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Smart meters

Straight answers to factual questions
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UncleEbenezer
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Re: Smart meters

#509243

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 24th, 2022, 12:54 pm

XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:One day we'll have smart fridge/freezers that can concentrate most of their usage when it's cheap.

Surely fridge/freezers are the kind of things that need to operate when they need to operate?


Up to a point. But they're designed to survive long power cuts without compromising the contents when kept closed. So a first-pass smart scheme[1] would be to treat peak pricing as a power cut and wait it out where possible. And conversely, get ahead of the game in time slots ahead of anticipated rises.

[1] If I were actually doing the job of developing it I'd look in detail and come up with something smarter. It would be no great task for it to learn expectations from experience of daily, weekly and annual pricing cycles in a "fully auto" mode.

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Re: Smart meters

#509253

Postby servodude » June 24th, 2022, 1:26 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:One day we'll have smart fridge/freezers that can concentrate most of their usage when it's cheap.

Surely fridge/freezers are the kind of things that need to operate when they need to operate?


Up to a point. But they're designed to survive long power cuts without compromising the contents when kept closed. So a first-pass smart scheme[1] would be to treat peak pricing as a power cut and wait it out where possible. And conversely, get ahead of the game in time slots ahead of anticipated rises.

[1] If I were actually doing the job of developing it I'd look in detail and come up with something smarter. It would be no great task for it to learn expectations from experience of daily, weekly and annual pricing cycles in a "fully auto" mode.


Devil's in the details though, but you're right, and it's a pretty common way of thinking now.
Demand globally has grown faster than infrastructure has been able to keep with up such that grids around the planet can't really cope with peak/surge demand.... so ADR (automated demand response) is a "thing" and pretty lucrative in some domains at present (looking at you California)
The requirements to cope with such stuff... and more importantly the realization around it and its existence is permeating through a lot of disciplines that previously just didn't care

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Re: Smart meters

#509256

Postby mc2fool » June 24th, 2022, 1:34 pm

XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.

Um... And you don't see that as a problem?

Um... And what exactly is the problem with running the washing machine and dishwasher during the Economy 7 cheaper tariff hours?

staffordian
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Re: Smart meters

#509363

Postby staffordian » June 24th, 2022, 7:04 pm

mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.

Um... And you don't see that as a problem?

Um... And what exactly is the problem with running the washing machine and dishwasher during the Economy 7 cheaper tariff hours?

I can think of two issues immediately

Being woken by the spin cycle, and the potentially long time between any leak happening and being found.

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Re: Smart meters

#509371

Postby XFool » June 24th, 2022, 8:03 pm

staffordian wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.

Um... And you don't see that as a problem?

Um... And what exactly is the problem with running the washing machine and dishwasher during the Economy 7 cheaper tariff hours?

I can think of two issues immediately

Being woken by the spin cycle, and the potentially long time between any leak happening and being found.

Of course.

And in both cases: "being woken by the spin cycle" and "...any leak happening", depending on the domestic circumstances, may not apply to only the owner of the washing machine.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Smart meters

#509415

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 24th, 2022, 10:09 pm

staffordian wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.

Um... And you don't see that as a problem?

Um... And what exactly is the problem with running the washing machine and dishwasher during the Economy 7 cheaper tariff hours?

I can think of two issues immediately

Being woken by the spin cycle, and the potentially long time between any leak happening and being found.


Well, speaking as the poster who first mentioned it:

- My recollection is that I'd set it to wash but stop at the final rinse, so I'd run the spin in the morning. That was for the benefit of the clothes (not being left in the machine after the spin) rather than anything to do with sleep.

- If a leak happens, how does it help if I'm sitting in my home office, two floors up from the machine? Or most other places I spend time during the day?

Nowadays (not on economy 7) I'll still often run the dishwasher overnight. Being a modern dishwasher, I can set it to delay starting, so it finishes around the time I anticipate getting up next morning.

Mike4
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Re: Smart meters

#509428

Postby Mike4 » June 24th, 2022, 10:48 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
Hallucigenia wrote:Modern electric cars have enough technology in them that they could ring home to VW, Tesla etc by themselves to find out what the current price of electricity is, but that's less true of all the other devices in the home, and it makes sense to have a single standard point of reference in the household to receive information on variable tariffs. That single point of reference is a smart meter.


Most electrical appliances have no need to run at night (IOT toaster, anyone?). You are left with basically car charging, refrigeration and storage heaters. These few items could just as easily connect to your wi-fi rather than a smart meter.

And the problem with load switching ideas in general is that they will enourage the energy supply industry to have less spare capacity - which is inherently risky and will eventually backfire.



Totally agree. They will just bank all the load switching we voluntarily do (and pay the cost of), then demand more.

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Re: Smart meters

#509433

Postby Mike4 » June 24th, 2022, 10:53 pm

staffordian wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.

Um... And you don't see that as a problem?

Um... And what exactly is the problem with running the washing machine and dishwasher during the Economy 7 cheaper tariff hours?

I can think of two issues immediately

Being woken by the spin cycle, and the potentially long time between any leak happening and being found.


I've just been listening to next door's spin cycle running, now I live in the hovel not the boat.

Its not that intrusive really but in the quiet of the night I can clearly hear it.

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Re: Smart meters

#509448

Postby mc2fool » June 24th, 2022, 11:55 pm

XFool wrote:
staffordian wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.

Um... And you don't see that as a problem?

Um... And what exactly is the problem with running the washing machine and dishwasher during the Economy 7 cheaper tariff hours?

I can think of two issues immediately

Being woken by the spin cycle, and the potentially long time between any leak happening and being found.

Of course.

And in both cases: "being woken by the spin cycle" and "...any leak happening", depending on the domestic circumstances, may not apply to only the owner of the washing machine.

Well blimey, how noisy are your washing machines? I have a small 2 bed flat (built in 1979) and all the inner doors are kept open all the time (so, no wood between the kitchen and my bed) and I've never been woken by mine. Actually my dishwasher is nosier (the drain pump) and it's never woken me either, and I can't say I've ever heard any of my neighbours appliances. So, yes, I guess the noise factor does depend on domestic circumstances.....

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Re: Smart meters

#509471

Postby csearle » June 25th, 2022, 8:48 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.
I'm on Economy 7. I tried that once when I moved in here. (Not just) I was awoken by the old lady in the flat below rapping on the door with her walking stick ordering me to turn it off. So I have to use the relatively expensive day rate for my laundry. Things are not always straightforward.

Chris

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Re: Smart meters

#509479

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 25th, 2022, 9:08 am

csearle wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Once upon a time I had Economy 7. So the washing machine and dishwasher always ran in the wee hours.
I'm on Economy 7. I tried that once when I moved in here. (Not just) I was awoken by the old lady in the flat below rapping on the door with her walking stick ordering me to turn it off. So I have to use the relatively expensive day rate for my laundry. Things are not always straightforward.

Chris

You may have missed:
UncleEbenezer wrote:- My recollection is that I'd set it to wash but stop at the final rinse, so I'd run the spin in the morning. That was for the benefit of the clothes (not being left in the machine after the spin) rather than anything to do with sleep.


There was a very old (90+) lady in the flat downstairs at the time. When she died and a 30-ish man bought the flat, I could hear his music, and he wasn't playing it loudly. :cry:

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Re: Smart meters

#509920

Postby Dod101 » June 27th, 2022, 8:34 am

There is an article in the Times this morning saying that electricity users could be paid this winter to move their electricity usage from peak demand periods to periods of less demand for things like using a washing machine, cooking and charging an electric car. Peak demand is usually 4.30 pm to 6.30 pm and the idea is to avoid rolling blackouts this coming winter. I would be happy to participate in that.

It could only be used where the user has a smart meter of course.

Dod

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Re: Smart meters

#509922

Postby scotview » June 27th, 2022, 8:41 am

Dod101 wrote:There is an article in the Times this morning saying that electricity Peak demand is usually 4.30 pm to 6.30 pm and the idea is to avoid rolling blackouts this coming winter.
Dod


It looks like smart meters and battery storage is getting to be a no brainer.

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Re: Smart meters

#509924

Postby staffordian » June 27th, 2022, 8:48 am

scotview wrote:
Dod101 wrote:There is an article in the Times this morning saying that electricity Peak demand is usually 4.30 pm to 6.30 pm and the idea is to avoid rolling blackouts this coming winter.
Dod


It looks like smart meters and battery storage is getting to be a no brainer.

It's certainly so from a technical point of view, as are solar panels (which are, I suppose, a given if one is contemplating battery storage).

But I'm far from convinced they are yet a no brainer economically speaking.

Either battery prices need to fall considerably or significant subsidies are needed to make battery storage widespread enough to make a real difference.

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Re: Smart meters

#509969

Postby servodude » June 27th, 2022, 10:55 am

staffordian wrote:
scotview wrote:
Dod101 wrote:There is an article in the Times this morning saying that electricity Peak demand is usually 4.30 pm to 6.30 pm and the idea is to avoid rolling blackouts this coming winter.
Dod


It looks like smart meters and battery storage is getting to be a no brainer.

It's certainly so from a technical point of view, as are solar panels (which are, I suppose, a given if one is contemplating battery storage).

But I'm far from convinced they are yet a no brainer economically speaking.

Either battery prices need to fall considerably or significant subsidies are needed to make battery storage widespread enough to make a real difference.


I can easily see battery subsidies becoming a thing in the medium term. Just for the technical no-brainer aspects.

"They" don't really proportionally increase supply capacity when there are new houses built - and everyone will be on low power lighting pretty soon so there won't be much in the way of quick wins in terms of usage to mop up... which leaves ...??

If it was a circuit board and I needed transient power for a motor I'd drop bucket caps on where the power is needed; battery storage will do the same job at the home scale.

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Re: Smart meters

#509970

Postby JohnB » June 27th, 2022, 11:06 am

I can't read the Times article behind its paywall, but while I can see that people might be asked to time-shift consumption out of the evening peak, I'm puzzled by the reward mechanism. Would it be by granular charging, comparing one year's usage with the last and noting the 'negawatts', or by declaration?

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Re: Smart meters

#509972

Postby Mike4 » June 27th, 2022, 11:16 am

staffordian wrote:
scotview wrote:
Dod101 wrote:There is an article in the Times this morning saying that electricity Peak demand is usually 4.30 pm to 6.30 pm and the idea is to avoid rolling blackouts this coming winter.
Dod


It looks like smart meters and battery storage is getting to be a no brainer.

It's certainly so from a technical point of view, as are solar panels (which are, I suppose, a given if one is contemplating battery storage).

But I'm far from convinced they are yet a no brainer economically speaking.

Either battery prices need to fall considerably or significant subsidies are needed to make battery storage widespread enough to make a real difference.



OR, press that mahoosive battery we will all have in our electric cars into service for time-shifting our domestic loads.

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Re: Smart meters

#509992

Postby Dod101 » June 27th, 2022, 12:16 pm

JohnB wrote:I can't read the Times article behind its paywall, but while I can see that people might be asked to time-shift consumption out of the evening peak, I'm puzzled by the reward mechanism. Would it be by granular charging, comparing one year's usage with the last and noting the 'negawatts', or by declaration?


Glad to try to answer that. All the article says is that 'households typically pay 28.34p per KWH...... but instead could be paid as much as £6 for each KWH that they avoid using at peak times'. That is not very clear but it seems that National Grid has carried out trials with about 100,000 Octopus Energy customers this year. The article goes on to say that the cost of the scheme would be levied on household bills but it would save NatGrid in having to pay top prices for the peak demand otherwise required, the implication being that it would avoid even higher charges.

Basically the principal is to give customers a discount for demand shifting rather than paying top whack to say coal fired power stations.

It goes no further than that but maybe an Octopus customer reading this could help with the detail.

Dod

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Re: Smart meters

#510006

Postby scotview » June 27th, 2022, 1:29 pm

servodude wrote:and everyone will be on low power lighting pretty soon so there won't be much in the way of quick wins in terms of usage to mop up... which leaves ...??


Here's one, the battery is topped up off-peak, then when a rolling blackout inevitably comes along, bingo, you can still fire up your gas central heating boiler and run the circulating pump using the battery juice. Kind of handy in January in North Scotland.

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Re: Smart meters

#510012

Postby servodude » June 27th, 2022, 1:52 pm

scotview wrote:
servodude wrote:and everyone will be on low power lighting pretty soon so there won't be much in the way of quick wins in terms of usage to mop up... which leaves ...??


Here's one, the battery is topped up off-peak, then when a rolling blackout inevitably comes along, bingo, you can still fire up your gas central heating boiler and run the circulating pump using the battery juice. Kind of handy in January in North Scotland.


Whatever works for you ;)
- but it's better to try and stop the grid crashing in the first place :)


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