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FALSE

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XFool
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FALSE

#612170

Postby XFool » August 30th, 2023, 2:30 pm

I have received this PM. I post it here because it is a false accusation. It completely falsely misrepresents what I posted and I want it publicly corrected.

Sent: August 30th, 2023, 2:05 pm
From: tjh290633
Recipient: XFool

Your post was deleted because you equated supporting Brexit and being a racist. A complaint was made which I considered justified. Therefore your post and subsequent post have been deleted. Any more and those posts will be deleted.

TJH

Clariman
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Re: FALSE

#612183

Postby Clariman » August 30th, 2023, 4:14 pm

I will take a look at it.

XFool
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Re: FALSE

#612184

Postby XFool » August 30th, 2023, 4:25 pm

Clariman wrote:I will take a look at it.

Thanks.

A small point: I should have pointed out that the PM above is as received by me, apart from the underlining, which was added by myself for emphasis. Because that is the central accusation in the PM, as well as the falsity.

Clariman
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Re: FALSE

#612192

Postby Clariman » August 30th, 2023, 4:50 pm

Xfool,

I am happy to give you the opportunity to explain what your post meant, so that we can better understand if and how you broke the site rules.

Firstly, let me provide the full text of your deleted post:

XFool wrote:I'm starting to wonder if the same thing may apply here as applied to the relationship between being a racist and voting for Brexit:

"Voting for Brexit doesn't mean you are a fool, but show me a fool and I'll show you someone who voted for Brexit." :)


This was in response to another posting saying:

Anyway, this tangent started out because there was a rehash of the tired old "Remainers are smarter than Leavers" line.


The reporter and the moderator interpreted your words as equating Brexit support with racism. Indeed, you wrote about, "the relationship between being a racist and voting for Brexit". What did you mean by that? Do you hold that view?

Also what did you mean by the words in quotation marks, "Voting for Brexit doesn't mean you are a fool, but show me a fool and I'll show you someone who voted for Brexit", which seems to equate fools with voting for Brexit. Either of these views is being disrespectful of others unless you can convince us otherwise. There may be a genuine misunderstanding. For example were you quoting other people?

Clariman

XFool
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Re: FALSE

#612199

Postby XFool » August 30th, 2023, 5:25 pm

Clariman wrote:Xfool,

I am happy to give you the opportunity to explain what your post meant, so that we can better understand if and how you broke the site rules.

Firstly, let me provide the full text of your deleted post:

XFool wrote:I'm starting to wonder if the same thing may apply here as applied to the relationship between being a racist and voting for Brexit:

"Voting for Brexit doesn't mean you are a fool, but show me a fool and I'll show you someone who voted for Brexit." :)

This was in response to another posting saying:

Anyway, this tangent started out because there was a rehash of the tired old "Remainers are smarter than Leavers" line.

Yes, indeed it was. You will, possibly, notice the smiley at the end of my post in quotes, above. Attempting humour in a post to a TLF board - big mistake! You'd think I'd have learned by now, wouldn't you? :|

Clariman wrote:The reporter and the moderator interpreted your words as equating Brexit support with racism. Indeed, you wrote about, "the relationship between being a racist and voting for Brexit". What did you mean by that? Do you hold that view?

Quite so. Whereas two things:

1. My deleted post was actually about the connection (whatever it may be) between voting for Brexit and being a fool. (Not a racist)

But note, it referred to a similar style of post about the connection (whatever it may be) between voting for Brexit and being a racist.
This topic was often touched on/discussed at the time of the Brexit debate. Yes, even on TLF.

2. Whether referring to a fool of a racist, my post explicitly pointed out that voting for Brexit DID NOT mean you were either. But, given somebody who was a fool, IMO likely THEY would have voted for Brexit.

Neither of the above (obviously) equates voting for Brexit with being a fool, or a racist. This point seems obvious to me.

Clariman wrote:Also what did you mean by the words in quotation marks, "Voting for Brexit doesn't mean you are a fool, but show me a fool and I'll show you someone who voted for Brexit", which seems to equate fools with voting for Brexit.

The meaning seems self evident to me.

That B implies A, does not necessarily, or in all cases mean, A necessarily implies B. That is the whole point I was making. The reporter (and your moderator) seem to want to torture that into: if A implies B then B MUST imply A in every case; That is A = B. Which is false and is (obviously) not what I either meant or wrote.

(BTW - For the interested: Therein lies the joke. If you do have a sense of humour...)

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Re: FALSE

#612200

Postby GrahamPlatt » August 30th, 2023, 5:29 pm

Have to put in my 2p here - logically, xFool is correct.

JohnB
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Re: FALSE

#612212

Postby JohnB » August 30th, 2023, 6:37 pm

If you don't allow such comments, you really need to close the Current Affairs/Politics forum entirely.

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Re: FALSE

#612213

Postby Lootman » August 30th, 2023, 6:50 pm

JohnB wrote:If you don't allow such comments, you really need to close the Current Affairs/Politics forum entirely.

Conversely if people are allowed to post on CAN that voting a certain way connotes being a fool or a racist or any other negative attribution, then CAN has ceased to be a place for civil rational debate and instead just becomes a slanging match. And I would prefer CAN to be shut down rather than see that.

And this is not about Boolean, Symbolic or Aristotelian logic. It is about combining a political preference with an offensive characterisation and hoping to get away with it.

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Re: FALSE

#612222

Postby GrahamPlatt » August 30th, 2023, 8:40 pm

Lootman wrote:
JohnB wrote:If you don't allow such comments, you really need to close the Current Affairs/Politics forum entirely.

Conversely if people are allowed to post on CAN that voting a certain way connotes being a fool or a racist or any other negative attribution, then CAN has ceased to be a place for civil rational debate and instead just becomes a slanging match. And I would prefer CAN to be shut down rather than see that.

And this is not about Boolean, Symbolic or Aristotelian logic. It is about combining a political preference with an offensive characterisation and hoping to get away with it.



So you think X (xTwitter) should be shut down?

mc2fool
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Re: FALSE

#612225

Postby mc2fool » August 30th, 2023, 8:56 pm

Lootman wrote:
JohnB wrote:If you don't allow such comments, you really need to close the Current Affairs/Politics forum entirely.

Conversely if people are allowed to post on CAN that voting a certain way connotes being a fool or a racist or any other negative attribution, then CAN has ceased to be a place for civil rational debate and instead just becomes a slanging match. And I would prefer CAN to be shut down rather than see that.

And this is not about Boolean, Symbolic or Aristotelian logic. It is about combining a political preference with an offensive characterisation and hoping to get away with it.

Indeed, the structure of the statements and post-explanations, not to mention trying to dismiss it all as humour, are just sophistry to try and get away with lobbing about thinly veiled insults and demeaning stereotypes. What's the intent in conflating those words in the same sentences otherwise?

We really should be able to do better than that.

GrahamPlatt wrote:So you think X (xTwitter) should be shut down?

X/Twitter is irrelevant to this, we're talking about how we'd like fellow Lemons to interact on TLF, not X/Twitter, and I really really hope that X/Twitter isn't the standard we're measuring ourselves against!

richfool
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Re: FALSE

#612228

Postby richfool » August 30th, 2023, 9:16 pm

but show me a fool and I'll show you someone who voted for Brexit."

For info, I would find that insulting, if not offensive.

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Re: FALSE

#612230

Postby CliffEdge » August 30th, 2023, 9:21 pm

Yes some people who ate boiled eggs for breakfast will be remainers but not all remainers will have eaten boiled eggs.
However, to be regarded as someone who eats boiled eggs isn't generally considered insulting by the majority of the population. That day will come, I have no doubt, but that's a matter for the future.

Urbandreamer
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Re: FALSE

#612232

Postby Urbandreamer » August 30th, 2023, 9:41 pm

FWIW, can I put in my support for Xfool on this issue.

Sure I am actually convinced that he enjoys trolling, but that isn't the issue here.

For example "but show me a fool and I'll show you someone who voted for Brexit".

Some of the Brexit camp ARE Xenophobes, which is remarkably different for racists.

Brexit HAS happened, So arguments about it are no longer valid.

Now I do happen to think that Lies WERE told. But that the public knew that they were lies. Even people who claimed to believe those statements, may have decided to believe, because it supported the aim.

Arguably this would make them a fool. Not because they wanted Brexit, but because they were lying to themselves.

Yes I knew people that I still respect who did this. They had a silver cord of sovereignty, that allowed themselves to even ignore the concept that others in Germany or France could have their own interests... FOOLS!

The Issue is that TLF can't support racism or those who see it everywhere. So it is the WORD that is the problem. Had Xfool used Xenophobe, would the post have been deleted?

Ps, re boiled eggs. You do know the only way to eat them is with the bottom (big bit) at the top. See the author J Swift.

Clariman
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Re: FALSE

#612234

Postby Clariman » August 30th, 2023, 9:45 pm

Moderator Message:
The OP has had the opportunity to express their unhappiness with the decision and to explain their comments. The explanation has satisfied some but not others. That is the nature of discussion boards so let's leave it at that.


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