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Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

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dealtn
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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#270095

Postby dealtn » December 9th, 2019, 2:14 pm

It's possible the near total doom and gloom amongst the broker and investment analyst community might be passing. JP Morgan on Friday, and Goldman Sachs today have upgraded their ratings on the stock. The former from Underweight to Neutral, the latter from Sell to Buy, with price targets of 200p and 220p respectively.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#270405

Postby Bouleversee » December 10th, 2019, 2:36 pm

I should be delighted to be proved wrong in my estimate of future progress. If there are enough people who like cheap and nasty I should be able to buy some good quality items elsewhere. I'll look at their website in a few months' time and see whether there is any sign of improvement.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#270619

Postby dealtn » December 12th, 2019, 3:28 pm

(And whilst we were out...)

The Broker Forecasts continue to come out. Jefferies maintain their "Hold" rating but RBC Capital Markets also upgrade from "Perform" to "Outperform".

I'm not normally one to pay too much heed to the Broker community, but given the near universal pessimism on MKS it is interesting to see the momentum changing. It is possible the company itself has given a (legal) steer here, but I would be suspicious that would be the case ahead of the all too crucial Christmas period.

Were positive momentum to continue in the share price it is possible we get into the self-fulfilling territory of shares on the cusp of moving between indices. On the way down MKS fulfilled the expectation of dropping out of the FT-SE 100, and the necessary adjustment selling by some institutions as a result. A move the other way would also trigger an amount of forced buying by institutions unable to purchase at a lower price, whilst outside of the top Index. Too late for December but a possibility for March.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#270636

Postby Arborbridge » December 12th, 2019, 5:26 pm

OLTB wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:
Dod, I've never heard of Johnson's of Elgin but will have a look at their website. However, not all the expensive ones are good. My daughter bought me what I thought was an expensive jumper from Pure and it pilled after 3 wearings, not having even been washed.


OT, but £115 for a hot water bottle :shock:

https://www.johnstonsofelgin.com/retail ... ttles.html

I hope it massages my feet as well as keeps them warm.

Cheers, OLTB.


I've just followed the linked and it does rather explain the problem. Dod reckons these products are high quality - and I believe him. On the other hand, the squeezed middle could never afford Marks if it tried to emulate the same quality, so we belly ache because the quality is poor, but don't want to pay up for the quality we imagine we are entitled to.

As regards Johnson's of Elgin, I looked at the men's products and they seem particularly uninspiring. I see in the ladies section some nice coats, but there's no way my wife would pay a couple of thousand for a coat. I imagine one could keep these things for decades, by which time one would be heartily fed up with them!

I find the difficulty with middle of the road clothing (such as Marks sell) is that they don't remain looking good for very long, but neither do they wear out quickly so one can justify replacing them. There's a long tail of time in which they look only-just-about presentable.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276087

Postby idpickering » January 9th, 2020, 7:09 am

3rd Quarter Trading Statement

Highlights

· Trading reflects ongoing progress of transformation strategy

· UK like-for-like revenue slightly up, driven by improved quarter in both main businesses

· Food business maintains momentum of H1 with positive like-for-like revenue and further improvement in volumes, with standout performance in the 2-week Christmas period as customers responded to sharper value and more relevant innovation

· Clothing & Home improved run rate from H1 reflecting strong initial customer reception of Autumn ranges with signs of continuing recovery in core Womenswear, offset by underperformance in Menswear and Gifting

· Decisive actions to drive trade in-season including improved availability, a reduction in options and improving value helped reduce the value of stock into sale by 12%

· Full year guidance unchanged, although gross margins expected to be around lower end of guidance, largely offset by cost reduction programme


https://www.investegate.co.uk/marks---3 ... 00062174Z/

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276100

Postby idpickering » January 9th, 2020, 8:05 am

The above hasn’t gone down well it seems, with the sp down 5% on market opening. I used to hold these years ago, and I’m mighty glad I don’t now.

Ian.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276114

Postby Dod101 » January 9th, 2020, 9:42 am

Arborbridge wrote:I've just followed the linked and it does rather explain the problem. Dod reckons these products are high quality - and I believe him. On the other hand, the squeezed middle could never afford Marks if it tried to emulate the same quality, so we belly ache because the quality is poor, but don't want to pay up for the quality we imagine we are entitled to.

As regards Johnson's of Elgin, I looked at the men's products and they seem particularly uninspiring. I see in the ladies section some nice coats, but there's no way my wife would pay a couple of thousand for a coat. I imagine one could keep these things for decades, by which time one would be heartily fed up with them!


Picking this up again. I agree that Johnson's models on their website look unrealistic and their prices are a bit OTT but I have four cashmere sweaters which I have worn for the past decade or so from Johnsons which I bought on the advice of my wife in a sale. They are sadly wearing out now in fact were my dear wife around she would most likely have dumped them buy now. But they have not 'balled', they still keep their shape and still do the job of keeping me warm. If you are used to this sort of thing it is difficult to go back to anything else. I have not bought from M & S for a very long time although I do buy their food and even that not as much as I used to. But the quality is invariably good.

But it comes back again to culture. They have in my relatively local ageing shop assistants, ageing customers and rather uninspiring stock.

Dod

Moderator Message:
Faulty quote fixed -- MDW1954

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276167

Postby Arborbridge » January 9th, 2020, 12:40 pm

Dod101 wrote:But it comes back again to culture. They have in my relatively local ageing shop assistants, ageing customers and rather uninspiring stock.

Dod

Moderator Message:
Faulty quote fixed -- MDW1954


As I sit here typing, I realise my shirt, trousers, underpants, socks and slippers all came from Marks. I must be their perfect target - aging and rather uninspiring :)

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276170

Postby Dod101 » January 9th, 2020, 12:47 pm

Oh dear. I do not mean to be disparaging and my apologies to you Arb. There are always exceptions!

Dod

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276178

Postby seagles » January 9th, 2020, 1:36 pm

Arborbridge wrote:As I sit here typing, I realise my shirt, trousers, underpants, socks and slippers all came from Marks. I must be their perfect target - aging and rather uninspiring :)


Blimey, I saw this and checked, Polo shirt, jeans, socks, underwear all M&S. Slippers saved me though. That's it off to NEXT... hang on due some vouchers shortly, so maybe not.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276183

Postby Bouleversee » January 9th, 2020, 2:14 pm

How about your pyjamas and sweaters and where do your wives get their clothes? Unless they have improved very recently, I wouldn't get any of those from M&S these days. I wouldn't say they are catering for older and more affluent and discriminating clientele.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276185

Postby dealtn » January 9th, 2020, 2:24 pm

Bit of an odd one this, clearly something isn't liked by the market but it's not obvious what it is. On the food front they have clearly had a better time than the likes of Tesco and Sainsbury's, neither of which have seen a 10% tumble in price.

Trading statements like this are notoriously thin on detail, and it's entirely possible the round of investor briefings when a company of this size reports have revealed a little more than private investors have access to.

My investment case here is based on cash flow, and there is nothing obvious here to dispel it, but time will tell. I will have to wait for more information I suppose, but ultimately management will be judged to be successful here when they change the culture and momentum sufficiently that people are focussing on its (new) future, rather than harking back to its (successful) past. Unlike previously, based on today's share price reaction, I can't see this re-entering the FTSE-100 on the next shake up.

I am still (just) up on my entry point, but now broadly in line with the market, rather than outperforming. Considering whether to add.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276204

Postby Arborbridge » January 9th, 2020, 4:02 pm

seagles wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:As I sit here typing, I realise my shirt, trousers, underpants, socks and slippers all came from Marks. I must be their perfect target - aging and rather uninspiring :)


Blimey, I saw this and checked, Polo shirt, jeans, socks, underwear all M&S. Slippers saved me though. That's it off to NEXT... hang on due some vouchers shortly, so maybe not.


I've tried Next for a change and I've found nothing there that is any more inspiring. Dark and dull. And they are usually cut for some sort of alien shape which is different to mine.

Arb

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276205

Postby Arborbridge » January 9th, 2020, 4:04 pm

Dod101 wrote:Oh dear. I do not mean to be disparaging and my apologies to you Arb. There are always exceptions!

Dod



It wasn't disparaging, don't worry. 8-)

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276207

Postby Arborbridge » January 9th, 2020, 4:12 pm

Bouleversee wrote:How about your pyjamas and sweaters and where do your wives get their clothes? Unless they have improved very recently, I wouldn't get any of those from M&S these days. I wouldn't say they are catering for older and more affluent and discriminating clientele.


I would agree with that last sentence.

I don't wear heavy sweaters - fleeces. Ssome Marks marino thinner ones occasionally as an extra layer under a suit jacket if its cold. Suits, of course, from Marks and both altered to fit by their tailoring service. Shirts under suit - recently purchased floral or silver pattern of stars. They have a "New improved fit" in shirts which is a total disaster on me, so avoid at all costs until they show they have corrected the problem. When I returned them, they had already had several back for the same reason.

Shoes - never from Marks.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276215

Postby idpickering » January 9th, 2020, 4:52 pm

For what it's worth, none of my clothes are from MKS.
Furthermore, the 11% downfall in the sp today doesn't tempt me either. Is anyone here tempted to buy?

Ian.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276236

Postby tjh290633 » January 9th, 2020, 5:57 pm

I reckon that a lot of knees jerked today. Sit tight and do nothing.

TJH

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276318

Postby Nimrod103 » January 10th, 2020, 7:24 am

Arborbridge wrote:
seagles wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:As I sit here typing, I realise my shirt, trousers, underpants, socks and slippers all came from Marks. I must be their perfect target - aging and rather uninspiring :)


Blimey, I saw this and checked, Polo shirt, jeans, socks, underwear all M&S. Slippers saved me though. That's it off to NEXT... hang on due some vouchers shortly, so maybe not.


I've tried Next for a change and I've found nothing there that is any more inspiring. Dark and dull. And they are usually cut for some sort of alien shape which is different to mine.

Arb


Just before Xmas, we ventured into M&S in Norwich, as my wife was looking for some particular item of some particular colour which I cannot now recall. While she looked, I spent my time in the gents department, and noticed there seemed a lot of grey. For my amusement, I counted 36 different styles of grey jumper/pullover.
Next only had 18 different grey designs.
Frankly I don't find M&S at all interesting now. The colours are mainly drab, the jumpers are far too short, and the trousers are cut too tight. Currently I have only a couple of M&S vests in my cupboard.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276332

Postby Arborbridge » January 10th, 2020, 8:52 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
Just before Xmas, we ventured into M&S in Norwich, as my wife was looking for some particular item of some particular colour which I cannot now recall. While she looked, I spent my time in the gents department, and noticed there seemed a lot of grey. For my amusement, I counted 36 different styles of grey jumper/pullover.
Next only had 18 different grey designs.
Frankly I don't find M&S at all interesting now. The colours are mainly drab, the jumpers are far too short, and the trousers are cut too tight. Currently I have only a couple of M&S vests in my cupboard.


Sounds like Next are even more drab with only 18 different grey on offer!

Seriously, I can remember last time Marks came under the kosh, everyone complaining about the uniformly black and grey colours. I thought I would try Next, and it was exactly the same, so why were people picking out Marks for complaint and not Next? Beats me.

I think your story illustrates Marks problem, though. They are trying to court younger people, but in danger of alienating older people who do not like tight or skimpy clothing. As regards colour: walk down any high street and look at what people wear, and presumably want to wear: black, grey, dull. It's how we are as a nation, perhaps.

Arb.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Group PLC (MKS)

#276338

Postby stevensfo » January 10th, 2020, 9:23 am

Arborbridge wrote:
OLTB wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:
Dod, I've never heard of Johnson's of Elgin but will have a look at their website. However, not all the expensive ones are good. My daughter bought me what I thought was an expensive jumper from Pure and it pilled after 3 wearings, not having even been washed.


OT, but £115 for a hot water bottle :shock:

https://www.johnstonsofelgin.com/retail ... ttles.html

I hope it massages my feet as well as keeps them warm.

Cheers, OLTB.


I've just followed the linked and it does rather explain the problem. Dod reckons these products are high quality - and I believe him. On the other hand, the squeezed middle could never afford Marks if it tried to emulate the same quality, so we belly ache because the quality is poor, but don't want to pay up for the quality we imagine we are entitled to.

As regards Johnson's of Elgin, I looked at the men's products and they seem particularly uninspiring. I see in the ladies section some nice coats, but there's no way my wife would pay a couple of thousand for a coat. I imagine one could keep these things for decades, by which time one would be heartily fed up with them!

I find the difficulty with middle of the road clothing (such as Marks sell) is that they don't remain looking good for very long, but neither do they wear out quickly so one can justify replacing them. There's a long tail of time in which they look only-just-about presentable.


Using a cashmere cover for a hot water bottle seems to me to be completely OTT. I mean, why?

Although trying to be a LBYM person, I've always had a weakness for expensive lambswool and cashmere jumpers, but the prices in that website are absurd!


Steve


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