Smart meters

[staffordian]

and everyone will be on low power lighting pretty soon so there won't be much in the way of quick wins in terms of usage to mop up... which leaves ...??

Here's one, the battery is topped up off-peak, then when a rolling blackout inevitably comes along, bingo, you can still fire up your gas central heating boiler and run the circulating pump using the battery juice. Kind of handy in January in North Scotland.

The problem is that if the power goes off, the battery power has to be kept totally isolated from the incoming supply, which is apparently not a simple matter.

If its not, there is a risk of electrocution to anyone working on the supply as it can be live from the consumer's battery setup. As I understand it, the standard arrangement at the moment is that if the supply fails, the backup must switch off too.

Perhaps I've slightly misunderstood, hopefully someone with better knowledge will be able to explain it in more detail.

[modellingman]

and everyone will be on low power lighting pretty soon so there won't be much in the way of quick wins in terms of usage to mop up... which leaves ...??

Here's one, the battery is topped up off-peak, then when a rolling blackout inevitably comes along, bingo, you can still fire up your gas central heating boiler and run the circulating pump using the battery juice. Kind of handy in January in North Scotland.

The problem is that if the power goes off, the battery power has to be kept totally isolated from the incoming supply, which is apparently not a simple matter.

If its not, there is a risk of electrocution to anyone working on the supply as it can be live from the consumer's battery setup. As I understand it, the standard arrangement at the moment is that if the supply fails, the backup must switch off too.

Perhaps I've slightly misunderstood, hopefully someone with better knowledge will be able to explain it in more detail.

That's broadly correct. However, there are systems available (but not necessarily approved for UK use) which will electrically disconnect the domestic system from the mains supply and allow it to be run as an isolated system from either a battery/inverter system or a local generator.

I suspect one of the technical issues is the variety of earthing arrangements that exist and getting a domestic system truly isolated without compromising the safety aspects provided by earthing. Anyone who has had electrical certification work done over the past few years (eg landlords for whom it became compulsory a couple of years ago) will have found that there has been a big focus on ensuring that earthing arrangements meet technical requirements.

Kit which will perform such isolation needs to be capable of resynching with the grid once reconnected.

[modellingman]

Smart devices I can understand, though your car, immersion heaters and storage radiators are about the only things that can usefully shift to accommodate projected costs. About everything else uses too little power to justify the complexity, or can't time shift.

Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.

Um... And you don't see that as a problem?

One day we'll have smart fridge/freezers that can concentrate most of their usage when it's cheap.

Surely fridge/freezers are the kind of things that need to operate when they need to operate?

Not really. In the UK, electricity is traded in half-hour time slots (in some parts of the world it is 15 minute slots). The price paid by your supplier, if they haven't adequately bought ahead, can increase considerably in those half-hour time slots when there is a mismatch between their supply and the demand of their customers. There are no doubt already some contracts where operators of large cold stores are incentivised to switch off their compressors for short periods to assist with short term peak supply-demand matching - there was certainly a lot of discussion of this 20 years ago when NETA (the new electricity trading arrangements) were being implemented. The thermal inertia in most kinds of cold stores, including domestic freezers, is such that the absence of power for even several hours will generally not have a detrimental impact on the stored contents. The technology requirement is not that great: some pricing information via the smart meter, temperature monitoring of the appliance and an algorithm to tie these things together. Not that much different to the increasingly smart control systems that exist for domestic heating.

[scotview]

Kit which will perform such isolation needs to be capable of resynching with the grid once reconnected.

Thanks for your reply.

I am interested in a UK supplied system "Givenergy".

It looks like it auto-disconnects on sensing loss of grid supply. It auto-disconnects on break before make and vice versa, so no synching required for low wattage loads. You would need an earth rod installed with suitable measured resistance.

To supply a domestic gas fired boiler and circulating pump would take about 200 Watts, worst case including start current.

We have a VW BEV with a 48kWh battery sitting in the drive and the industry really needs to get this huge latent energy source sorted out.

[didds]

Surely fridge/freezers are the kind of things that need to operate when they need to operate?

particularly when the time they need to do stuff is when the doors are being opened and closed ie warmer air gets in. which tends to be waking hours.

didds

[servodude]

Kit which will perform such isolation needs to be capable of resynching with the grid once reconnected.

Thanks for your reply.

I am interested in a UK supplied system "Givenergy".

It looks like it auto-disconnects on sensing loss of grid supply. It auto-disconnects on break before make and vice versa, so no synching required for low wattage loads. You would need an earth rod installed with suitable measured resistance.

To supply a domestic gas fired boiler and circulating pump would take about 200 Watts, worst case including start current.

We have a VW BEV with a 48kWh battery sitting in the drive and the industry really needs to get this huge latent energy source sorted out.

It will happen.

The tech and equipment will become more readily available - and with each grid failure there will be more adopters (residential, commercial and provider).

The opportunities for storage have really changed the landscape.

A decade ago it was all about removing load; with automated demand response schemes cedeing remote control over parts of your supply in return for an overall reduction in tariff
- but now there's the possibility of using local storage (whether BEV or onsite) to smooth peak surges and hopefully avoid grid failure
- with the backup that you can have isolation and an inverter to tide you over for a while should it happen

All a lot more comfortable than syphoning fuel out the car to use in a generator

- sd

[AF62]

I know there isn’t much to watch on TV these days, but things are bad if that is the alternative.

seems about right . watching the wheel I mean.

It is satisfying to watch it go backwards occasionally

I thought the whole point of "smart" meters was to prevent people with solar panels making it run backwards, or is that allowed now?

The 'whole point of smart meters' is to enable demand-sensitive pricing.

You ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until you are being charged £5 per kWh at 5-7pm and 10p at 4am... you'll regret getting that smart meter!

And you don’t think the incentive to have a smart meter will be that if you have a dumb meter you are charged at £5 per kWh 24 hours a day?

[scrumpyjack]

Oh dear, they have now declared that the 'Certification' of my existing meter has now expired so I cannot refuse to have it replaced with a 'smart' meter.

[richlist]

I didn't think it would as compulsory.

[scrumpyjack]

I didn't think it would as compulsory.

Sadly it is.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electricity ... c%20meters.

The seal on my meter is dated 1989 so 33 years is outside the certification life they refer to

[didds]

so wrt obligatory smart meters... where is its "aerial" / "antenna" to connect to whatever wireless connection may or may not exist in your area?

didds

[Hallucigenia]

so wrt obligatory smart meters... where is its "aerial" / "antenna" to connect to whatever wireless connection may or may not exist in your area?

didds

Same place as in your mobile phone - built into the case.

[pje16]

I have been on the internet to try and find out why I should get a smart meter. There is blurb about how it will help cut CO2 emissions but no actually explanation as to how this is achieved. Yes, I will be able to see what I am using but how does that cut emissions?

I won't be getting one, I don't need a gadget to tell me to turn things off, I know how to do that.... and I'd rather do my own readings

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
This thread is WAY off-topic for DAK. You can all see the forum rules in red at the top of the page. I am locking the topic now. If the OP wants the topic moved elsewhere, they may contact me by PM to request this. (chas49)