Solar panels

[PrefInvestor]

The water will be quite a bit colder.

Well even if I double my annual estimate to allow for colder water we are still talking about £30 pa a noise level figure really.

If we were passionate about saving money on energy we could use a timer with our electric immersion heater so that solar PV generated electricity was used. We could also do our washing and dishwashing during the day rather than at night which is our normal routine. But we can’t be bothered with making these kind of changes to make what we see as relatively small savings. But I understand if others feel differently.

ATB

Pref

[Avantegarde]

Be wary of promised financial and electrical returns on a solar panel array on your roof. Ours was installed about eight years ago (by a highly reputable installer) with a suggested payback time of 14 years. We are nowhere on track to meet that. We will be paid back in 20-25 years, if we are lucky. That original projection was based on an estimate of feed-in-tariff payments and the saved use of paid-for electricity from our electricity supplier as we can use our own home-generated electricity for free in daylight hours. We feel smug to be generating own our electricity but financially it was a dubious decision. Our panel array is small - only generating about 1.3kw. A bigger one would have been more cost effective, had we had the space for one. Now that the FiT scheme has ended for new installations, I fail to see how any householder can "make money" on such a project, unless the cost of panels and inverters has shrunk to almost nothing.

[UncleEbenezer]

By contrast, I have a friend with solar thermal panel on her roof. Not even a very large one: she installed solar PV alongside it when the price of those came down and the FITs made them a no-brainer for any suitable roof.

She tells me she has zero gas bills in summer, and about 50% lower in winter. Obviously ballpark figures, but show that it's serving its purpose!

[PrefInvestor]

By contrast, I have a friend with solar thermal panel on her roof. Not even a very large one: she installed solar PV alongside it when the price of those came down and the FITs made them a no-brainer for any suitable roof.

She tells me she has zero gas bills in summer, and about 50% lower in winter. Obviously ballpark figures, but show that it's serving its purpose!

Well let me say right up front, I am very happy with our Solar PV installation, it does reduce our bills and the FIT payments (with RPI increases for 20+ years) are also good.

Yes my gas bill is very low in the summer, but it was ALWAYS low as the CH is off then. As my house is heated using gas (along with most other people) all of my gas expense comes in the winter months and Solar PV does nothing to help with that, and thats when all of the gas gets used. As I explained in a previous post Solar Thermal water heating would likely save us peanuts also.

So a “no brainer” ?, no I wouldn’t say that at all – my payback time is well over 20 years right now, so scarcely a good commercial proposition. Ill likely be dead well before that !. Without the FIT payments Solar PV doesn’t make sense at all commercially IMV.

However my panels HAVE generated 11,000Kwatts of electricity over 2.5 years of which 80% has been exported (I only use ~2,500Kw per year). Killing the FIT scheme was a significant setback the solar industry in this country as solar is no longer a viable commercial proposition but is no a preserve of green minded people with enough spare cash to spend on it. Had the FIT scheme been kept far more people would have gone solar and that would have improved our renewable energy situation and resulted in a need for less power stations. Cancelling the FIT scheme was a bad move IMHO.

ATB

Pref

[PrefInvestor]

Well as I mentioned in a previous post, my son is just about to get Solar PV installed via one of these "group schemes". Decent panels, good inverter (same as mine), installer (no idea). Cost ~£7,000 so cheaper than mine. But NO FIT though, will have to go with Octopus Energy to get some payment for his export. No too bad 5.x p a unit. BUT he is planning to go the whole deal, electric car (just got that, VW ID3 very nice) plus an car charging point. No battery storage though, I warned him off that.

I remember investigating heat pumps at one point and thought I remember that there were decent subsidies available if you went this route. My recollection is that they were even better than FIT. BUT these pretty ugly installations involving digging large holes in your garden and changing all of your radiators, and so you'd probably need to redecorate your whole house afterwards I reckon.

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants ... incentive/

ATB

Pref

[UncleEbenezer]

I remember investigating heat pumps at one point and thought I remember that there were decent subsidies available if you went this route. My recollection is that they were even better than FIT. BUT these pretty ugly installations involving digging large holes in your garden and changing all of your radiators, and so you'd probably need to redecorate your whole house afterwards I reckon.

I investigated a heat pump. No need for messing about with my garden[1] 'cos it would use constantly-renewed water from the river, and as for radiators - an excuse to switch the whole downstairs to underfloor heat while leaving upstairs and attic with existing radiators. Cost an arm and a leg, but the government incentive would essentially close the gap between that and a gas boiler over seven years.

The problem was finding anyone to install it! Something of a catch 22: noone's getting them installed (because we can't find installers); plumbers/boilermen aren't training to install heatpumps ('cos noone's getting them installed and there's ample good work in gas).

[1] which doesn't actually exist - my only outdoor private space is a balcony over the river.

[supremetwo]

I investigated a heat pump. No need for messing about with my garden[1] 'cos it would use constantly-renewed water from the river, and as for radiators - an excuse to switch the whole downstairs to underfloor heat while leaving upstairs and attic with existing radiators. Cost an arm and a leg, but the government incentive would essentially close the gap between that and a gas boiler over seven years.

The problem was finding anyone to install it! Something of a catch 22: noone's getting them installed (because we can't find installers); plumbers/boilermen aren't training to install heatpumps ('cos noone's getting them installed and there's ample good work in gas).

[1] which doesn't actually exist - my only outdoor private space is a balcony over the river.

Constantly-renewed water from the river?

Unless you own the river, it's unlikely that a river authority would permit the use of their water without some sort of paid-for licence.

The problem with all ground or air-sources is the cold-weather limit in how much energy can be extracted without switching to the grid.

Fine for isolated dwellings but blocks of flats or complete streets or towns converted from gas (plus all your vehicles) to total reliance on electricity?

The tariff I am on: electric 14.8p/kWh gas 2.495p/kWh plus 19.8p per day each.

My typical Smart meter summer weekly (incl. daily charges): electric 41.8 kWh = £6.94 gas (water heating only) 147.7 kWh = £3.69 incl. daily.

Anyone estimated how much it will cost to upgrade the National Grid and all the substations and how much that could increase the price per kWh of electricity?

[PrefInvestor]

The tariff I am on: electric 14.8p/kWh gas 2.495p/kWh plus 19.8p per day each.

My typical Smart meter summer weekly (incl. daily charges): electric 41.8 kWh = £6.94 gas (water heating only) 147.7 kWh = £3.69 incl. daily.

Regarding the figures that you posted. You’re on a good tariff there Electricity 14.8p/kWh Gas 2.495p/kWh plus 19.8p per day each, better than my Avro Energy tariff which is Electricity 15.54p/kWh Gas 2.62p/kWh plus 20.48p per day each inc VAT.

However wrt your usage - electricity 41.8KWh (units) per week (~6 units per day) I can understand, sounds lower than average but depends on what appliances you have and how much you are at home during the day.

But gas for water heating 147.7 KWh, that’s about 1.9 units of gas per day (147.7/11 per week). That’s over twice our average summer usage of 0.8 units a day, and some weeks our usage is as low as 0.65 units a day, that’s 1/3 of your usage. This usage is also just for water heating.

At say £4 a day (£3.69 + 2x19.8) if your figures are correct that’d make your annual bill about £1460 (365 x £4)!. And that’s assuming summer usage all year, and during the winter I’m sure your gas usage is much higher. I find that very high and very hard to believe TBH. Somethings wrong somewhere, don’t think its my calculations.

Our total annual bill these days is about £850, that’s for 2200KWh of electricity and 13,500 KWh of Gas per year, inclusive of daily charges and VAT. When choosing a supplier these days I always look for the one that offers the lowest gas tariff, for obvious reasons.

ATB

Pref

[Mike4]

[1] which doesn't actually exist - my only outdoor private space is a balcony over the river.

Constantly-renewed water from the river?

Unless you own the river, it's unlikely that a river authority would permit the use of their water without some sort of paid-for licence.

Uncle E checked through all that at the time IIRC and you are correct. However, looking at the accumulation of weed on the bottom of my boat if left unused for any amount of time I suspect weed growth would have defeated his project in short order. Any heat collector in the flowing water would pretty quickly get clogged up I suspect. I dunno if Unce E ever considered this or worked out a solution.

Also, the 'flying freehold' aspect of the balcony over the water! I bet that busied the conveyancing solicitor for a while. AIUI with rivers and natural watercourses, the freehold of the land either side of a river extends out to the centreline of the water. With artificial canals, the freehold under the water is (broadly) owned by the canal company, but they do not own the water itself. No-one owns the water, apparently.

(Edit to un-mess-up my html.)

[supremetwo]

The tariff I am on: electric 14.8p/kWh gas 2.495p/kWh plus 19.8p per day each.

My typical Smart meter summer weekly (incl. daily charges): electric 41.8 kWh = £6.94 gas (water heating only) 147.7 kWh = £3.69 incl. daily.

Regarding the figures that you posted. You’re on a good tariff there Electricity 14.8p/kWh Gas 2.495p/kWh plus 19.8p per day each, better than my Avro Energy tariff which is Electricity 15.54p/kWh Gas 2.62p/kWh plus 20.48p per day each inc VAT.

However wrt your usage - electricity 41.8KWh (units) per week (~6 units per day) I can understand, sounds lower than average but depends on what appliances you have and how much you are at home during the day.

But gas for water heating 147.7 KWh, that’s about 1.9 units of gas per day (147.7/11 per week). That’s over twice our average summer usage of 0.8 units a day, and some weeks our usage is as low as 0.65 units a day, that’s 1/3 of your usage. This usage is also just for water heating.

At say £4 a day (£3.69 + 2x19.8) if your figures are correct that’d make your annual bill about £1460 (365 x £4)!. And that’s assuming summer usage all year, and during the winter I’m sure your gas usage is much higher. I find that very high and very hard to believe TBH. Somethings wrong somewhere, don’t think its my calculations.

Our total annual bill these days is about £850, that’s for 2200KWh of electricity and 13,500 KWh of Gas per year, inclusive of daily charges and VAT. When choosing a supplier these days I always look for the one that offers the lowest gas tariff, for obvious reasons.

ATB

Pref

Also on Avro, but I renewed just before the recent rises.

£3.69 is the weekly summer gas charge and includes the daily 'fee' of 7x 19.8p.

My electric is solar-powered during the day.

I have looked into the auto switching the solar output to the electric immersion for water heating.
However, the gas heats much more of the cylinder (unvented) than an immersion so the savings might be little.

[PrefInvestor]

Also on Avro, but I renewed just before the recent rises.

£3.69 is the weekly summer gas charge and includes the daily 'fee' of 7x 19.8p.

My electric is solar-powered during the day.

I have looked into the auto switching the solar output to the electric immersion for water heating.
However, the gas heats much more of the cylinder (unvented) than an immersion so the savings might be little.

Re Avro tariff, that’s interesting. I just switched from Bulb who were increasing their prices.

Re solar power, yes me too of course. We use only 4-5 units a day in the summer these days, good savings even in the winter on sunny days.

Re immersion heater, we have thought about putting the electric immersion heater on a timer and running it in daylight hours when it would be solar powered. But as my estimates of our water heating costs are very low it doesn’t seem worth the effort TBH.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your weekly costs, the wording of your previous post confused me. But £3.69 a week for everything (if that’s what you are now saying ?) now sounds very low instead of very high ?. During the summer our gas usage is very low, but in the winter it can easily rise to 8-9 units a day. Hence our ~13,000KWh per annum gas figure. You haven’t said what your total gas + electricity annual cost figure is.

ATB

Pref

[Mike4]

Slight change of subject, but given the proposals for phasing out gas boilers and the massive expansion of offshore wind (and presumably some replacement/expansion of nuclear, does the board see a future for storage heating?

The windmills don't stop turning at night (or day) and i can see a 'flexible version of economy 7 where it charges up in low demand times (I believe the latest Dimplex heaters have the capability to so this).

That's. hard one to forecast. Storage heaters were never well liked due to their sheer physical volume, the way they leak heat even when turned notionally OFF, and rarely stored enough heat to go right through the day into the evening.

The principle is great, but the details of how to control and use the stored heat would need to be vastly improved. And somewhere to put all those bricks NOT in one's living room!

[PrefInvestor]

Electric heating is always going to be more expensive than gas. Can’t see many people getting enthused about storage heaters due to installation and running costs. At some point when EVs have replaced most petrol/diesel cars the government is pretty sure to want to replace is current fuel duty (which is very lucrative) almost certainly by adding to the cost of electricity. Will it be ALL electricity or just that used for charging vehicles ?. Impossible to know that for vehicles charged at home so I reckon we can look forward to electricity prices increasing.

My plumber tells me that companies are actively experimenting with developing a hydrogen boiler that can be used as a plug in replacement for a gas boiler, see link below:-

https://heatable.co.uk/boiler-advice/hydrogen-boilers

Probably pretty pricey but likely will get one off assistance to buy one. Also read recently that hydrogen is to be introduced into the domestic gas supplies in a pilot scheme, see link below:-

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... university

Of course if there is a gas explosion with this hydrogen solution I’m guessing it will be pretty spectacular ?

ATB

Pref

[UncleEbenezer]

[1] which doesn't actually exist - my only outdoor private space is a balcony over the river.

Constantly-renewed water from the river?

Unless you own the river, it's unlikely that a river authority would permit the use of their water without some sort of paid-for licence.

Uncle E checked through all that at the time IIRC and you are correct. However, looking at the accumulation of weed on the bottom of my boat if left unused for any amount of time I suspect weed growth would have defeated his project in short order. Any heat collector in the flowing water would pretty quickly get clogged up I suspect. I dunno if Unce E ever considered this or worked out a solution.

Also, the 'flying freehold' aspect of the balcony over the water! I bet that busied the conveyancing solicitor for a while. AIUI with rivers and natural watercourses, the freehold of the land either side of a river extends out to the centreline of the water. With artificial canals, the freehold under the water is (broadly) owned by the canal company, but they do not own the water itself. No-one owns the water, apparently.

(Edit to un-mess-up my html.)

Indeed, I checked that at the time. And yes, my house's plot extends to the middle of the river, which (as it happens) is ideal for situating a heatpump on my property. As for weed, there's very little growth of anything where this would've been sited - it's moorland-grade running water, and the only likely pollution source upstream is a trout farm.

The tariff [...]

Um, no he didn't!

[Nocton]

Slight change of subject, but given the proposals for phasing out gas boilers and the massive expansion of offshore wind (and presumably some replacement/expansion of nuclear, does the board see a future for storage heating?
The windmills don't stop turning at night (or day) and i can see a 'flexible version of economy 7 where it charges up in low demand times (I believe the latest Dimplex heaters have the capability to so this).

That's. hard one to forecast. Storage heaters were never well liked due to their sheer physical volume, the way they leak heat even when turned notionally OFF, and rarely stored enough heat to go right through the day into the evening.
The principle is great, but the details of how to control and use the stored heat would need to be vastly improved. And somewhere to put all those bricks NOT in one's living room!

Yes, but see Caldera's solution which we are looking into to replace our oil boiler. https://www.caldera.co.uk/
With a smart-meter, they expect that much of the electricity will be sourced from the grid when renewable electricity generators have to 'dump' it. Prices of 5p/kwh are offered by some cos. A major plus point is no retrofitting costs as are required with heat pumps.
Note We have gone completely off-topic - time to start a new thread?

[PrefInvestor]

Yes sorry unclebeneezer, I’m afraid I made a mistake editing the quoted post. Sorry about that.

[Mike4]

Slight change of subject, but given the proposals for phasing out gas boilers and the massive expansion of offshore wind (and presumably some replacement/expansion of nuclear, does the board see a future for storage heating?
The windmills don't stop turning at night (or day) and i can see a 'flexible version of economy 7 where it charges up in low demand times (I believe the latest Dimplex heaters have the capability to so this).

That's. hard one to forecast. Storage heaters were never well liked due to their sheer physical volume, the way they leak heat even when turned notionally OFF, and rarely stored enough heat to go right through the day into the evening.
The principle is great, but the details of how to control and use the stored heat would need to be vastly improved. And somewhere to put all those bricks NOT in one's living room!

Yes, but see Caldera's solution which we are looking into to replace our oil boiler. https://www.caldera.co.uk/
With a smart-meter, they expect that much of the electricity will be sourced from the grid when renewable electricity generators have to 'dump' it. Prices of 5p/kwh are offered by some cos. A major plus point is no retrofitting costs as are required with heat pumps.
Note We have gone completely off-topic - time to start a new thread?

Twelve thousand quid for a lump of concrete disguised as a "heat battery"?!!!!

Let's get back on topic straight away!

[Mike4]

You have a valid point about storage heaters if run on a night time discounted tariff. That's effectively what these folks I have seen are doing who are putting a (large) lump of concrete in your shed, heating it overnight and then circulating water through it when heat is required the next day. I can't help thinking it isn't going to catch on. Why build in all the complexity and inefficiencies of heat exchangers, pumps etc... When standalone storage heaters do the exact same job without the complexity and inefficiencies?

RVF

These were popular back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. The GEC "Nightstore" does exactly this, and does it very well too.

I fixed a equally neat "whole house" warm air night storage storage heater a few months ago too. Fitted in the mid 1960s, first time it has gone wrong. Basically a tonne (literally) of storage heater bricks heated overnight on the White Meter(!) with a fan blowing air over them and through warm air ducts throughout the house. The fan motor had finally croaked it and amazingly, I found an equivalent motor from an electric motor supplier. Worked really well once fixed.

[Nocton]

You have a valid point about storage heaters if run on a night time discounted tariff. That's effectively what these folks I have seen are doing who are putting a (large) lump of concrete in your shed, heating it overnight and then circulating water through it when heat is required the next day. I can't help thinking it isn't going to catch on. Why build in all the complexity and inefficiencies of heat exchangers, pumps etc... When standalone storage heaters do the exact same job without the complexity and inefficiencies?

The reason large external storage heaters like Caldera's will prove a popular offering (IMO) is that they simply replace the oil tank and boiler. Just a heat-exchanger inside where the boiler was. Nothing to do inside, i.e. no radiators to rip out or change, no re-wiring to supply internal, room, storage heaters. The recent offering for shares in Caldera was massively over-subscribed as others see the potential.
I live in a village with no gas main. Most houses heated by oil or LPG. There are millions of homes in the countryside like this, with so far, no easy option to change. Air-source heat exchanges are noisy and require extensive (and expensive) retro-fitting in an existing house.

[Mike4]

You have a valid point about storage heaters if run on a night time discounted tariff. That's effectively what these folks I have seen are doing who are putting a (large) lump of concrete in your shed, heating it overnight and then circulating water through it when heat is required the next day. I can't help thinking it isn't going to catch on. Why build in all the complexity and inefficiencies of heat exchangers, pumps etc... When standalone storage heaters do the exact same job without the complexity and inefficiencies?

The reason large external storage heaters like Caldera's will prove a popular offering (IMO) is that they simply replace the oil tank and boiler. Just a heat-exchanger inside where the boiler was. Nothing to do inside, i.e. no radiators to rip out or change, no re-wiring to supply internal, room, storage heaters. The recent offering for shares in Caldera was massively over-subscribed as others see the potential.
I live in a village with no gas main. Most houses heated by oil or LPG. There are millions of homes in the countryside like this, with so far, no easy option to change. Air-source heat exchanges are noisy and require extensive (and expensive) retro-fitting in an existing house.

I do see your point. Without doubt, it is a simple solution to retrofit it to oil or coal fired wet heating systems. However, I really don't see this becoming mainstream beyond certain niches. Given the mass production (high street price) of storage heaters and the built in inefficiencies of a centralised heat storage device, I reckon that on balance storage heaters would be favoured by most. Certainly, given that choice, that's what I would choose.

RVF

Well as the owner of oil-heated house I would consider one. I'd much rather have one of those in my garden than storage radiators inside the house replacing the radiators. The physical size of a storage radiator as well as the sheer ugliness of them puts me off. With the heat battery i get to keep the fancy Victorian brass heated towel rail in my bathroom too.

Or... can a modern storage heater compete with a water-filled radiator size-for-size nowadays?