the first world war lots of guys didn't return and ownership of parcels of land was difficult to prove.

So, can't you just pay for an insurance policy.......presumably they do all the hard work or at least tell you what they need before offering a policy.

On the other hand I could be wrong and my memory is failing me.

Alternatively, you could just start using the land.....put a couple of containers on it, graze horses, buy some sheep, turn it into a car park et c etc........perhaps the real owner will then turn up quite quickly. If not, you've had a result.

Clitheroekid
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Re: Searching death records

#460958

Postby Clitheroekid » November 25th, 2021, 9:53 pm

Thanks for all the replies. Just to deal with a couple of the points raised:

Dod101 wrote:The owner may have died but may not. Would it not be more productive to assume that he is around somewhere? This is presumably barren land with nothing on it, not rented out to anyone and in all just sitting there. No maintenance of any sort, no taxes to be paid on it. These would all I think provide some sort of lead which might prove helpful.

The land is vacant, but the strange thing is that my client recalls that there was quite a large mock-Tudor detached house on it, built in the late 20's. He says that when he was a child in the 1980's it was in a very poor state.

The current owner (`Mr X') bought it in 1987 (at which point it was apparently derelict) and my client says it was completely demolished a couple of years later.

However, I've discovered that Mr X was made bankrupt in 2002, so I've written to the Official Receiver to see if they have any information. What I can't understand is (1) why he did nothing with the land for 15 years; and (2) why the property (which is in a good area, and must be worth a fair amount just as a vacant site) wasn't sold to pay the owner's creditors.

How about a search of the deeds of the last known address?

Title deeds no longer exist for registered titles. The only information is that at the Land Registry. The address Mr X gave at the time he bought the property is now a carpet shop some 60 miles away. I've spoken to the owner, who has owned it for 20 years, didn't buy it from Mr X, and has never heard of him.

Did the registered owner have any local connections?

No idea, and no easy way of finding out, particularly as it was nearly 35 years ago that he bought it.

It seems to me that without any information, searching the death statutory records is like researching the proverbial needle in a haystack since, if he died, he could have died anywhere and unless he has a particularly unusual name how will you know if he is your man?

Yes - some replies seem to have been based on the assumption that he's dead, but we've no evidence that he is. And the problem with the various suggestions for obtaining a death certificate is that all of them only work if there's an actual death. As the purchase was `only' 34 years ago he may very well still be alive, though if he is why has he done nothing with the land?

One possibility that occurred to me is that he might be non compos mentis in a nursing home somewhere, and nobody knows that he owns the land.

Mike4 wrote:I wonder if a completely different avenue of enquiry might be council tax or business rates. Presumably all land has to pay one or the other, so could an enquiry to the local council about whether the tax/rates account is up to date at least yield a clue as to whether the missing owner is still paying them?

A good idea in principle, but not in this case. As I said, the land is vacant, so not subject to either council tax or business rates.

Another tack I guess is the adverse possession route. If your client puts a big shiny fence up with a sign on it saying he is adversely possessing the land and giving contact details, someone will probably pop up objecting, should there be anyone to notice.

I did mention this, but there's a slight drawback, in that you have to occupy the land for 10 years before you can make a claim, and my client's not that patient!

Avantegarde wrote:A question: is the fact that the mystery owner's name is still on the Land Registry records not a good indication that he is, in fact, still alive? After all, how often do people buy or inherit land and forget or fail to change the ownership registration? Surely it is the first thing most people would do?

Yes, it's a prima facie indication that he's still alive, but it's by no means conclusive. An increasing number of people are dying without having made a Will and with no close relatives, so that their estate is never administered. There's a list of unclaimed estates issued by the Treasury Solicitor, which I've checked to no avail.

richlist wrote:I'm sure I recall buying property in the past where the ownership couldn't be traced back beyond a certain date and I paid for an indemnity policy in case the original owner ever turned up.

So, can't you just pay for an insurance policy.......presumably they do all the hard work or at least tell you what they need before offering a policy.

Title indemnity insurance is commonly used where there's a relatively minor title defect, but like most insurance policies they will only be issued if the insurer thinks there's no chance of a claim! In this case the risk would be far too high for them to issue a policy.

The search continues ...

Avantegarde
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Re: Searching death records

#461263

Postby Avantegarde » November 26th, 2021, 7:10 pm

Exciting! I do like a good mystery. Please keep us up to date. Have you thought of off-beat avenues of enquiry, such as Facebook pages for local interest groups, or local history groups?

XFool
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Re: Searching death records

#461274

Postby XFool » November 26th, 2021, 7:35 pm

Just thought I'd check at GRO for the range of death records they have available to search, at their site:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/CG11.pdf

2. Available Indexes

GRO online indexes are available to search for: birth records from 1837 up to 100
years ago, and 1984 up to the current year; and death records from 1837 to 1957,
and 1984 up to the current year. We are currently identifying a rolling programme to
put more of our indexes online and we will notify you via our website when any new
indexes are added.

You can view GRO’s birth, death and marriage indexes online via other websites,
e.g. https://www.freebmd.org.uk, where they are available to view free of charge up
to 1983.


Version 1.03_Last Updated Dec 2019

richlist
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Re: Searching death records

#461279

Postby richlist » November 26th, 2021, 8:01 pm

I thought there were private investigators who would undertake the task of finding missing persons......obviously there could be a substantial cost involved but then solicitors hourly rates can't be cheap.

Seems your best lead is through the 2002 bankrupcy, presumably that will provide an address from which to start.

XFool
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Re: Searching death records

#461292

Postby XFool » November 26th, 2021, 8:53 pm

XFool wrote:Just thought I'd check at GRO for the range of death records they have available to search, at their site:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/CG11.pdf

Just reviewing this thread I see Breelander already effectively supplied this information.

XFool
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Re: Searching death records

#461400

Postby XFool » November 27th, 2021, 12:21 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
XFool wrote:IMO, you really do need FreeBMD here - https://www.freebmd.org.uk

It won't work. Death coverage on FreeBMD is non-existent in recent years.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/progressD.shtml#y1984

It will work! (Or ought to...)

From above link: FreeBMD - 100% Index of Death Registrations from 1837 to 1986.
From GRO website: GRO - Death records from 1984 to present.

"and death records from 1837 to 1957, and 1984 up to the current year."

(Again, notice 'hole' in searchable GRO Death record indexes, from 1957-1984, covered by FreeBMD)

GoSeigen
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Re: Searching death records

#461425

Postby GoSeigen » November 27th, 2021, 4:23 pm

XFool wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
XFool wrote:IMO, you really do need FreeBMD here - https://www.freebmd.org.uk

It won't work. Death coverage on FreeBMD is non-existent in recent years.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/progressD.shtml#y1984

It will work! (Or ought to...)

From above link: FreeBMD - 100% Index of Death Registrations from 1837 to 1986.
From GRO website: GRO - Death records from 1984 to present.

The discussion and my quotes of your post were about freebmd not GRO. FreeBMD doesn't even allow death index searches beyond 1998.

If you're now advising people to use GRO then that is more sound advice. And note, I was merely commenting following your own modest admission that "I honestly don't know anything about searching for death certificates, at least not UK ones"

GS

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Re: Searching death records

#461428

Postby staffordian » November 27th, 2021, 4:45 pm

One problem with the GRO search facility is that unlike FreeBMD, it is not possible to search on a broad range of dates. You must enter a date, and can select exact, +/- 1 or +/- 2 years.

Not an insurmountable issue but it does mean quite a few searches are needed if you've no idea of a death date.

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Re: Searching death records

#461433

Postby XFool » November 27th, 2021, 5:22 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
XFool wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:It won't work. Death coverage on FreeBMD is non-existent in recent years.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/progressD.shtml#y1984

It will work! (Or ought to...)

From above link: FreeBMD - 100% Index of Death Registrations from 1837 to 1986.
From GRO website: GRO - Death records from 1984 to present.

The discussion and my quotes of your post were about freebmd not GRO. FreeBMD doesn't even allow death index searches beyond 1998.

If you're now advising people to use GRO then that is more sound advice. And note, I was merely commenting following your own modest admission that "I honestly don't know anything about searching for death certificates, at least not UK ones"

My point was, after looking at your post pointing out the limitation of FreeBMD for coverage of more recent deaths - and my checking out what exactly was the search coverage on the GRO site - I noticed that, between the two of them, they had it covered all the way from 1837 to "the present" (i.e. 2019 - from the GRO dated sheet). That seems to me to cover most likely years!

But... see post above by staffordian on the reported limitation of searching using the GRO site. ;)

I have never used the GRO site itself for any search - just for ordering certificates - so was unaware of it's own search limitations. I am more used to the excellent FreeBMD search site to supply the GRO index reference to a register record. And to also see images of the original GRO index pages. (I am curious as to when, historically, the UK GRO decided to implement an index.)

...Or to using the Irish BMD database - where the Register itself* rather than an index is what has been/is being digitised and is visible online. Unlike the case in the UK, where it is - as explained on the FreeBMD site - not even legally allowable for anyone to examine the GRO registers. Not even GRO employees, except under specific circumstances! (Despite the fact that anyone can order anyone's certificates...)

* Which, for records that interest me, as Ireland was largely ruled and administered by the UK, you can see exactly what the UK GRO physical central register records, for the period, must look like. Because, presumably, they would have just used the same documentation.

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Re: Searching death records

#461439

Postby GoSeigen » November 27th, 2021, 5:53 pm

XFool wrote:My point was, after looking at your post pointing out the limitation of FreeBMD for coverage of more recent deaths - and my checking out what exactly was the search coverage on the GRO site - I noticed that, between the two of them, they had it covered all the way from 1837 to "the present" (i.e. 2019 - from the GRO dated sheet). That seems to me to cover most likely years!

I wasn't picking a fight. I really didn't mention GRO in any of my messages and they were nowhere in my mind (except where you said something to the effect that using FreeBMD you were searching the GRO indexes, which is not completely accurate: you are actually searching FreeBMD's own transcription of the paper indexes, whereas the GRO site has its own transcription of its own indexes to maybe over-simplify it).


GS

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Re: Searching death records

#461445

Postby Midsmartin » November 27th, 2021, 6:37 pm

Thinking, maybe, laterally - maybe someone living nearby knows the answer. An afternoon stuffing flyers through doors asking if anyone knows who owns the land may yield an answer. We have an elderly neighbour with a surprisingly detailed knowledge of who owns what locally and what became of them.
And I agree that local Facebook groups may work too.

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Re: Searching death records

#461449

Postby XFool » November 27th, 2021, 7:15 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
XFool wrote:My point was, after looking at your post pointing out the limitation of FreeBMD for coverage of more recent deaths - and my checking out what exactly was the search coverage on the GRO site - I noticed that, between the two of them, they had it covered all the way from 1837 to "the present" (i.e. 2019 - from the GRO dated sheet). That seems to me to cover most likely years!

I wasn't picking a fight. I really didn't mention GRO in any of my messages and they were nowhere in my mind (except where you said something to the effect that using FreeBMD you were searching the GRO indexes, which is not completely accurate: you are actually searching FreeBMD's own transcription of the paper indexes, whereas the GRO site has its own transcription of its own indexes to maybe over-simplify it).

I think you may be oversimplifying it a bit.

You are of course correct about the FreeBMD transcribing from images of the original GRO paper index pages*. But... how else could it be done, by anyone? (The FreeBMD site itself discusses this matter)

This is how it is being done. This is how it is being done all over the world - for everything... e.g. Just one random example, this is how the daily weather records, faithfully written down in paper ledgers, with ink pens, by Victorian gentlemen sitting in a hut on top of Ben Nevis, are/were "being done".

Now the interesting question, wrt the GRO, is why they haven't managed to do it for their Birth index records from some time after the First World War all the way up to 1984? And what happened in 1984 that means they have "done it" from then?

Just a guess: Perhaps 1984 was the year GRO went electronic**, at the very least for the indexes? So 'doing it' was a done job, so to speak.

Before 1984: FreeBMD seems to imply/say the GRO tried to 'do it' but gave up, for unspecified reasons. Anyway, one way or another (I think others were already 'doing it') it was effectively outsourced by the GRO for the years of the 'big hole' - which includes the Boomer generation amongst several others.

Interesting aside (i.e. another guess). As practically nobody is allowed near the GRO central registers - according to FreeBMD - the usual method of doing this kind of thing with the registers themselves, by publicly outsourcing over the Internet, could not be used. It would be an immense job (think about it) and I would guess use too many resources for the GRO alone to do it in house in a reasonable time. But - the indexes were another matter. It is these that the FreeBMD people have access to. As I said, in Ireland, it is the central records themselves that are visible online, have been transcribed and are searchable directly - where they are available.

I find the whole subject quite intriguing and rather quirky.


* That's how I know I (or rather the index page I am on) was 'done' by one David Cooper-Smith, username: Scribblecat

** But - Index pages even in the 1960s have visibly changed from Courier typewriters to (my guess again) Cobol(?) records printed out and pasted onto the ledger pages.

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Re: Searching death records

#461494

Postby stewamax » November 27th, 2021, 11:05 pm

If the piece of land in question is in foxhunting country and assuming it is of a salient size and hunted over, the hunt will know who owns it or who farms it as tenant. GDPR should prevent them from giving you details but...
Also ask neighbouring farmers if it is farm-land.

Clitheroekid
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Re: Searching death records

#461703

Postby Clitheroekid » November 28th, 2021, 9:40 pm

stewamax wrote:If the piece of land in question is in foxhunting country and assuming it is of a salient size and hunted over, the hunt will know who owns it or who farms it as tenant. GDPR should prevent them from giving you details but...
Also ask neighbouring farmers if it is farm-land.

Unfortunately it's simply the site of a reasonably large detached house that used to be there, certainly not large enough to be hunted over.

It's also in a Manchester suburb, where fox hunters are not a common sight!


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