RNLI

[Arizona11]

I saw an advert for the RNLI on TV and they said that they rely completely on donations to exist. Why is is not paid for out of public funds as they are effectively an emergency service, like the fire brigade and ambulance?

[Arborbridge]

I saw an advert for the RNLI on TV and they said that they rely completely on donations to exist. Why is is not paid for out of public funds as they are effectively an emergency service, like the fire brigade and ambulance?

I've often thought that. I think it's history, since there never was a service until locals decided to do it themselves. No one in government would have cared about the loss of a few fishermen at that time - such folk were below the radar.

So it just stayed that way. Which does show a problem about volunteering: once you start doing it, you are stuck for ever, even if it is something the tax payer should provide.

I can hear opposing voices, of course, saying that if people are foolish enough to get into trouble enjoying their leisure - windsurfing, sailing etc - then they should pay for it themselves.

What I find interesting is why ordinary landlubbers in cities donate to the RNLI.

Arb.

[Urbandreamer]

I saw an advert for the RNLI on TV and they said that they rely completely on donations to exist. Why is is not paid for out of public funds as they are effectively an emergency service, like the fire brigade and ambulance?

Well I suggest that you look into history.

Fire brigades were not always supported by the state.
Fire brigades in the UK were voluntary, until Edinburgh had a huge fire. Even then it only covered Edinburgh and was paid for by the town. It wasn't until 1938 that they became national and paid out of state taxes.

The first significant ambulances were provided by, wait for it, the St John Ambulance Brigade in London. Err isn't that still a voluntary organization?
I suspect that nationally we had to wait for the NHS.

Then you consider what percentage of the tax payer base benefits from the services of the RNLI.

Don't get me wrong. I do think that they are a worthy organization and have donated in the past. However it remains a very valid question.

Of course you could campaign for the state to pay for the service. After all we pay for things like the National Opera, who officially are moving to Manchester, but will retain and continue performing at the building they own in London. All you have to do is convince enough MP's to get an act through parliament.

[Laughton]

When 97% of the frontline RNLI lifesavers are volunteers (quote from its website) does the charity really need to pay its CEO £160,000 per year?

I'm afraid it's a bugbear of mine - charity CEOs paid, what I consider to be, extorionate amounts of money.

In mitigation:

Since his commencement with the RNLI in May 2019, the current Chief Executive has personally chosen not to accept any annual pay increases, he does not receive any additional allowances, he does not receive a Company Car or Car Allowance and has also chosen not to receive RNLI employers’ pension contributions. The Chief Executive does have an employee benefit of 1 x salary life assurance cover.

[scotview]

I saw an advert for the RNLI on TV and they said that they rely completely on donations to exist.

To give some historical context, a photo from 1890 of a lifeboat stationed at a local, small fishing village of Inverallochy, with a population of about a 1000 souls at that time. Very high risk to the crew in relation to number of able bodied men in the village. There wasn't a lot of wealth and quite a lot of poverty in these villages at that time, which makes it all the more remarkable.

[Lanark]

The RNLI is run largely by volunteers who are paid expenses only.
The RNLI is vastly smaller than either fire or ambulance services, like way less than 1%.

If they were pulled into public ownership, there would be a huge bureaucratic management structure and everyone would have to be paid at least minimum wage for a role which mostly involves sitting around waiting for a call-out.

The RNLI often rescue migrants arriving on leaky boats, if our current political leaders had a say in it they would be left to drown.

The RNLI is only 1 of around 30 similar services around the coast, when you call the coastguard they will hand off to the nearest service. So if you nationalised one you'd have to nationalise them all.

I'm not sure who owns the RNLI, but if the government paid them the value of buildings and equipment and that money was shared amongst all the staff they would probably all retire to nice villas in Spain causing a recruitment crisis.

If they did manage to overcome all those issues, then they would probably immediately privatise it, so we would end up with something like "EasyLifeboats.com, if you want a lifejacket that will be £50 extra" they already have the orange colour scheme.

So maybe just don't try to fix something that isn't broken!

[mc2fool]

When 97% of the frontline RNLI lifesavers are volunteers (quote from its website) does the charity really need to pay its CEO £160,000 per year?

I'm afraid it's a bugbear of mine - charity CEOs paid, what I consider to be, extorionate amounts of money.

Presumably the trustees believe that's what's needed to retain someone of a suitable calibre, and that the current one is worth it.

How much do you think would be appropriate for someone that runs an outfit that has annual income & expenditure of £230 million, assets of three quarters of a billion £, 2400 employees and 200,000 volunteers?

[Tedx]

Mountain rescue is also funded by donations. So much time, effort and money must go into raising money for this that you have to think it would just be easier for the government fund them directly.

I recall a friend in Germany (back in the 80s) that they had a 'Charity Deduction' from their salaries (I can't remember if it was mandatory and I don't know know if it's still on the go). That didn't seem a half bad idea to me.

[Dod101]

What I find interesting is why ordinary landlubbers in cities donate to the RNLI.

Arb.

For the last several years I have lived about as far from the sea as is possible on these islands and yet I have supported the RNLI all my life. I do it because when I was at school in the 1950s, in a small fishing village not far from where I lived, the lifeboat was called out one wild night and in the morning, it was evident it was missing with all hands. On board were a father and son amongst of course the other crewmen. In my class was the sister of the missing father and son and the anguish of that has never left me. In fact, just about everyone knew of or knew one of the missing crew members. That was long before the days of self righting boats of course and going to sea in them in these days was highly hazardous.

The crews do it I guess for the same reason that mountain rescue teams exist, to help others and as we all know there is no greater sacrifice than putting your life on the line for others.

Dod

[didds]

If they were pulled into public ownership, there would be a huge bureaucratic management structure and everyone would have to be paid at least minimum wage for a role which mostly involves sitting around waiting for a call-out.!

Im not disagreeing - but how does that compare to retained firefighters? Im sure they don't get paid to be sitting around waiting for a call-out ?

[Dod101]

Mountain rescue is also funded by donations. So much time, effort and money must go into raising money for this that you have to think it would just be easier for the government fund them directly.

I recall a friend in Germany (back in the 80s) that they had a 'Charity Deduction' from their salaries (I can't remember if it was mandatory and I don't know know if it's still on the go). That didn't seem a half bad idea to me.

Yes but the point is that, like lifeboat crews, mountain rescue teams are made up of those local to the community and have probably known each other for many years and can therefore work together and trust each other. Besides, communities see the mountain rescue team as ‘theirs’ and are much more likely to support it than if it were some anonymous bureaucracy.

Dod

[kiloran]

People comment on a local care charity and ask why it isn't government funded. Although they get some money from government, the charity prefers to raise most of the money themselves. The reasoning is that government funding can be cut at any time, making planning difficult. Raising money themselves gives them reasonable control year by year, and reasonable independence of government policy.

I don't know if this is also the RNLI view

--kiloran

[Dod101]

People comment on a local care charity and ask why it isn't government funded. Although they get some money from government, the charity prefers to raise most of the money themselves. The reasoning is that government funding can be cut at any time, making planning difficult. Raising money themselves gives them reasonable control year by year, and reasonable independence of government policy.

--kiloran

I think there is a huge amount in favour of raising funds locally and especially if you can persuade the local community that it is ‘their’facility. Given the state of Government finances it is surely looking like a better alternative anyway.

Dod

[Lanark]

If they were pulled into public ownership, there would be a huge bureaucratic management structure and everyone would have to be paid at least minimum wage for a role which mostly involves sitting around waiting for a call-out.!

Im not disagreeing - but how does that compare to retained firefighters? Im sure they don't get paid to be sitting around waiting for a call-out ?

In big cities the fire crews are kept busy enough, in small towns we still have quite a few voluntary fire crews.

[Dod101]

Im not disagreeing - but how does that compare to retained firefighters? Im sure they don't get paid to be sitting around waiting for a call-out ?

In big cities the fire crews are kept busy enough, in small towns we still have quite a few voluntary fire crews.

My understanding is that in cities fire crews are paid to work full time, if not attending fires, then training, cleaning appliances, advising the public about fire safety and so on.

In small towns and villages in the countryside, such as where I live they are what is known as ‘retained firefighters’. Not exactly volunteers because they are paid something and in return for that spend one evening a week training and they answer their pager when there is a call out. They are mostly made up of self employed local tradesmen. I assume that they are paid extra for each call out but I do not know.

Dod

[didds]

Im not disagreeing - but how does that compare to retained firefighters? Im sure they don't get paid to be sitting around waiting for a call-out ?

In big cities the fire crews are kept busy enough, in small towns we still have quite a few voluntary fire crews.

exactly. hence my query

[didds]

In small towns and villages in the countryside, such as where I live they are what is known as ‘retained firefighters’. Not exactly volunteers because they are paid something and in return for that spend one evening a week training and they answer their pager when there is a call out. They are mostly made up of self employed local tradesmen. I assume that they are paid extra for each call out but I do not know.

Dod

exactly. Hence my reflection on the previous point abvout rnli volunteers 9who are unpaid of course)

" everyone would have to be paid at least minimum wage for a role which mostly involves sitting around waiting for a call-out.!"

so lifeboat crews arent paid to sit around waiting a call out. and neither are retained fire crews.

Im obviously not making my query clear enough

[Dod101]

In small towns and villages in the countryside, such as where I live they are what is known as ‘retained firefighters’. Not exactly volunteers because they are paid something and in return for that spend one evening a week training and they answer their pager when there is a call out. They are mostly made up of self employed local tradesmen. I assume that they are paid extra for each call out but I do not know.

Dod

exactly. Hence my reflection on the previous point abvout rnli volunteers 9who are unpaid of course)

" everyone would have to be paid at least minimum wage for a role which mostly involves sitting around waiting for a call-out.!"

so lifeboat crews arent paid to sit around waiting a call out. and neither are retained fire crews.

Im obviously not making my query clear enough

I am not entirely what your point is but the retained firefighter must on occasion I assume be assisted by the full time paid fireman and so it would not be compatable for paid crew and volunteers to be working alongside each other.

Against that, I think the coxswain is the only paid member of a lifeboat crew. He has responsibility for ensuring that the lifeboat is available at all times. The crew are all volunteers and would as I understand it want it no other way. They put in a lot of time training of course and I have no idea whether they are paid for that or not but I assume they will at least get their expenses reimbursed.

Dod

[Howard]

Two stories about relevant charities.

Company I worked for had a charity drive and funded the major part of the cost of new lifeboat for Isle of Wight. So RNLI invited me, as co-ordinator, for a trip out on their new boat. It was a summer day and we left Cowes with me next to the helmsman in my hi vis RNLI lifejacket and waterproofs.

As a fair weather imposter I really enjoyed the friendly and grateful waves from the hundreds of yacht people we passed.

On another occasion, I knew one of the volunteer firemen in our city fire brigade. They had a vintage fire engine. The city was twinned with a French city and the brigade were invited to France for a visit. They were a hit, arriving clinging on to the outside of the truck with bells ringing and were royally entertained by the local Pompiers.

As they were leaving, the Chef du Pompiers said to the English Fire Chief with a wink “We promised you some wine - it’s in your tanks - you know nothing”.

When they got back to the UK they found that their French colleagues had filled their water tanks with wine. They must have backed up a tanker to do it. By all accounts it was very good Vin Ordinaire and such a huge quantity that it took days to siphon it all out into bottles.

It’s unlikely that these events would have occurred if the organisations had to work under public sector rules.

regards

Howard

[MuddyBoots]

Interesting discussion. There's also the air ambulance helicopters which (from memory) are charitable, and there's plenty of nationalised children's services asking for private donations like our local children's hospital and schools (if you're a parent!).

A lot of things in the UK are products of our history, a mixture of British compromise and muddling through rather than having a revolutionary clean sweep of our institutions and traditions, it's part of our national character and all the better for it imo.