Indecipherable scribble

[staffordian]

Hope this is considered a "Does anyone know".

In researching my family history, I've come across a record for a will for a distant relative on the government "Find a will" service. The details are self evident, but there is a handwritten note, apparently added several decades after the original entry and I can't decipher what it says. So I don't know if it's relevant or not to the original entry.

So, does anyone know what it says or means?

The entry is here (third one down; Cuthbert Hawley)...



and for context, it's on this page...

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Ca ... 2#calendar

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.

Staffordian

[Mike4]

I think it says "Further <something> 26 April 1961".

Is the handwritten number 1519 with the curious character "9" significant too?

Edit to add:
That's an impressively large estate to have left in 1914 given a decent house cost about £300 back then!

[staffordian]

I think it says "Further <something> 26 April 1961".

Is the handwritten number 1519 with the curious character "9" significant too?

Yes, my interpretation was further, but I can't work out what the second word could possibly be that relates to further.

Many entries seem to have these odd numbers against them, and that strange 9 is quite typical of older writing. They must mean something; presumably a reference to something, but as to what, it's one of life's mysteries

Edit re edit: And yes, not bad. His grandfather was a colliery proprietor and pottery owner so some of his wealth filtered down the family. My link to the family is tenuous but interesting. A several times great grandmother of mine was a domestic servant to the colliery owner, and one of their sons had a "liaison" with her, resulting in the birth of another of my ancestors.

[Mike4]

I think it says "Further <something> 26 April 1961".

Is the handwritten number 1519 with the curious character "9" significant too?

Yes, my interpretation was further, but I can't work out what the second word could possibly be that relates to further.

Many entries seem to have these odd numbers against them, and that strange 9 is quite typical of older writing. They must mean something; presumably a reference to something, but as to what, it's one of life's mysteries

Edit re edit: And yes, not bad. His grandfather was a colliery proprietor and pottery owner so some of his wealth filtered down the family. My link to the family is tenuous but interesting. A several times great grandmother of mine was a domestic servant to the colliery owner, and one of their sons had a "liaison" with her, resulting in the birth of another of my ancestors.

Fascinating. My father on his death bed told me my grandfather was "a very naughty man", having two wives and two families, neither of which knew about the other. He never told me which grandfather, or how he knew!

Getting back to the missing word, is there any indication of the date the handwritten note was appended? Was it 26 April 1961 or was it much older, and there some event expected way into the future, on 26 April 1961?

[pje16]

Further Grant ?

[staffordian]

Getting back to the missing word, is there any indication of the date the handwritten note was appended? Was it 26 April 1961 or was it much older, and there some event expected way into the future, on 26 April 1961?

Unfortunately, I've nothing to go on to suggest when it was added. My guess is that 26 April 1961 is the date when something was added, but maybe someone like our resident Lancashire solicitor might have some background probate knowledge which would shed some light on this

I do know that some official documents have updates added by hand. The 1939 register, which was a sort of quick and dirty census when war was imminent was updated over several decades, with, for example, married names added later as singe girls married and changed their name. My mother is one such example in this "census".

Maybe some other relevant detail was updated here, but quite what it might be escapes me, and having looked at dozens of these summary pages in the course of my research, this is the only one I've come across with such a note. Several have updated estate values, noted by "resworn" but none of these have dates or other details

[staffordian]

Further Grant ?

Yes - quite possible. Many thanks. I'd got the first letter stuck in my mind as an s but a capital G makes sense.

Not sure what it means at such a late stage, but it does sound feasible.

[mc2fool]

Five letter word, starting with "s" and ending with "t" https://www.crosswordsolver.org/solve/s---t/

Of course, that may not be an "s", or a "t", or five letters.

Further Grant ?

Yes - quite possible. Many thanks. I'd got the first letter stuck in my mind as an s but a capital G makes sense.

Not sure what it means at such a late stage, but it does sound feasible.

Got it! Do the same search but in 1961!

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Hawley&yearOfDeath=1961&page=2#calendar

Fifth one from the top. You owe pje16 and me a pint each!

Now, as to why another grant was issued 47 years later ........... Who is Mary Elizabeth Scott?

[pje16]

Great detective work @mc2fool
but what on earth happened to the value of the effects
Down from almost £6K to £350 (approx £690,000 to 42,000 in today's values)

[staffordian]

Wow, thanks mc2fool and pje16. Really useful. Virtual pints are in the post

I've no idea (yet!) who Mary Elizabeth Scott was, but I'm guessing she's a married daughter of Cuthbert and Martha.

A follow up "Does anyone know" to keep things on topic.

If a will is fully distributed, then four decades later a further bank account is found, could this explain a further grant of probate, the amount simply being this discovered amount?

That's my initial theory unless anyone knows better.

[pje16]

Sorry @staffordian I can't help with your question
but a couple of month ago to help relieve ockdown boredom
I set up my family tree on
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/
you can get all sorts of records inc probate
and I have gone back as far as 1796 on my father's side
cheers
Paul

[staffordian]

Sorry @staffordian I can't help with your question
but a couple of month ago to help relieve ockdown boredom
I set up my family tree on
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/
you can get all sorts of records inc probate
and I have gone back as far as 1796 on my father's side
cheers
Paul

I use Legacy Family Tree to keep mine, but have put up a partial one on Ancestry. Having said that, I prefer FMP to Ancestry and had a sub to them a while ago. Now, I tend to wait for the free access offers, skinflint that I am.

Just to follow up, Cuthbert and Martha Hawley had a daughter Mary Elizabeth in 1903 and a Mary Elizabeth Hawley married a Walter Scott in Exeter in 1925 so that looks like an answer to who Mary Elizabeth Scott was.

To be honest, I'm not going to spend long on this as it's too remote from my direct line, but it's just one of those rabbit holes I find myself disappearing down from time to time when something unusual or interesting pops up as I'm researching.

[pje16]

Good to know
I did Ancestry as well as FMP, I won't be renewing(the skinflint in me) as once you have done it that's it !
I like the way Ancestry hooks into other family trees related to yours
Someone has posted an image of my great grandad and I have that photo in my posession (I was amazed by that )
PS yes rabbit holes is a good family research term

[mc2fool]

If a will is fully distributed, then four decades later a further bank account is found, could this explain a further grant of probate

Well, from a quick glance at some of the results thrown up by googling for assets found after probate the answer appears to be: probably.

I guess the most obvious way you're likely to find out the specifics behind the 47-years-later re-grant of probate is by coughing up for the Grants ... although those may still not contain any details. Still, it's only £1.50 each.....

[staffordian]

If a will is fully distributed, then four decades later a further bank account is found, could this explain a further grant of probate

Well, from a quick glance at some of the results thrown up by googling for assets found after probate the answer appears to be: probably.

I guess the most obvious way you're likely to find out the specifics behind the 47-years-later re-grant of probate is by coughing up for the Grants ... although those may still not contain any details. Still, it's only £1.50 each.....

Thanks again. I've ordered the 1961 grant, so I'll see what, if anything, it reveals.

Not sure why I'm bothering given his remoteness, but having found it, I've just got to follow it through

[gryffron]

Great detective work @mc2fool
but what on earth happened to the value of the effects
Down from almost £6K to £350 (approx £690,000 to 42,000 in today's values)

Maybe £350 is the “further grant. ie just the “extra” issued in 1961, rather than the entire estate. ??

Gryff

[pje16]

Possibly, but how does that arise after 47 years
I know probate can take some time, but surely not THAT long

[Mike4]

Possibly, but how does that arise after 47 years
I know probate can take some time, but surely not THAT long

Possibly some asset or other discovered later.

Or was there not back in those days, a type of investment/endowment policy that could not be traded or cashed in early? One simply HAD to wait until the policy matured before it paid out?

ISTR there being something like this in the game of Monopoly!

[richlist]

War Bonds?

[staffordian]

As it was the daughter to whom the later probate was granted, I can quite easily imagine that perhaps a building society passbook or similar was unexpectedly unearthed, perhaps during a house move or clear out.

Presumably either because of the unusual circumstances or an overly officious policy, the organisation would not release funds without a further grant of probate.