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Is 12pm noon or midnight?

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FanciThat
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342554

Postby FanciThat » September 24th, 2020, 3:58 pm

What is wrong with this statement "I'll meet you at midnight tonight" ? ;) ;)

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342611

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 24th, 2020, 8:03 pm

FanciThat wrote:What is wrong with this statement "I'll meet you at midnight tonight" ? ;) ;)

Sir Jasper? Is that you?

GoSeigen
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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342690

Postby GoSeigen » September 25th, 2020, 9:17 am

elkay wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
swill453 wrote:I'd rather you answered the question.

Scott.


OMG Google it for goodness sake. The first definition of post meridian is ": occurring after noon : of or relating to the afternoon the postmeridian hours of the day."

What could be clearer than that?

GS

I think Scott was referring to the assertion, not what post-meridian means.

Playing devil's advocate...the wikipedia link says post meridian is after noon. So by this logic 12pm must be midnight then because it is after noon?


Okay, so as devil's advocate are you saying the sequence goes 11:59am, 12:00am, 12:01pm, or what?

If the above, then do you believe the meridian falls at the moment before 12:01pm, or is the one minute between 12:00am and 12:01pm also post meridian?


GS

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342697

Postby swill453 » September 25th, 2020, 9:48 am

GoSeigen wrote:Okay, so as devil's advocate are you saying the sequence goes 11:59am, 12:00am, 12:01pm, or what?

If the above, then do you believe the meridian falls at the moment before 12:01pm, or is the one minute between 12:00am and 12:01pm also post meridian?

I would have thought it obvious that by definition the meridian is the instant of 12:00 midday, so 12:00 is neither before nor after the meridian.

That we choose by convention to equate 12pm to being midday is more sensible than midnight.

But there's sufficient argument for ambiguity that to quote 12pm in important banking and insurance contexts is rather stupid.

Scott.

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342700

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 25th, 2020, 9:59 am

https://www.npl.co.uk/resources/q-a/is- ... am-or-12pm
the terms 12 am or 12 pm should be avoided in order to provide a simple definition of midnight.

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342739

Postby GoSeigen » September 25th, 2020, 11:35 am

swill453 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Okay, so as devil's advocate are you saying the sequence goes 11:59am, 12:00am, 12:01pm, or what?

If the above, then do you believe the meridian falls at the moment before 12:01pm, or is the one minute between 12:00am and 12:01pm also post meridian?

I would have thought it obvious that by definition the meridian is the instant of 12:00 midday, so 12:00 is neither before nor after the meridian.

That we choose by convention to equate 12pm to being midday is more sensible than midnight.

But there's sufficient argument for ambiguity that to quote 12pm in important banking and insurance contexts is rather stupid.

Scott.


Well, we seem close to agreement here. In fact I even agree with the idea that there is ambiguity but I'd stress it is only in the minds of confused people, not in any considered, logical context. Having done a quick google it became apparent that very many people fall into that confused camp. My conclusion: schools, parents and kids clubs are not doing a good enough job.

Logically (and not just from convention), it is very easy to see there is sensibly one minute between 12pm and 12:01pm which would not be the case if 12pm were midnight -- but logic comes more easily to some people than others! Banks and insurance companies seldom have trouble with logic; however I agree that the same can not be said of their customers (and investors, LOL!).


GS

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342746

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 25th, 2020, 12:01 pm

GoSeigen wrote:Well, we seem close to agreement here. In fact I even agree with the idea that there is ambiguity but I'd stress it is only in the minds of confused people, not in any considered, logical context. Having done a quick google it became apparent that very many people fall into that confused camp. My conclusion: schools, parents and kids clubs are not doing a good enough job.

Logically (and not just from convention), it is very easy to see there is sensibly one minute between 12pm and 12:01pm which would not be the case if 12pm were midnight -- but logic comes more easily to some people than others! Banks and insurance companies seldom have trouble with logic; however I agree that the same can not be said of their customers (and investors, LOL!).


GS


Hmmm...
I don't think it's logic
By definition midnight and midday are neither am or pm , but they may be both, so adding am/pm is ambiguous

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342813

Postby servodude » September 25th, 2020, 3:22 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
swill453 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Okay, so as devil's advocate are you saying the sequence goes 11:59am, 12:00am, 12:01pm, or what?

If the above, then do you believe the meridian falls at the moment before 12:01pm, or is the one minute between 12:00am and 12:01pm also post meridian?

I would have thought it obvious that by definition the meridian is the instant of 12:00 midday, so 12:00 is neither before nor after the meridian.

That we choose by convention to equate 12pm to being midday is more sensible than midnight.

But there's sufficient argument for ambiguity that to quote 12pm in important banking and insurance contexts is rather stupid.

Scott.


Well, we seem close to agreement here. In fact I even agree with the idea that there is ambiguity but I'd stress it is only in the minds of confused people, not in any considered, logical context. Having done a quick google it became apparent that very many people fall into that confused camp. My conclusion: schools, parents and kids clubs are not doing a good enough job.

Logically (and not just from convention), it is very easy to see there is sensibly one minute between 12pm and 12:01pm which would not be the case if 12pm were midnight -- but logic comes more easily to some people than others! Banks and insurance companies seldom have trouble with logic; however I agree that the same can not be said of their customers (and investors, LOL!).


GS


objection!
you've begged the question there though with your between 12pm and 12:01pm

while there is a one minute duration between noon and the start of 12:01 in the afternoon
there's equally 45minutes before midnight after being chucked out at 11:15pm

so pedantically any given midnight is simultaneously 12 oclock am and pm the two adjacent m

12pm gives undefined behaviour (probably implementation specific so you might get away with it)
- in much the same way you will get a value for TAN(90 deg) if you ask a machine

-sd

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342825

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 25th, 2020, 3:55 pm

If your clock reads 12:00 at midnight what does the 12 refer to?
It's hours, is it not?
12 hours before midday, or 12 hours after midday ?
If it's before midday, then logically, fifteen minutes later at 12:15 it means 12 hours and 15 minutes before midday. This is obviously wrong.
Therefore the 12 at midnight must refer to hours AFTER midday, aka post meridiem
This applies until 1am, when 1 means 1 hour into the 12-hour block before noon , ante meridiem

All because on an analogue clock the 12 is also the Zero....

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342874

Postby GoSeigen » September 25th, 2020, 7:36 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:If your clock reads 12:00 at midnight what does the 12 refer to?
It's hours, is it not?
12 hours before midday, or 12 hours after midday ?


Ah now I don't think it means 12 hours before or 12 hours after anything. To me they are just names for the hours, might as well call them Jan, Feb, Mar etc.

The hour labelled 12 is the one that occurs beginning at midday or midnight: 12am in the night, 12pm in the day. The entire hour we call 12 occurs in the morning (am) or the afternoon (pm).



sd: I don't fully follow your reply to me. I was saying something simple not very clearly perhaps:

A. If we say (as some do) that 12pm refers to midnight, then 12:01pm is 12 hours and 1 minute later. Similarly 12am would be midday and so 12:01am would occur 12 hours and one minute later. That's just silly.
B. If on the other hand 12pm refers to midday then clearly 12:01pm is one minute later, which makes a lot more sense. And the same for midnight.

I don't see how anyone can prefer A over B.

GS

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342880

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 25th, 2020, 8:00 pm

The hour labelled 12 is the one that occurs beginning at midday or midnight: 12am in the night, 12pm in the day. The entire hour we call 12 occurs in the morning (am) or the afternoon (pm).
Objection your honour:

The hour labeled 12 is the thirteenth hour after the reference point, 12 hours having elapsed already
12.47am is 12 hours and 47 minutes since midday the previous day. Then the reference point flips at 1.00am

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342884

Postby jfgw » September 25th, 2020, 8:14 pm

We could solve half of the problem by having one 10-hour day instead of splitting it in half with two lots of 12 hours,

https://svalbard.watch/pages/about_decimal_time.html

Julian F. G. W.

Posted at 8:43 (decimal)

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342889

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 25th, 2020, 8:29 pm

Just use the blinkin' ISO8601 24 hour system and all your troubles evaporate :D

11.59 tonight is 20200925:2359, then midnight is 20200926:0000 (which coexists with 20200925:2400, but this is explicitly disallowed in recent updates)
I will then get up just before noon, which is 20200926:1200

Makes sorting files easier...

And yes, I'm not following rules for date/time separator - just an example

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#342914

Postby Mike4 » September 25th, 2020, 11:24 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:If you paint half your wall black and the other half white, what colour is the dividing line?


And is it the same answer if somebody else painted it?

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343111

Postby tjh290633 » September 26th, 2020, 11:07 pm

Wec are arguing over one second. That between 2359:59 and 0000:01. That is Midnight. End of argument.

TJH

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343116

Postby servodude » September 27th, 2020, 12:00 am

tjh290633 wrote:Wec are arguing over one second. That between 2359:59 and 0000:01. That is Midnight. End of argument.

TJH


I thought we were arguing over whether midnight is before or after the noon :?
- I'd probably say that midnight itself doesn't have a duration ;)

-sd

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343226

Postby tjh290633 » September 27th, 2020, 5:06 pm

servodude wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Wec are arguing over one second. That between 2359:59 and 0000:01. That is Midnight. End of argument.

TJH


I thought we were arguing over whether midnight is before or after the noon :?
- I'd probably say that midnight itself doesn't have a duration ;)

-sd

It depends on how accurately you are measuring your time. It could be one second, a millisecond, a microsecond, or even less.

It is just one point in time. That happens to be exactly 12 hours after the previous noon and 12 hours before the next noon.

TJH

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343298

Postby servodude » September 27th, 2020, 10:21 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
servodude wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Wec are arguing over one second. That between 2359:59 and 0000:01. That is Midnight. End of argument.

TJH


I thought we were arguing over whether midnight is before or after the noon :?
- I'd probably say that midnight itself doesn't have a duration ;)

-sd


It is just one point in time. That happens to be exactly 12 hours after the previous noon and 12 hours before the next noon.

TJH


Exactly! it's a singular point in time that is both simultaneously equally ante and post meridian.. so the use of 12pm or am to mean a specific time of day is a bit vague :)

-sd

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343301

Postby tjh290633 » September 27th, 2020, 10:36 pm

servodude wrote:Exactly! it's a singular point in time that is both simultaneously equally ante and post meridian.. so the use of 12pm or am to mean a specific time of day is a bit vague :)

-sd

And that is why in military terminology there is no such time as 00:00. It is either 23:59 or 00:01. That way you know which day is being referred to.

TJH

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Re: Is 12pm noon or midnight?

#343340

Postby GoSeigen » September 28th, 2020, 8:23 am

tjh290633 wrote:
servodude wrote:Exactly! it's a singular point in time that is both simultaneously equally ante and post meridian.. so the use of 12pm or am to mean a specific time of day is a bit vague :)

-sd

And that is why in military terminology there is no such time as 00:00. It is either 23:59 or 00:01. That way you know which day is being referred to.

TJH


I call this nonsense. The (US and other) military use a 24-hour clock. It would be nice to have an authoritative reference from those who dispute this.

GS


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