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Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

Family, children, advice, schooling, finance for children, all things kids.

Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

1. Yes
25
43%
2. No
26
45%
3. Something else/other
7
12%
 
Total votes: 58

dealtn
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351019

Postby dealtn » October 27th, 2020, 11:53 am

Arborbridge wrote:
The gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever before and has increased during the pandemic.



You have made this point before but I'm not sure its true. Gini is the best way to look at this and both as an international comparison, and historical comparison this doesn't hold.

Arborbridge
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351028

Postby Arborbridge » October 27th, 2020, 12:14 pm

dealtn wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
The gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever before and has increased during the pandemic.



You have made this point before but I'm not sure its true. Gini is the best way to look at this and both as an international comparison, and historical comparison this doesn't hold.


I expect there are differing ways of measuring this and so much depends on who and what is included.
No doubt it one of those areas where people can choose the study which supports their POV. It would be a good case for More or Less to look into.

Arb.

dealtn
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351041

Postby dealtn » October 27th, 2020, 12:50 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
dealtn wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
The gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever before and has increased during the pandemic.



You have made this point before but I'm not sure its true. Gini is the best way to look at this and both as an international comparison, and historical comparison this doesn't hold.


I expect there are differing ways of measuring this and so much depends on who and what is included.
No doubt it one of those areas where people can choose the study which supports their POV. It would be a good case for More or Less to look into.

Arb.


Agreed, however I think Gini is academically considered appropriate, and used extensively. Statements such as "bigger than ever" are strong claims and more soundbite than substance when analysed statistically. That's not to say that poverty, be that absolute or relative, isn't an issue, or that subjects such as meals for the poor/hungry aren't worthy discussions, just that proper debate should use real data and science, not emotion as its core.

Arborbridge
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351044

Postby Arborbridge » October 27th, 2020, 12:57 pm

dealtn wrote:
Agreed, however I think Gini is academically considered appropriate, and used extensively. Statements such as "bigger than ever" are strong claims and more soundbite than substance when analysed statistically. That's not to say that poverty, be that absolute or relative, isn't an issue, or that subjects such as meals for the poor/hungry aren't worthy discussions, just that proper debate should use real data and science, not emotion as its core.


I have to agree, especially being one whose life has been directed by science and technology.

However, human emotion is often the driver to discovering more and in making changes in the world.
Even scientists form a view then set out to see if the facts confirm it: it's the obsessives who quite often make progress as well as the run of the mill patient researchers.

Arb.

anniesdad
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351240

Postby anniesdad » October 28th, 2020, 8:31 am

It’s been mentioned that everyone should want to help hungry children. And I’m sure that is the case with all of us including the No voters. However there is already a wealth of benefits in place to ensure this some very very complicated.

The problem is that this ‘help’ being given doesn’t actually make it through to the hungry child. But it does make a middle class do guider or millionaire footballer feel good especially now when they can virtue signal to everyone.

A bit like Bob Geldorf’s food aid for Africa actually prolonging the conflict and the starvation. It was well intentioned and it made people feel good to contribute but it wasn’t very helpful.

Arborbridge
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351246

Postby Arborbridge » October 28th, 2020, 9:03 am

anniesdad wrote:It’s been mentioned that everyone should want to help hungry children. And I’m sure that is the case with all of us including the No voters. However there is already a wealth of benefits in place to ensure this some very very complicated.

The problem is that this ‘help’ being given doesn’t actually make it through to the hungry child. But it does make a middle class do guider or millionaire footballer feel good especially now when they can virtue signal to everyone.

A bit like Bob Geldorf’s food aid for Africa actually prolonging the conflict and the starvation. It was well intentioned and it made people feel good to contribute but it wasn’t very helpful.


Maybe it was very helpful in a micro sense, but the problem was and is enormous. It's a structural one, way beyond the solving by an passing moment of fund raising. We have endemic poverty not owing to a lack of wealth, but a system which does not facilitate solving it. There is wealth in abundance in this country.

BTW, what isn't fair to my mind, is that when people try to raise the profile of the problem or attempt to get off their backsides and do something, another set of cynics complains of virtue signalling or do gooding. That's what I would characterise as not helpful. I believe that Rashford's motivation is simple humanity - even if it isn't, he is making a positive move to stimulate a debate with a government which does not seem particularly moved to help this section of the community.

That the rich and famous use their wealth and celebrity to raise profiles or support the arts or community activities is to be applauded, not denigrated. But we will always have to contend with cynics: those who can, do, those who can't, criticise.

Arb.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351276

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » October 28th, 2020, 10:56 am

I think the UK is ranked 5th or 6th wealthiest nation in the world. I know when I read some of the statistics out there that me and my small family are in a minority. It's a minority of people who earn over a stated amount. Not only do I remind myself that I am fortunate not to have to worry about paying the heating bills or the electric but I also make sure to explain this to our daughter.

When we educate children we give them an opportunity to find work that is gainful. When they are at school and hungry some will find it difficult to concentrate and to make the most of that opportunity.

In 2014 I had a six week job to walk around an estate in Grimsby. All I had to do was measure fencing and paving. I can't recall how much I was paid per day. If I recall correctly it was £300/ish. That was probably more than most living on the estate got in a week. It was beautiful weather and chance to be out in it whilst waiting for the next contract.

What I witnessed over those 6 weeks was social deprivation, hopelessness and generally a community struggling to be proud of itself. Many houses were empty and boarded up. Some back gardens were just full of rubbish like old fridges, cookers and the like. I didn't see many needles. As a best guess I'd say one in three of the homes were either in disrepair or run down to a point where I would describe them as derelict.

I couldn't wear trousers as some gardens were so overgrown and full of dog excrement that I often had to arrive home and wash them for the next day. So an old pair of jeans it was. There were also some well kempt homes and many individuals were retired and living with the support of house care visits. There was clearly some huge social divides on the estate. Police cars were prevalent.

The estate is called the Nunsthorpe Estate. It has a long history stretching back to the 1920's I think.

Obviously the area functions at some level and is home to some lovely people. But it clearly lacks some investment. Grimsby like Hull was once home to a thriving fishing fleet. During the mid 70's and early 80's those fleets disappeared and the work with them. In the last decade Hull has seen some reversal of that decline as Siemens have moved in and are making sails for wind turbines.

I can't imagine that Nunsthorpe is the only estate in the UK that displays deep poverty. And this in a nation ranked amongst the worlds richest. Somethings not right.

I can't imagine for one minute that Rashford's campaign will change deep routed social deprivation overnight. But it's a positive gesture and one I respect.

AiY

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351286

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » October 28th, 2020, 11:11 am

dealtn wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
The gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever before and has increased during the pandemic.



You have made this point before but I'm not sure its true. Gini is the best way to look at this and both as an international comparison, and historical comparison this doesn't hold.

Quite complicated but nevertheless some information can be found in this document

AiY

dealtn
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351287

Postby dealtn » October 28th, 2020, 11:21 am

Arborbridge wrote:BTW, what isn't fair to my mind, is that when people try to raise the profile of the problem or attempt to get off their backsides and do something, another set of cynics complains of virtue signalling or do gooding. That's what I would characterise as not helpful. I believe that Rashford's motivation is simple humanity - even if it isn't, he is making a positive move to stimulate a debate with a government which does not seem particularly moved to help this section of the community.



I'm not sure that's particularly helpful either. It may be that the Government isn't doing what you think they should, or enough generally, but stating "don't seem particularly moved" probably does an injustice when they are providing some funds to Local Authorities, and have been providing free school meals over the most recent school holidays, which weren't available pre-Covid. Whilst it is the government you are directing your ire at, which is maybe understandable, there are plenty of politicians (and of all party colours) that genuinely have concern about the poorest in our society and one of the reasons they are in the positions they are is because they want to do something about it.

anniesdad
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351633

Postby anniesdad » October 29th, 2020, 10:40 am

That the rich and famous use their wealth and celebrity to raise profiles or support the arts or community activities is to be applauded, not denigrated. But we will always have to contend with cynics: those who can, do, those who can't, criticise.

Arb, it’s great that a discussion has been started by Rashford. What’s not helpful is that is doesn’t seem to be very open and it seems too aggressive. Ie .... This is the only way we can fix this problem and I’ve got a louder voice than you and I’m just going to rail road it through blah blah . .... The reason we won’t do it is because selfish tories blah blah blah. I think both sides to blame fir being too aggressive. However I also think the government has done a lot to deal with poverty, they’re paying out billions in furlough extra benefits etc. The welfare state, tax credits, universal credit etc is already in place to deal with this so let’s make that work. Others have talked about helplessness in these struggling families. Not sure this is fixed by chucking even more and more free handouts to them. There may be a better way if we discuss it without denigrating each other. Rashford and co would get more respect if he was to look at the problem with a more open mind. Pious millionaires complaining about poverty whilst earning obscene wages and then telling me what to do with my money is always going to be a struggle for me.

NeilW
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351708

Postby NeilW » October 29th, 2020, 1:27 pm

Some wag did point out that if the Premiership footballers donated 1% of their week's wages to charity they would have more than enough to provide Free School Meals to all the kids.

And they'd get tax relief into the bargain.

Arborbridge
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351880

Postby Arborbridge » October 30th, 2020, 7:18 am

anniesdad wrote:That the rich and famous use their wealth and celebrity to raise profiles or support the arts or community activities is to be applauded, not denigrated. But we will always have to contend with cynics: those who can, do, those who can't, criticise.

Arb, it’s great that a discussion has been started by Rashford. What’s not helpful is that is doesn’t seem to be very open and it seems too aggressive. Ie .... This is the only way we can fix this problem and I’ve got a louder voice than you and I’m just going to rail road it through blah blah . .... The reason we won’t do it is because selfish tories blah blah blah. I think both sides to blame fir being too aggressive. However I also think the government has done a lot to deal with poverty, they’re paying out billions in furlough extra benefits etc. The welfare state, tax credits, universal credit etc is already in place to deal with this so let’s make that work. Others have talked about helplessness in these struggling families. Not sure this is fixed by chucking even more and more free handouts to them. There may be a better way if we discuss it without denigrating each other. Rashford and co would get more respect if he was to look at the problem with a more open mind. Pious millionaires complaining about poverty whilst earning obscene wages and then telling me what to do with my money is always going to be a struggle for me.


Unfortunately, debate in this country is endemically polarised - it probably always has been but Brexit made the fact much more obvious, helped by social media in which every paper tiger can have their say and be as aggressive as they like. Look at us! Fifteen years ago, we couldn't have these discussions - moreover with virtual anonymity - one would have to go to the effordt of going to a physical meeting, write to a newspaper, or somesuch.
And you continue the critical theme by saying Rashford has a closed mind: each of us judges from their particular POV and experience, and that's all he has done. Actually, probably not a bad idea that someone has put that perspective: the discussion needed some weight from that direction as those currently in charge are not giving it. Rashford has obscene wages but is speaking up with empathy, since he had a poor upbringing for which football provided a way out: I rate that as being better than being obscenely rich and not speaking out.
In place of scorn, we should listen to what he has to say.

Arb.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351955

Postby swill453 » October 30th, 2020, 12:15 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Look at us! Fifteen years ago, we couldn't have these discussions - moreover with virtual anonymity - one would have to go to the effordt of going to a physical meeting, write to a newspaper, or somesuch.

Hardly 15 years. The Motley Fool boards were around 22 or so years ago. Usenet newsgroups predated that by some way too.

Scott.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#354547

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » November 8th, 2020, 1:01 pm

Marcus Rashford: PM climbdown over free meals in school holidays
The government is to spend more than £400m to support poor children and their families in England, following a campaign by footballer Marcus Rashford.

AiY


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