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Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

Family, children, advice, schooling, finance for children, all things kids.

Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

1. Yes
27
42%
2. No
29
45%
3. Something else/other
8
13%
 
Total votes: 64

Mike4
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350637

Postby Mike4 » October 26th, 2020, 7:57 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Mike88 wrote:The cynic in me thinks that free school meals frees up more money for scratch cards, cigarettes and booze. Are children really going hungry through lack of money or is it because parents are unable to budget choosing to spend benefit money on other things? Is it really the government's responsibility to feed children or is it the parents?


I don't remember such questions being asked - particularly not amongst the wealthy denizens of TLF - when we had "eat out to help out" which largely helped the middle classes who had money to spend.
We haven't raised all these pseudo moral issues during other financial interventions with the exception of disagreements here concerning Tesco paying its dividend.

If we can afford to give a subsidy to the middle classes and plough billions into businesses, why can't we raise a relatively small sum to help in what is clearly an urgent and real need? Not only that, I see it as just as valid way of stimulating the economy as these other interventions. The only difference is that we are helping the poor instead of the middle classes - but it's still benefitting everyone in the economy, particularly those in low paid jobs in the catering industry who are also struggling. In that sense, it is a no brainer - there are so many winners, yes: even the moaning middle benefit indirectly.

People who object do seem to be on the wrong side of the argument, and letting their class prejudice show.

PS Mike88 this not all aimed at you, but your post just sparked a series of thoughts :)

Arb.


I thought "Eat Out To Help Out" was aimed at saving the economy rather than it being because middle class folk needed subsidising so they could afford to eat at all.

I have not followed the debate at all but i think those objecting fear the extra money will just get spent on more booze and fags by feckless parents and the kids will still go hungry. Or is the proposal that money should be found to keep the school dinner kitchens open through the holidays, rather than giving more cash to the parents?

Do schools actually still actually have staffed kitchens and dining rooms?

Arborbridge
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350645

Postby Arborbridge » October 26th, 2020, 8:28 am

Mike4 wrote:I thought "Eat Out To Help Out" was aimed at saving the economy rather than it being because middle class folk needed subsidising so they could afford to eat at all.

I have not followed the debate at all but i think those objecting fear the extra money will just get spent on more booze and fags by feckless parents and the kids will still go hungry. Or is the proposal that money should be found to keep the school dinner kitchens open through the holidays, rather than giving more cash to the parents?

Do schools actually still actually have staffed kitchens and dining rooms?


The aim was certainly to help the hospitality industry, but it has also been pointed out that it effectively subsidised the middle classes who did not need the subsidy - and I don't rememeber anyone objecting on fears that this subsidy would be spent on booze and fags, or that those people benefittingwere "feckless". To use that argument specifically for the poorer members of society, which this help would benefit is revealing a prejudice which did not operate in the former example of eating out.

My point is that all these intervention help the economy: this one probably helps the needier end of the economy (poor folk with the meals and caterers and associated people), but I reckon that is a good thing rather than a bad one. It is probably better targetted too: considering that millions of pounds of earlier subsidies are reported to have ended up in the hands of those already wealthy or as part of criminal gangs.

If some are feckless in the way you fear, I would say it's a very small side issue, and would have been an objection in the case of Eat Out too. Why give someone a subsidy for Eat Out when there's a risk it will be frittered away on booze and fags?

I just don't see any objection to helping the poorest members of society when it is going to cost so little to do so. As I said before, it's a no-brainer.

Politically (not that I care about that, but MPs and the PM will) it wouldn't do the Tories any harm, and not to do so would do a great deal of harm, in my view, to Johnson's already tarnished image - especially in the constituencies which switched to Tory last time.

Arb.

Mike88
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350648

Postby Mike88 » October 26th, 2020, 8:45 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Mike88 wrote:The cynic in me thinks that free school meals frees up more money for scratch cards, cigarettes and booze. Are children really going hungry through lack of money or is it because parents are unable to budget choosing to spend benefit money on other things? Is it really the government's responsibility to feed children or is it the parents?


I don't remember such questions being asked - particularly not amongst the wealthy denizens of TLF - when we had "eat out to help out" which largely helped the middle classes who had money to spend.
We haven't raised all these pseudo moral issues during other financial interventions with the exception of disagreements here concerning Tesco paying its dividend.

If we can afford to give a subsidy to the middle classes and plough billions into businesses, why can't we raise a relatively small sum to help in what is clearly an urgent and real need? Not only that, I see it as just as valid way of stimulating the economy as these other interventions. The only difference is that we are helping the poor instead of the middle classes - but it's still benefitting everyone in the economy, particularly those in low paid jobs in the catering industry who are also struggling. In that sense, it is a no brainer - there are so many winners, yes: even the moaning middle benefit indirectly.

People who object do seem to be on the wrong side of the argument, and letting their class prejudice show.

PS Mike88 this not all aimed at you, but your post just sparked a series of thoughts :)

Arb.


This argument, or a version of it, has been played out in my household for over 30 years. My wife is from a Council estate and, after leaving University in the early 1970's, became firstly a social worker and then a teacher in an area of social need. (She worked for the WHO in between as a researcher again dealing with deprived communities). Most of the residents were unemployed and happily chose to be living on Benefits as a lifestyle choice. My wife didn't blink an eye when parents brought their children to school, drunk in their pajamas or spent their Benefit money on booze, fags, scratchcards and top ups for their mobile phones. It was of no consequence to her that single mothers claimed not to live with their partners and gave separate parental addresses so that Benefit entitlement could be maximised or that they went home from the school gate to watch daytime TV on Sky. Her school was situated at the end of a cul de sac where the Police would not go to deal with the drug dealers that inhabited the neighbourhood. One thing that stood out to her was that the children were not neglected in the majority of cases and that was her major concern.

She is of the opinion that people should get what they can from the Benefit system. Where we differ is that I believe the Benefit system should be to provide the essentials in life - food, heating and housing. Where we agree is that no children should go hungry if parents budgeted responsibly. Her school even ran parents classes teaching parents how to budget and shop sensibly.

The mainly middle classes who are calling for free school meals for children during the holidays simply don't understand what is going on. Furthermore the government has already given local authorities further money partly for this purpose and even increased Universal credit. Should government offer free school meals during the school holidays - emphatically not in my opinion.

PS. This sort of thing has been going on for years. My wife took early retirement in 2003.

Arborbridge
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350673

Postby Arborbridge » October 26th, 2020, 10:10 am

Mike88 wrote:
The mainly middle classes who are calling for free school meals for children during the holidays simply don't understand what is going on. Furthermore the government has already given local authorities further money partly for this purpose and even increased Universal credit. Should government offer free school meals during the school holidays - emphatically not in my opinion.

PS. This sort of thing has been going on for years. My wife took early retirement in 2003.


I won't reply to the main arguments - as you say this type or discussion has been going back and forth for years, and will continue, without resolution.

Each to his own POV, I suspect.

Note the part I have put in bold. To a ordinary lay bloke, I've heard this sort of to and fro so often. Alice in Wonderland has nothing on it - one does not know, can never know, I suspect, where the truth lies. Government always says we've given sufficient money for x or y, local councils always respond that no they haven't.

This is another one which will be with us forever.

Arb.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350720

Postby didds » October 26th, 2020, 11:55 am

Gerry557 wrote:I remember things called parents, they had a responsibility to feed you.


and MAYBE they did. Quite comnforrtably,.

But times have changed quite dramatically and those that a year ago were compfortable may now actually be far from that with furloughs, redundancies etc etc.

didds

didds
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350721

Postby didds » October 26th, 2020, 11:59 am

All the rest aside etc ...

Whether they like it or not if the Govt is to accept a 3+K pay rise per MP (and yes I accept this is for ALL 650 MPs not just Govt party etc) then they have to reflect on how that LOOKS and is perceived while they are at the same time saying NO to FSM during school holidays.

didds

Arborbridge
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350730

Postby Arborbridge » October 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm

didds wrote:
Gerry557 wrote:I remember things called parents, they had a responsibility to feed you.


and MAYBE they did. Quite comnforrtably,.

But times have changed quite dramatically and those that a year ago were compfortable may now actually be far from that with furloughs, redundancies etc etc.

didds


I agree didds. Yes parents have a responsibility, but not necessarily the means - and anyone can fall on hard times through no fault of their own. It's happening more and more and even people with jobs now cannot earn enough to pay their way - and many of those are without children.

Those who "have" find is so easy to denigrate those who "have not", who have been less successful, or fell on hard times. Trite remarks such as "well, they shouldn't have three kids if they can't look after them" are so ignorant and callous. I had three kids, and a good career: I just got lucky, but that career could easily have folded. With a big mortgage or rent to pay, it does not take long to find oneself on skid row. Others haven't been so lucky. I know anecdotal from my family and my tenants how wretchedly hard it is to find jobs - several have found jobs only to have them crumble in weeks due to the current situation.

It's hard to appreciate what they are going through, and so easy to be holier than thou. People desparately need help, and the only people who can offer a hand are either us middle classes, or us via the tax system.

In a Britain which is incomparably richer than it was when I was a child, it is a disgrace that there is still child poverty and such an enormous (and increasing) gap in wealth between the top and the bottom.
I'm no socialist, in fact I am a dyed in the wool beneficiary of the capitalist system, but the way we play is, especially under a right leaning government, is simply not morally or economically sustainable. Victorian values were in some respects better than what we have now.

Arb.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350754

Postby dealtn » October 26th, 2020, 1:39 pm

Arborbridge wrote:In a Britain which is incomparably richer than it was when I was a child, it is a disgrace that there is still child poverty and such an enormous (and increasing) gap in wealth between the top and the bottom.


I'm not sure how correct this is though. The Gini Co-efficient of the UK is towards the middle when compared with what might be described as our peer group of comparable nations. I don't think it has moved unfavourably in any meaningful manner in the last few years, although it is probably too early to make a qualitative assessment on how Covid may, or may not, have affected this.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350759

Postby Mike88 » October 26th, 2020, 1:51 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
didds wrote:
Gerry557 wrote:I remember things called parents, they had a responsibility to feed you.


and MAYBE they did. Quite comnforrtably,.

But times have changed quite dramatically and those that a year ago were compfortable may now actually be far from that with furloughs, redundancies etc etc.

didds


I agree didds. Yes parents have a responsibility, but not necessarily the means - and anyone can fall on hard times through no fault of their own. It's happening more and more and even people with jobs now cannot earn enough to pay their way - and many of those are without children.

Those who "have" find is so easy to denigrate those who "have not", who have been less successful, or fell on hard times. Trite remarks such as "well, they shouldn't have three kids if they can't look after them" are so ignorant and callous. I had three kids, and a good career: I just got lucky, but that career could easily have folded. With a big mortgage or rent to pay, it does not take long to find oneself on skid row. Others haven't been so lucky. I know anecdotal from my family and my tenants how wretchedly hard it is to find jobs - several have found jobs only to have them crumble in weeks due to the current situation.

It's hard to appreciate what they are going through, and so easy to be holier than thou. People desparately need help, and the only people who can offer a hand are either us middle classes, or us via the tax system.

In a Britain which is incomparably richer than it was when I was a child, it is a disgrace that there is still child poverty and such an enormous (and increasing) gap in wealth between the top and the bottom.
I'm no socialist, in fact I am a dyed in the wool beneficiary of the capitalist system, but the way we play is, especially under a right leaning government, is simply not morally or economically sustainable. Victorian values were in some respects better than what we have now.

Arb.


Don't be taken in by the politicians who have seen an area of government vulnerability and are exploiting it to the full. Kate Green's quote about not letting a good crisis to go to waste springs to mind. Sadly some children have been hungry for years irrespective of the political party in power. A very small number of children have been going hungry for years due in part to the irresponsibility of the parents as I have previously mentioned based on hard evidence from my wife who worked supporting vulnerable families for over 30 years. Perhaps the best way around this is for the government to provide free school meals permanently with a corresponding reduction in Benefits. Then lets see how the Labour Party reacts.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350771

Postby Lootman » October 26th, 2020, 2:31 pm

dealtn wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:In a Britain which is incomparably richer than it was when I was a child, it is a disgrace that there is still child poverty and such an enormous (and increasing) gap in wealth between the top and the bottom.

I'm not sure how correct this is though. The Gini Co-efficient of the UK is towards the middle when compared with what might be described as our peer group of comparable nations. I don't think it has moved unfavourably in any meaningful manner in the last few years, although it is probably too early to make a qualitative assessment on how Covid may, or may not, have affected this.

The problem is that even discussing so-called "inequality" implies that it is a bad thing. And people often trot that out as if we all agree it is a bad thing. But it really depends on the reason why we are less equal.

For instance, prior to Thatcher it was quite hard for anyone in the UK to become rich. The tax rates were so high that the successful tended to leave the country (AKA "the brain drain") in order to build wealth and prosperity.

But now the UK has been more successful than most nations at creating millionaires and billionaires. It seems to me that is an unqualified good thing, creating wealth, success, jobs and opportunities. But then someone comes along and says "Ah but we are less equal than in 1975".

Well I remember 1975 and it wasn't much fun. I left Uni then, got a job paying not very much, and still paid a marginal rate of income tax at 35%. We may have been more equal, but we were all basically poor back then, and miserable. I'd rather take more inequality, and my chances at making it. And if I did become rich, I did not make anyone else poorer in the process.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350773

Postby didds » October 26th, 2020, 2:40 pm

[quote="Mike88"Perhaps the best way around this is for the government to provide free school meals permanently with a corresponding reduction in Benefits. [/quote]

I get the idea and even sympathise with it to some extent, but if currently its

£X benefits + £Y FSM, then making that £(X-Y) benefits + £Y FSM seems a bit of a double whammy ?

And if it were to work lets make sure the cost of FSM outside of term times is commensurate with the "charge" - whether its actually true or not Ive seen suggestions very recently that some £44 a week food boxes could be provisioned at Aldi for £19... so if the benefits were to be reduced by £44 for £19 worth of food that seems somewhat inequitable?

didds

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350778

Postby Mike88 » October 26th, 2020, 2:48 pm

didds wrote:[quote="Mike88"Perhaps the best way around this is for the government to provide free school meals permanently with a corresponding reduction in Benefits.


I get the idea and even sympathise with it to some extent, but if currently its

£X benefits + £Y FSM, then making that £(X-Y) benefits + £Y FSM seems a bit of a double whammy ?

And if it were to work lets make sure the cost of FSM outside of term times is commensurate with the "charge" - whether its actually true or not Ive seen suggestions very recently that some £44 a week food boxes could be provisioned at Aldi for £19... so if the benefits were to be reduced by £44 for £19 worth of food that seems somewhat inequitable?

didds[/quote]

The argument, or what I've understood, is that the requirement is for a hot meal and not food boxes.

didds
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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350783

Postby didds » October 26th, 2020, 3:23 pm

Mike88 wrote:
The argument, or what I've understood, is that the requirement is for a hot meal and not food boxes.



fair enough. Though the same ... concern... remains. ier the cost of the hot meal to the recipient family is the same as the school provided hot meal would have been.

Though I'd then have to ask why a family I know that were receiving such for their son during lockdown were receiving boxes and not hot meals, and where the box included things like a catering size tin of baked beans which was to all intents and purposes unfeasible ...

didds

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350790

Postby NeilW » October 26th, 2020, 3:55 pm

Arborbridge wrote: It's happening more and more and even people with jobs now cannot earn enough to pay their way .


It doesn't have to though. If there was a standing offer of a living wage job, paid directly along the lines of the furlough scheme, (with the labour so purchased added to the famous "volunteer list") then simple competition would sort it out in an auto-stabilised fashion.

Those jobs that didn't pay their way would disappear, along with the firms trying to under price labour. Which would then make space for those firms that did have the capital to deliver the necessary level of productivity.

A lot of this boils down to abandoning the "Beveridge Condition" detailed in "Full Employment in a Free Society" that "Jobs, rather than men, should wait" (pp21).

With that in situ people would be able to afford to feed their children, and firms would be forced to invest capital to drive forward productivity and unit costs down rather than relying on cheap labour

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350799

Postby BellaHubby » October 26th, 2020, 4:45 pm

Arborbridge wrote:In a Britain which is incomparably richer than it was when I was a child, it is a disgrace that there is still child poverty and such an enormous (and increasing) gap in wealth between the top and the bottom.
Arb.

I'm always confused by the term "child poverty". It is apparently defined as
The poverty line in the UK is defined as a household income below 60% of the average.
This threshold is currently around £195 a week for a lone parent with two children.
Using this definition there are over 3 million children living in poverty.

https://www.nourishcommunityfoodbank.or ... the_UK.pdf

Surely that means that, however rich the country, there will always be people in poverty?

bh

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350845

Postby didds » October 26th, 2020, 6:19 pm

The poverty line in the UK is defined as a household income below 60% of the average.
....
Surely that means that, however rich the country, there will always be people in poverty?



I didnt read the PDF. Is that average mean, median or mode?

didds

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350877

Postby G37y » October 26th, 2020, 9:48 pm

The last slogan was "eat out to help out" will the next be "starve a kid to save a quid" there is some real poverty in this country still, some families are feckless and some hard working honest self employed who due to corvid have fallen through the goverment benifit cracks, free school meals does seem a broadbrush approch but they are not all chain smoking, heavily tatooed, large dog owning, sky tv watching, Ipod 10 owners. Every day I just think how lucky I am.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350884

Postby Snorvey » October 26th, 2020, 10:43 pm

At the end of the day, it's not the child's fault.

Maybe someone should take the starving kids in and train them up to be....oooh I dunno, pickpockets or something.

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#350901

Postby servodude » October 27th, 2020, 1:00 am

didds wrote:
The poverty line in the UK is defined as a household income below 60% of the average.
....
Surely that means that, however rich the country, there will always be people in poverty?



I didnt read the PDF. Is that average mean, median or mode?

didds


It would appear to be the median that is generally used

I hope this is allowed to be posted
- this distribution is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_i ... ed_Kingdom
Image

along with:
Those who live in absolute poverty have a ‘household income below 60 percent of median income' as compared to a rate fixed in 2010/11 and that only changes in line with inflation.

Those who live in relative poverty have a ‘household income below 60 percent of median income' as compared to all other incomes in the same year.


-sd

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Re: Should Government Offer Free School Meals During the Holiday

#351001

Postby Arborbridge » October 27th, 2020, 11:36 am

BellaHubby wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:In a Britain which is incomparably richer than it was when I was a child, it is a disgrace that there is still child poverty and such an enormous (and increasing) gap in wealth between the top and the bottom.
Arb.

I'm always confused by the term "child poverty". It is apparently defined as
The poverty line in the UK is defined as a household income below 60% of the average.
This threshold is currently around £195 a week for a lone parent with two children.
Using this definition there are over 3 million children living in poverty.

https://www.nourishcommunityfoodbank.or ... the_UK.pdf

Surely that means that, however rich the country, there will always be people in poverty?

bh


That definition has always been a bone of contention. We say that this isn't true poverty, not like our grandparents laboured under - east end dwellings with eight people to a room, no shoes etc.
Of course, that is perfectly true, but I think society generally takes a more generous view and the idea of relative poverty has a place in planning. There's the thought that social unrest, crime etc can grow in a society of relative have nots pitted against the haves. We see this tendency towards the unrest of the envious even on the TLF when people carp on about how lucky older people are in terms of relative wealth. How much worse, then, for people who are really on the lowest rungs of the ladder when they see the staggering wealth which some individuals accumulate. (e.g. this morning, apparently private jet movements for the wealthy have grown enormously. They can afford to flip over to their second homes in France in a jet, a snip at £25000 round trip cost for four). The gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever before and has increased during the pandemic.

Even if the objection to relative poverty has some merit, I would have thought the least society could do would be to ensure that no one has to sleep rough on the streets. And don't anyone bother to tell me those people do it because they enjoy it: I don't believe anyone who had a choice would live like that, or in a hostel with little physical security or privacy. Oddly, when I was growing up in the North East we had "tramps" in the countryside, but not wholesale beggars in the town centre - or maybe this little middle class kid didn't notice them.

Mind you, I like ultra rich people since it enables them to support good works and institutions. It's just that in a truly civilised society we should be able to organise it so that the poor are dragged upwards too at a similar rate. That's surely the Tory philosophy: make the top rich enough so that some of the crumbs fall off the table on to those below. It's just that that process needs a little help to overcome the inertia: something Tories haven't been good at.

Arb.


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