The Lemon Fool

Morning Lemons

I cycle to work. I've commuted on my bike for a couple of years and enjoy all the benefits. My journey is about 10 miles so plenty enough to work up a sweat.

My employer has now decided to shut the showers off because of the risk of COVID. I get into the showers at 07:00 and there is no one else there. To me this seems madness - I'm cycling to work, which meets all government guidelines and I wash from head to foot with soap and water when I get there, which is shown to kill the virus.

DAK if this is really the government advice?

Therms wrote:Morning Lemons

I cycle to work. I've commuted on my bike for a couple of years and enjoy all the benefits. My journey is about 10 miles so plenty enough to work up a sweat.

My employer has now decided to shut the showers off because of the risk of COVID. I get into the showers at 07:00 and there is no one else there. To me this seems madness - I'm cycling to work, which meets all government guidelines and I wash from head to foot with soap and water when I get there, which is shown to kill the virus.

DAK if this is really the government advice?

If it helps the relevant gov advice I am aware of is that employers continue to have a duty of care to conduct risk assessments, including for covid-19. If one were to make a risk assessment of all of the activities associated with shower cubicles and locker rooms (including the waterborne transmission issues affecting cleaning staff) then one might find that the employer should take some additional precautions. In our case we kept our locker rooms and showers open at our work. I can understand why some employers might choose to simplify things by eliminating the activity entirely. So ..... at the risk of being a troublesome employee you could ask to see the whole file of covid-19 risk assessments, not just those for the showers. Then, perhaps, suggest/challenge/encourage them to be developed to cater for your 'need'. E.g. Each employee to thoroughly wash down and dry down their shower cubicle and locker room after use, and to take all the relevant towels that were used for that back to their own house for laundering. So as to avoid any exposure to others.

regards, dspp

I would think that the government advice would be to do a risk assessment. The risk would be that you would touch lots of surfaces and hence leave lots of potential virus around as you get ready for your shower. Although you leave the room with little / no virus on you, the room still has potential to be a hotspot. Therefore it needs a deep-clean before the next person can use it. Perhaps your employer doesn't think that every member of staff would be diligent in doing this, and they can't afford a cleaner to sit by the shower room giving it a 15 minute clean after each use (an NHS place I know of has to clean every consultation room or every toilet that a patient enters before any other patient can use them). Do YOU think you would carry out a deep clean after you use the room each time? Would you be happy that every other user of the room had done the same before you entered? You may be the first in each day and benefit from the overnight cleaners having done a great job, but your employers are thinking about the whole day in their assessment of the risks to the entire workforce.

Loup321 wrote:You may be the first in each day and benefit from the overnight cleaners having done a great job, but your employers are thinking about the whole day in their assessment of the risks to the entire workforce.

No. They are thinking of the assessment with respect to the showers and the workforce that use them, or are exposed to them. If they were assessing the whole day and the entire workforce, as you suggest, they would need to be assessing the impact of not showering too, and the potential spread from the sweaty person, the unwashed and unsoaped body, and the fact you "touch lots of surfaces and hence leave lots of potential virus around as you" go around performing all your duties around the office.

This is DAK so not really a place for debate but the answer, as already given, is that these are guidelines only, not government advice. Employers are having to interpret them and are often failing to consider the entire situation and introducing new "rules" of the workplace that are as much about introducing "simple" (to understand, implement, and police) policies to a complex situation.

As has been suggested if you feel strongly enough about it (and can bear the exposure to workplace politics) whether as a personal measure, or because you think the new rules are wrong with respect to the health outcomes of all colleagues, then you can challenge it and ask to see the risk assessments, or even volunteer to be part of the team responsible for the ongoing assessments.

It's a nightmare, it can only be expected that there will be many instances of organisations being imperfect.

As pointed out the advice in most places is "to have a policy"
- it's all a bit ISO9001 and tosh
- but hopefully common sense (the real one - not the victim blaming excuse to be a bad guy can win out!)

I'm in a pretty similar situation re: commute; it's 18km and I won't risk the train and the car is needed elsewhere, so I cycle (carrying my paperwork for being out of my home zone as a necessary worker - I'm in Victoria, Oz)
- it's a medical devices environment so there's a metric manure tonne of buttock covering and box ticking
- but they've kept my shower and bike store open

I'd make your case for keeping access to the showers
- explain your alternatives and why cycling wins
- if they are not accepted, work from home
- if that's not accepted... be sweaty at the desk and give it a week

-sd

servodude wrote:if that's not accepted... be sweaty at the desk and give it a week

-sd

Or just don't overdress for cycling.

For many years I cycled to work, and some of my commutes were a lot longer than ten miles. None of those workplaces had showers. I did change clothes on arrival (typical case: carried a work shirt in a pannier but left work trousers over the back of my chair for the week). By dressing for the conditions and remaining cool I avoided substantial sweat. Also noted that healthy exercise sweat is qualitatively different from the stress sweat that causes a whiff in the armpits when sitting in the office or a car.

Therms wrote:My employer has now decided to shut the showers off because of the risk of COVID. I get into the showers at 07:00 and there is no one else there. ?

what about the potential from whoever showered in there at 1830 the night before?

Id imagine your employer is merely removing the low hanging fruit for methods to best provide a safe environment as possible.

Seems obvious and sensible to me.

didds

didds wrote:

Therms wrote:My employer has now decided to shut the showers off because of the risk of COVID. I get into the showers at 07:00 and there is no one else there. ?

what about the potential from whoever showered in there at 1830 the night before?

Id imagine your employer is merely removing the low hanging fruit for methods to best provide a safe environment as possible.

Seems obvious and sensible to me.

didds

Sounds like the employer hasn't taken an overall view of what the consequences would be.
(e.g. Withdraw showers > employees take public transport to work > increased exposure to COVID)

This isn't a new thing - a former employer of mine who used to have the electric shower units run at full blast for an hour every single evening.
This was to protect against Legionella.

The reality was that any residual hot water in such a shower gets flushed out by the built in delay between turning off the shower (which immediately turns off the heat), and the closing of the water valve. (specifically designed to stop water from boiling within the heater unit, which prevents scale formation).

Risk assessment - Before
Scenario: Someone gets legionella from water in the shower
Likelihood of occurrence: 0, Severity of occurrence: 5
Scenario: Someone getting scalded by hot water whilst clothed
Likelyhood of occurrence: 0, Severity of occurrence: 4
Total risk: 0x5+0x4 = Zero

Risk assessment afterwards
Scenario: Someone gets legionella from water in the shower
Likelyhood of occurrence: 0, Severity of occurrence: 5
Scenario: Someone getting scalded by hot water whilst clothed
Likelyhood of occurrence: 1, Severity of occurrence: 4
Total risk: 0x5+1x4 = Four

Yes - the attempt at mitigation made things more dangerous...

I thought that soap and water was deadly to the virus. There is plenty of both in showers and on those showering.

Somebody needs to think this through.

TJH

Thanks for your replies.

It seems like an overreaction, or maybe over cautious.

Oh well, it looks like public transport for me.

Therms wrote:My employer has now decided to shut the showers off because of the risk of COVID.

You say showers in the plural, so an additional issue not mentioned would be maintaing social distancing if there is more than one shower. If your employer opened only one shower would it cause issues with multiple people wanting to use it and not being able to - and all the management issues that would bring, so they are taking an easy route?

Anyway the government guidance is here and isn't closing them but

Where shower and changing facilities are required, setting clear use and cleaning guidance for showers, lockers and changing rooms to ensure they are kept clean and clear of personal items and that social distancing is achieved as much as possible.

Introducing enhanced cleaning of all facilities regularly during the day and at the end of the day.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 200910.pdf

How many others actually use the showers?
Can you talk to management to discuss your individual situation?

They might alter the decision if say there are only two of you that run or cycle.

If it's just you you could offer to clean etc to sweeten the deal.

You might also find out what is actually behind the decision

Hi Gerry and thanks for the reply,

In the morning I am the only user of the showers; I get in at 07:00. As I'm leaving there is another member of staff who cycles and uses the showers. There are enough showers for us to have two each, but they have all been closed off.

I had to drive in this morning so I'm missing my mental and physical kick-start.

I think that closing the showers is going too far. It's an RNA virus and very easy to kill. To survive outside a host it needs a warm, wet and sticky environment, so yes, if someone infected with the virus coughs in the shower or touches something, the virus could survive for hours.

Could the employer not simply keep spray bottles of diluted bleach and/or cheap alcohol (that stuff you use to defrost the car windows). A quick spray before and after would take care of it. I guess that the shower taps more than anything.


Steve

AF62 wrote: social distancing is achieved as much as possible.

Very important should you happen to drop the soap....

stevensfo wrote:Could the employer not simply keep spray bottles of diluted bleach and/or cheap alcohol (that stuff you use to defrost the car windows). A quick spray before and after would take care of it. I guess that the shower taps more than anything.

I suggest the issue isn't what or how something could be done, but how does an employer prove it has been done.

So sure, provide the spray bottles but how does it prove to the HSE that they are actually being used by their employees. So the employer now needs to employ cleaners to use the spray bottles and provide records that they have cleaned the shower to the appropriate standard.

For two employees it is far easier and cheaper to just close the shower.

AF62 wrote:

stevensfo wrote:Could the employer not simply keep spray bottles of diluted bleach and/or cheap alcohol (that stuff you use to defrost the car windows). A quick spray before and after would take care of it. I guess that the shower taps more than anything.

I suggest the issue isn't what or how something could be done, but how does an employer prove it has been done.

So sure, provide the spray bottles but how does it prove to the HSE that they are actually being used by their employees. So the employer now needs to employ cleaners to use the spray bottles and provide records that they have cleaned the shower to the appropriate standard.

For two employees it is far easier and cheaper to just close the shower.

I guess you're right and if I was an overworked boss, I'd probably do the same. I'm sure they could get around it with one minute of training, a signed certificate and a disclaimer form, but they don't have time.

The ironic thing is that someone fit enough to cycle so far and use a shower with plenty of soap is probably far less likely to get or be affected by the virus than a teacher or parents!

Steve

You may not believe this, but I am a teacher. I wonder what that means - I am fit enough to cycle, so a low risk of virus related complications, but I teach so I'm exposed to every germ and virus known to man.

Therms wrote:You may not believe this, but I am a teacher. I wonder what that means - I am fit enough to cycle, so a low risk of virus related complications, but I teach so I'm exposed to every germ and virus known to man.

So, assuming it's a secondary school, how do they shower after PE? If a Primary school, what about the toilet areas, wash basins etc?

Though it has cleared a few things up. Most of my relatives are teachers - or retired teachers - and I know how paranoid Headteachers can be, and how they follow what all the others are doing.

Have you considered making the kids wear strong tape over their mouths and tying their hands to the desk so they can't touch their faces? Many problems solved at the same time.

Steve

Therms wrote:You may not believe this, but I am a teacher. I wonder what that means - I am fit enough to cycle, so a low risk of virus related complications, but I teach so I'm exposed to every germ and virus known to man.

I am fit enough to cycle, but am - according to all available information - at rather high risk if I catch the virus, on account of medical conditions.

Talking of which, health programme on t'wireless today talked extensively of blood clots, and mentioned them as a covid issue. We've known from the start that heart conditions are a big covid risk factor, but DAK if anyone has correlated covid stats specifically with heart or blood medications?

Could it be that blood thinners, blood pressure drugs, or statins, are themselves a risk factor for serious covid complications? DAK if any reputable research has addressed this subject?