Searching death records

[Clitheroekid]

One might expect that a lawyer would have come across this problem before, but so far as I can recall I haven't.

I'm basically assisting a client who wants to buy some land. We know who owns the land, but his address at the Land Registry was provided over 20 years ago, and the current owner of that address knows nothing about him.

It therefore occurred to me that he may have died. I've laboriously searched the Wills and Probate Register for each of the last 20 years without finding anything, but of course he may have died without any grant having been taken out in respect of his estate.

I therefore naively assumed that there would be some way of searching the register of deaths, but having spent some considerable time on the (as usual) unhelpful gov.uk website I rang the General Register Office. They were not particularly helpful either, suggesting that if I knew where he died I could visit the local library and trawl through microfiches. I pointed out that I didn't know whether or not he was dead, which seemed to baffle the person I was speaking to.

She said there were some private companies that might help, but wouldn't name any. However, although I had a brief look at findmypast.com and ancestry.co.uk it wasn't really clear what services they offered.

So my DAK is whteher anyone knows of a way of finding out if this guy has actually died. Has anyone used the private companies, and if so are they any good and would they be able to provide this sort of information?

TIA for any assistance.

[jackdaww]

.
it is possible to apply for a death certificate on the general records office GRO website.

they need as much info as possible , so they may not find it

but if they actually find the death , that will prove it.

may be worth a try ..

[RockRabbit]

Before you try either of the private providers, go to the GRO website and register online (its free). You can then search the death register online up to, I think, 2019. But you do need sufficient info to carry out the search. This will also enable you to order a death certificate online if you so wish. This is only for E&W, Scotland has a different register.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... /login.asp

You can probably get a free trial with Ancestry.co.uk and if so you can have a play around on there without committing any money. They do have UK death records but I don't know how recent you can go.

[Lootman]

If the registry of deaths is not readily searchable then I don't know. And even if it was, someone might have died overseas and not be on it.

I wonder how the taxman figures it out. After all if they stop receiving annual self-assessment tax returns from someone then they might want to know that is because of death? HMRC would also need to know who has died to discover if there is unpaid inheritance tax.

[Breelander]

How about this...

General Register Office
Official information on births, adoptions, marriages,civil partnerships and deaths in England and Wales
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... /Login.asp

A number of our indexes are available to search online for free. Online indexes are available for: birth records from 1837 up to 100 years ago, and 1984 up to the current year; and death records from 1837 to 1957, and 1984 up to the current year....
...
Q4. Is there a charge to use the online index?
No, the index is available free of charge for customers, but you must have a registered GRO online certificate ordering account. This can be set up via the GRO online ordering site. Online Indexes can be located here.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... s/CG11.pdf

[Dod101]

The owner may have died but may not. Would it not be more productive to assume that he is around somewhere? This is presumably barren land with nothing on it, not rented out to anyone and in all just sitting there. No maintenance of any sort, no taxes to be paid on it. These would all I think provide some sort of lead which might prove helpful. How about a search of the deeds of the last known address? Did the registered owner have any local connections? There are firms that specialise in this sort of thing, in fact I had a letter out of the blue from such a firm seeking information as to the whereabouts of my stepson because he was named in his Aunt's will. I was able to help and no doubt the guy got a fee for a simple enquiry.

It seems to me that without any information, searching the death statutory records is like researching the proverbial needle in a haystack since, if he died, he could have died anywhere and unless he has a particularly unusual name how will you know if he is your man?

Dod

[GrahamPlatt]

All the above seems to assume that if he has died, it was in the UK...

[GrahamPlatt]

If there’s no record of him, then could you get him “declared” dead. And hopefully not run into this situation; https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... -isnt-dead

[Lootman]

All the above seems to assume that if he has died, it was in the UK...

Not "all of the above":

If the registry of deaths is not readily searchable then I don't know. And even if it was, someone might have died overseas and not be on it.

[Arborbridge]

There's also freebmd.co.uk. It won't help much as Dod says, if you don't know where he died. I've always found that a stumbling block when searching as it results in sometimes applying for irrelevant death certs to find out more.

Arb.

[GrahamPlatt]

Not "all of the above":

Mea culpa.

[XFool]

.it is possible to apply for a death certificate on the general records office GRO website.

they need as much info as possible , so they may not find it

but if they actually find the death , that will prove it.

may be worth a try ..

I honestly don't know anything about searching for death certificates, at least not UK ones. But I do know about UK Birth Certificates!
You can't generally search for birth certificates on the GRO site! At least not unless you are quite young or very old and possibly dead. This is a bit weird...

What you do - for birth certificates - is search first on another site, in the Birth Index volumes. This turns up the target Name entry in the appropriate Registration District index by Year, Quarter, of the birth in the actual GRO Birth Registration Record volumes. This index entry will show Volume and Page No. which, along with the Year, Quarter, Registration District is the pointer into the registration volume itself.

Armed with this information you can go back to the GRO and request a suitable certificate electronically, the cheapest would be a PDF by email.

N.B. The 'Quarter' is a little odd as named after the final month so: March, June, September, December. This can matter: If you were born say on say 20 June then, with 42 days to legally register birth, you could have been registered in July. As July is in the third quarter you would be in the September quarter registration volumes.

The site to do this is FreeBMD (Free Births Marriages Deaths): https://www.freebmd.org.uk

You could give all the details you have to the GRO (by post?) and pay them but, as FreeBMD does what it says on the tin you can search away for free.

I assume the death certification process is much the same as for births, but I have never used it.

[Mike4]

I wonder if a completely different avenue of enquiry might be council tax or business rates. Presumably all land has to pay one or the other, so could an enquiry to the local council about whether the tax/rates account is up to date at least yield a clue as to whether the missing owner is still paying them?

Another tack I guess is the adverse possession route. If your client puts a big shiny fence up with a sign on it saying he is adversely possessing the land and giving contact details, someone will probably pop up objecting, should there be anyone to notice.

[XFool]

There's also freebmd.co.uk. It won't help much as Dod says, if you don't know where he died. I've always found that a stumbling block when searching as it results in sometimes applying for irrelevant death certs to find out more.

Yes, but No, but...

Yes, you do need the registration district to apply for the certificate. But, as FreeBMD itself is free, you can at least search the GRO index volumes as much as you like at no cost. Obviously, without full information, this could be very time consuming. Might help if they had an unusual name - hopefully not 'John Smith'.

[XFool]

Yes, you do need the registration district to apply for the certificate.

Except that if you do find the record via FreeBMD then you've already found the Registration District, so... you have all you need.

If you search using FreeBMD you are searching the GRO's own Index volumes for the Birth/Marriage/Death Registrations. You can also execute a search on 'All' districts on FreeBMD.

IMO, you really do need FreeBMD here - https://www.freebmd.org.uk

[GoSeigen]

IMO, you really do need FreeBMD here - https://www.freebmd.org.uk

It won't work. Death coverage on FreeBMD is non-existent in recent years.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/progressD.shtml#y1984


GS
P.S. PM sent to OP.

[XFool]

...Ah.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/faq.asp#GROIndexReferences

"10. The GRO online indexes
A number of GRO birth and death indexes are freely available to search online. These cover birth records from 1837 up to 100 years ago, and 1984 up to the current year; and death records from 1837 to 1957, and 1984 up to the current year. The following documents provide an overview and guide to using these indexes.

GRO is currently working on a rolling programme to put all of its indexes online. We will notify you via our website when new indexes are added."

That presumably means through FreeBMD! So sounds like patience all round.

"These cover birth records from 1837 up to 100 years ago, and 1984 up to the current year"

Weird! Birth index records are available over a wider range via FreeBMD. I believe that hole ("up to 100 years ago") so ~1921 - 1984 in the birth index record online at the GRO site is covered by FreeBMD - indeed the GRO advise this themselves on their own website.

[XFool]

No 12. May help: https://www.freebmd.org.uk/FAQ.html#12

[Avantegarde]

A few years ago I obtained the death certificate of an old school chum who had, it transpired, died about 30 years previously! I obtained it from Camden council who were the local authority that covered both his home when we had been at school together and his home when he died. Anyhow, I got the certificate to confirm a rumour that he had indeed died a long time ago. For reasons that I cannot remember I was advised, correctly, to go to the town hall for the info. Maybe you could try the same route? Of course that will be no use if he is still alive or has died elsewhere.

[Avantegarde]

A question: is the fact that the mystery owner's name is still on the Land Registry records not a good indication that he is, in fact, still alive? After all, how often do people buy or inherit land and forget or fail to change the ownership registration? Surely it is the first thing most people would do?