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Getting Irish dual citizenship

Straight answers to factual questions
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swill453
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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#389692

Postby swill453 » February 24th, 2021, 6:44 pm

zico wrote:That's great, thanks. Can you just order certificates of anyone you want to without needing to prove identity?
Would have thought there's a fraud/counterfeiting risk there.

Yes, it's always been that way. See The Day of The Jackal.

(Anyone who treats a birth certificate as id is asking for trouble.)

Scott.

torata
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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#389806

Postby torata » February 24th, 2021, 11:20 pm

zico wrote:That's great, thanks. Can you just order certificates of anyone you want to without needing to prove identity?
Would have thought there's a fraud/counterfeiting risk there.


Adding to Scott's comment.
Think of it as a 2-stage process. Part one is proving that a named person has the right to Irish nationality. Part 2 is proving that you are that named person in applying for a passport. That part 2 is what you go through when renewing an existing passport, for example English.

torata

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#389807

Postby Lootman » February 24th, 2021, 11:25 pm

zico wrote:That's great, thanks. Can you just order certificates of anyone you want to without needing to prove identity?
Would have thought there's a fraud/counterfeiting risk there.

A few years ago i applied for a "full form" birth certificate rather than the standard one, and there were no checks. I just sent them a request in writing and they send it back within a few days.

This was the UK of course.

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#389826

Postby JamesMuenchen » February 25th, 2021, 7:14 am

Sobraon wrote:I believe DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC applies here.
My understanding : basically Spouses and ‘family member’ of EU citizens get freedom of movement. So to my reading there are very significant additional rights for spouses and kids where one partner is an EU citizen.

Only if they are resident in an EU member state though. Then they get a residence card from that member state that lets them come and go more freely. For countries outside Schengen it may mean that you are entitled to a visa, but you still need to apply for one (my wife had to do this for UK, for instance).

If not EU resident then they only have whatever freedoms are normally given to their passport when entering or have some sort of permission obtained in advance.

Even the residence is not automatic, there is an interview process where you need to provide documentary evidence supporting your relationship. At least here in Germany, so I assume EU wide.

But once you have it, it lasts 5 years so in theory you could then wander off. Or you could stay 5 years and it becomes permanent residence.

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#389895

Postby XFool » February 25th, 2021, 10:55 am

Lootman wrote:
zico wrote:That's great, thanks. Can you just order certificates of anyone you want to without needing to prove identity?
Would have thought there's a fraud/counterfeiting risk there.

A few years ago i applied for a "full form" birth certificate rather than the standard one, and there were no checks. I just sent them a request in writing and they send it back within a few days.

This was the UK of course.

Yep. I got a birth certificate for somebody else (for perfectly legitimate reasons), no problems. Ultimately, there is no absolute proof of who anybody is.

Remember the opening (and closing) scenes of the 1970s film 'The Day of the Jackal'.

XFool
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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#389930

Postby XFool » February 25th, 2021, 12:14 pm

Regarding Irish citizenship, I don't know if it has been mentioned but the Irish Records Office was burned down in the civil war. This may be an important consideration, depending how far back you need to go.

https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#389984

Postby DrBunsenHoneydew » February 25th, 2021, 3:15 pm

zico wrote:That's great, thanks. Can you just order certificates of anyone you want to without needing to prove identity?
Would have thought there's a fraud/counterfeiting risk there.

Yes indeed you can.
Which is why a birth certificate isn't evidence of your identity by itself.
It can contribute to ID but generally has to be ratified by a professional who's known you for a substantial time to make it a bit more rigorous.

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#390063

Postby XFool » February 25th, 2021, 7:48 pm

This board should come with a WARNING. As I now have in my hand paper printout copies of:

1. My father's family's filled in pages of the CENSUS OF IRELAND 1911

2. My mother's (adoptive?) family's filled in pages of the CENSUS OF IRELAND 1911*

2. My father's registration of birth

3. My mother's (probable) registration of birth

4. My paternal grandmother's registration of death

5. My paternal grandfather's registration of death

Still, it all helps to pass the time in these lockdown days.


* Now this has thrown up a possible 'interesting issue' from long in the past. One that plagued my mother.

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#391603

Postby XFool » March 2nd, 2021, 5:46 pm

Be careful out there! :)

Pontins used 'undesirables list' of Irish surnames

BBC News

Pontins has agreed to change its working practices after disclosure it had a blacklist of Irish surnames used to screen out bookings for its holiday parks from Gypsies and Travellers.

stevensfo
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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#391619

Postby stevensfo » March 2nd, 2021, 6:54 pm

JamesMuenchen wrote:
Sobraon wrote:I believe DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC applies here.
My understanding : basically Spouses and ‘family member’ of EU citizens get freedom of movement. So to my reading there are very significant additional rights for spouses and kids where one partner is an EU citizen.

Only if they are resident in an EU member state though. Then they get a residence card from that member state that lets them come and go more freely. For countries outside Schengen it may mean that you are entitled to a visa, but you still need to apply for one (my wife had to do this for UK, for instance).

If not EU resident then they only have whatever freedoms are normally given to their passport when entering or have some sort of permission obtained in advance.

Even the residence is not automatic, there is an interview process where you need to provide documentary evidence supporting your relationship. At least here in Germany, so I assume EU wide.

But once you have it, it lasts 5 years so in theory you could then wander off. Or you could stay 5 years and it becomes permanent residence.



We're in Italy and my wife has dual Polish/British nationality and we both retire in a year or so. I am pretty relaxed about it. This is Italy, not France (where I lived for 10 years) and not Germany (worked in Munchen 4 months - never again!), so the admin is a LOT friendlier, though still completely crazy. I am toying with the idea of maintaining my tax residence in the UK, while using Italy, Poland and certain other places as playgrounds. Italy is a great place to live!

Steve

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#391777

Postby Eboli » March 3rd, 2021, 10:45 am

XFool noted:

Regarding Irish citizenship, I don't know if it has been mentioned but the Irish Records Office was burned down in the civil war. This may be an important consideration, depending how far back you need to go.


I suspect it might explain the difficulty I had obtaining my father's long birth certificate. He was born in 1919 and had a short Irish birth certificate in his papers when he died. I was always puzzled as to why he had an Irish certificate when he was born in Lisburn (near Belfast). So when I applied in 2016 to the Irish Government for a copy of the long-birth certificate I was initial told there was no record of my father's existence! (Perhaps I was a bastard after all). But resistance soon crumbled when I sent them a facsimile of the short birth certificate - I dared not send them the original in case they lost it - and they sent me a copy of the long birth certificate from Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland wasn't created until 1921 so I don't understand how the Irish record ended up there. But they produced my passport so I never investigated the matter further.

Eb

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Re: Getting Irish dual citizenship

#392059

Postby servodude » March 4th, 2021, 3:16 am

Eboli wrote:XFool noted:

Regarding Irish citizenship, I don't know if it has been mentioned but the Irish Records Office was burned down in the civil war. This may be an important consideration, depending how far back you need to go.


I suspect it might explain the difficulty I had obtaining my father's long birth certificate. He was born in 1919 and had a short Irish birth certificate in his papers when he died. I was always puzzled as to why he had an Irish certificate when he was born in Lisburn (near Belfast). So when I applied in 2016 to the Irish Government for a copy of the long-birth certificate I was initial told there was no record of my father's existence! (Perhaps I was a bastard after all). But resistance soon crumbled when I sent them a facsimile of the short birth certificate - I dared not send them the original in case they lost it - and they sent me a copy of the long birth certificate from Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland wasn't created until 1921 so I don't understand how the Irish record ended up there. But they produced my passport so I never investigated the matter further.

Eb


The trouble my cousin had was that our shared grandfather (and his only route to the passport) had changed name between his birth and baptism
- at birth he'd been given the same name as his previous two brothers, each of whom died very young

This meant there was a bit of ringing around the churches of Westport to find paperwork linking his two identities

- sd


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