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Boys v girls at maths

Family, children, advice, schooling, finance for children, all things kids.
servodude
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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639453

Postby servodude » January 10th, 2024, 4:41 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
servodude wrote:I'm a bit worried though if the person that told you the expectation was in an educational position it might turn out to be a self fulfilling prophecy :(

Though if that person was a teacher they'd be speaking from actual experience :? And what was actually said was probably paraphrased.

Two of the ladies I studied with are now quite active in promoting females in STEM in the UK (in addition to the other bits of their careers) - they would be horrified to hear the conjecture posted! (if taken at face value)

Or it might reinforce all their prejudices ...

Not that I have any basis to assume prejudices. At least, not if (as I suspect) they've seen that sentiment often enough that horrified becomes something more like mildly exasperated.


I'm quite certain one of them would be a bit more vocal than that ;) (the other is more sanguine)

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639461

Postby Bubblesofearth » January 10th, 2024, 4:52 pm

This is a good inspirational film for girls aspiring to be mathematicians;

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4846340/

Actually it's a good film full stop

BoE

chas49
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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639477

Postby chas49 » January 10th, 2024, 5:53 pm

Gerry557 wrote:Ks1 maths is more difficult to find. Maybe it's not done or still getting over covid. There is Ks1 Phonics screening check but it was maths specifically I wanted.


The maths data is here (https://explore-education-statistics.se ... nt/2022-23)

In particular:

Attainment at key stage 1 has increased in all subjects compared to 2022

68% of pupils met the expected standard in reading, up from 67% in 2022.

60% of pupils met the expected standard in writing, up from 58% in 2022.

70% of pupils met the expected standard in maths, up from 68% in 2022.

79% of pupils met the expected standard in science, up from 77% in 2022.


You'll need to go down to the View or create your own tables link to get results by gender (or any other split) - good luck - it's not as easy as you might hope.

It's also worth noting that:

End of KS1 assessments will become non-statutory from the 2023/24 academic year onwards. Optional assessments will still be offered, but these statistics will not be published in 2023/24. The phonics screening check attainment section of this publication will continue to be published to the same schedule.

servodude
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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639499

Postby servodude » January 10th, 2024, 7:11 pm

chas49 wrote:
Gerry557 wrote:Ks1 maths is more difficult to find. Maybe it's not done or still getting over covid. There is Ks1 Phonics screening check but it was maths specifically I wanted.


The maths data is here (https://explore-education-statistics.se ... nt/2022-23)

In particular:

Attainment at key stage 1 has increased in all subjects compared to 2022

68% of pupils met the expected standard in reading, up from 67% in 2022.

60% of pupils met the expected standard in writing, up from 58% in 2022.

70% of pupils met the expected standard in maths, up from 68% in 2022.

79% of pupils met the expected standard in science, up from 77% in 2022.


You'll need to go down to the View or create your own tables link to get results by gender (or any other split) - good luck - it's not as easy as you might hope.

It's also worth noting that:

End of KS1 assessments will become non-statutory from the 2023/24 academic year onwards. Optional assessments will still be offered, but these statistics will not be published in 2023/24. The phonics screening check attainment section of this publication will continue to be published to the same schedule.


These web interfaces are always a pain - but I ain't got access to a python terminal here so...
I'll give it a quick bash
Percentage of pupils meeting the expected standard in maths TA for 'Key stage 1 attainment by pupil characteristics' for Boys and Girls in England between 2015/16 and 2022/23
Percentage of pupils meeting the expected standard in maths TA
Boys
2015/16 72%
2016/17 74%
2017/18 75%
2018/19 75%
2019/20 x
2020/21 x
2021/22 68%
2022/23 71%
Girls
2015/16 74%
2016/17 76%
2017/18 77%
2018/19 77%
2019/20 x
2020/21 x
2021/22 67%
2022/23 70%


- on that arbitrarily chosen metric relating to early maths outcomes, over the periods available, the difference between "genders" is within what you would expect for noise... or at least certainly doesn't mark lassies out to be worse ;)

https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/data-tables/key-stage-1-and-phonics-screening-check-attainment/2022-23?subjectId=4a74f3aa-1677-48b6-3acb-08dbc4cb6794

Gerry557
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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639564

Postby Gerry557 » January 11th, 2024, 8:09 am

chas49 wrote:
Gerry557 wrote:Ks1 maths is more difficult to find. Maybe it's not done or still getting over covid. There is Ks1 Phonics screening check but it was maths specifically I wanted.


The maths data is here (https://explore-education-statistics.se ... nt/2022-23)

In particular:

Attainment at key stage 1 has increased in all subjects compared to 2022

68% of pupils met the expected standard in reading, up from 67% in 2022.

60% of pupils met the expected standard in writing, up from 58% in 2022.

70% of pupils met the expected standard in maths, up from 68% in 2022.

79% of pupils met the expected standard in science, up from 77% in 2022.


You'll need to go down to the View or create your own tables link to get results by gender (or any other split) - good luck - it's not as easy as you might hope.

It's also worth noting that:

End of KS1 assessments will become non-statutory from the 2023/24 academic year onwards. Optional assessments will still be offered, but these statistics will not be published in 2023/24. The phonics screening check attainment section of this publication will continue to be published to the same schedule.


I tried with the filter to get the info I was after but put it down to using a tablet not a PC that it might not be working properly or that being a boy I wasn't clever enough :D

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639566

Postby Gerry557 » January 11th, 2024, 8:19 am

servodude wrote:
chas49 wrote:
The maths data is here (https://explore-education-statistics.se ... nt/2022-23)

In particular:



You'll need to go down to the View or create your own tables link to get results by gender (or any other split) - good luck - it's not as easy as you might hope.

It's also worth noting that:



These web interfaces are always a pain - but I ain't got access to a python terminal here so...
I'll give it a quick bash
Percentage of pupils meeting the expected standard in maths TA for 'Key stage 1 attainment by pupil characteristics' for Boys and Girls in England between 2015/16 and 2022/23
Percentage of pupils meeting the expected standard in maths TA
Boys
2015/16 72%
2016/17 74%
2017/18 75%
2018/19 75%
2019/20 x
2020/21 x
2021/22 68%
2022/23 71%
Girls
2015/16 74%
2016/17 76%
2017/18 77%
2018/19 77%
2019/20 x
2020/21 x
2021/22 67%
2022/23 70%


- on that arbitrarily chosen metric relating to early maths outcomes, over the periods available, the difference between "genders" is within what you would expect for noise... or at least certainly doesn't mark lassies out to be worse ;)

https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/data-tables/key-stage-1-and-phonics-screening-check-attainment/2022-23?subjectId=4a74f3aa-1677-48b6-3acb-08dbc4cb6794


This is what I was trying to find. The facts. 8-)

Yes nothing to really support that poor statement. I will colate the info and it's origins and pass on. Hopefully re educate one female doing a disservice to others.


Thank you all for your assistance. Oh that film is good by the way. The Queens Gambit might be another worth a watch that supports women.

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639717

Postby redsturgeon » January 11th, 2024, 8:05 pm

My understanding (which could well be wrong) is that the distribution of male ability vs female ability shows more of a long tail distribution at both ends of the bell curve. That is, males tend to show a greater number of both geniuses and laggards in maths.

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639727

Postby Lootman » January 11th, 2024, 9:00 pm

redsturgeon wrote:My understanding (which could well be wrong) is that the distribution of male ability vs female ability shows more of a long tail distribution at both ends of the bell curve. That is, males tend to show a greater number of both geniuses and laggards in maths.

Sounds reasonable. For that matter statistically men out-perform women at all kinds of things, both good and bad. So most Nobel Prize winners are men but also men are the majority of those in prison. Maybe men prefer to specialise whereas women tend to feel the need to be all-rounders?

But is maths that important? As a kid I was fast and accurate at mental arithmetic. Before calculators and computers, and when money was pre-decimal and measures were pre-metric, that came in handy. Not so much now. Applied maths is mainly useful only if you want to be an engineer, and the pay is poor there. Pure maths is really just a convention that teaches you nothing about the real world - the ultimate left-brained luxury.

As long as you are really good at one thing that makes you good money, then you can always pay others to do the 99 things that you are no good at. If Messi, Jagger and Branson are crap at maths, do they care?

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639810

Postby Bubblesofearth » January 12th, 2024, 7:04 am

redsturgeon wrote:My understanding (which could well be wrong) is that the distribution of male ability vs female ability shows more of a long tail distribution at both ends of the bell curve. That is, males tend to show a greater number of both geniuses and laggards in maths.


This chap would agree;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... that%20bad.

Not that it's pc to mention this sort of finding these days. :o

BoE

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#639816

Postby Gerry557 » January 12th, 2024, 8:28 am

"But is maths that important?"

It's difficult to go through life without it. I was a maths governor in my time and had the opportunity to observe some lessons.

One child was struggling and had a bit of a giving up attitude. I knew the parents and spoke with them about my observations. I suggested spending some extra time going over the times tables. The had been covered previously in the curriculum.

My next visit was a revelation. The child was engaged and was progressing. She said it was easy now she knew her tables. I suppose its difficult to build a house without the foundations.

I also observed a young engineer tapping away on his phone trying to work out 2% of a 100 psi pressure gauge. I don't know if that was habit, lazyness or poor understanding.

I sometimes wonder if schools go through a box ticking exercise and when done skills are never reinforced by ongoing work.

A bit of maths can save you money even if its to work out if buying beans as a 3 pack, 4 pack or 6 pack works out cheaper per tin.

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640109

Postby XFool » January 13th, 2024, 1:33 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:My understanding (which could well be wrong) is that the distribution of male ability vs female ability shows more of a long tail distribution at both ends of the bell curve. That is, males tend to show a greater number of both geniuses and laggards in maths.

This chap would agree;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... that%20bad.

"This chap" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn

"Richard Lynn (20 February 1930 – July 2023) was a controversial English psychologist and self-described "scientific racist" who advocated for a genetic relationship between race and intelligence. He was a professor emeritus of psychology at Ulster University, but had the title withdrawn by the university in 2018. He was the editor-in-chief of Mankind Quarterly, which is commonly described as a white supremacist journal. Lynn was lecturer in psychology at the University of Exeter and professor of psychology at the Economic and Social Research Institute, Dublin, and at the University of Ulster at Coleraine."

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640112

Postby XFool » January 13th, 2024, 1:44 pm

Gerry557 wrote:"But is maths that important?"

It's difficult to go through life without it. I was a maths governor in my time and had the opportunity to observe some lessons.

What do you mean by "a maths governor"?

Gerry557 wrote:I also observed a young engineer tapping away on his phone trying to work out 2% of a 100 psi pressure gauge. I don't know if that was habit, lazyness or poor understanding.

My only, lowly, experience in this area was helping out in "numeracy classes" in a local college - such as for students from abroad or people seeking or returning to employment. Obviously there was a wide range of abilities in such classes.

One thing that fascinated me was how many of the students, when asked what ten times, or one tenth of, a number was would diligently set to work calculating the answer!

IMO, the subject of 'maths' and schooling is complex: maths can be a very intimidating subject to people not naturally gifted in the subject (such as myself) and the reasons are not necessarily obvious or simple.

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640113

Postby Lootman » January 13th, 2024, 1:52 pm

Gerry557 wrote:
Lootman wrote:But is maths that important? As a kid I was fast and accurate at mental arithmetic. Before calculators and computers, and when money was pre-decimal and measures were pre-metric, that came in handy. Not so much now. Applied maths is mainly useful only if you want to be an engineer, and the pay is poor there. Pure maths is really just a convention that teaches you nothing about the real world - the ultimate left-brained luxury.

"But is maths that important?"

It's difficult to go through life without it. I was a maths governor in my time and had the opportunity to observe some lessons.

One child was struggling and had a bit of a giving up attitude. I knew the parents and spoke with them about my observations. I suggested spending some extra time going over the times tables. The had been covered previously in the curriculum.

My next visit was a revelation. The child was engaged and was progressing. She said it was easy now she knew her tables. I suppose its difficult to build a house without the foundations.

I also observed a young engineer tapping away on his phone trying to work out 2% of a 100 psi pressure gauge. I don't know if that was habit, lazyness or poor understanding.

I sometimes wonder if schools go through a box ticking exercise and when done skills are never reinforced by ongoing work.

A bit of maths can save you money even if its to work out if buying beans as a 3 pack, 4 pack or 6 pack works out cheaper per tin.

I think there is an important distinction between being numerate and being good at maths.

A basic ability to do sums in your head is useful. You may not always have access to a device, or it may be inconvenient to use one. And having a sense of the approximate right answer is helpful.

But other than engineers who needs to know or use calculus or trigonometry? Not to mention set theory or imaginary numbers?

In my 17 years of working in the City only two of the very well paid guys I worked with used any kind of advanced maths. One was a bond trader who used calculus to discover fair value for bond prices. The other was a derivatives guy who used the Black-Scholes equation, again to compute value.

The rest of us were numerate but nothing more than that. A good number of us were liberal arts graduates with no formal training in maths beyond O level.

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640116

Postby XFool » January 13th, 2024, 2:00 pm

Lootman wrote:I think there is an important distinction between being numerate and being good at maths.

A basic ability to do sums in your head is useful. You may not always have access to a device, or it may be inconvenient to use one. And having a sense of the approximate right answer is helpful.

But other than engineers who needs to know or use calculus or trigonometry? Not to mention set theory or imaginary numbers?

Basically correct, IMO, but need to include IT specialists, physical scientists and - pure and applied mathematicians in there!

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640121

Postby 88V8 » January 13th, 2024, 2:34 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:A basic ability to do sums in your head is useful. You may not always have access to a device, or it may be inconvenient to use one. And having a sense of the approximate right answer is helpful.

But other than engineers who needs to know or use calculus or trigonometry? Not to mention set theory or imaginary numbers?

Basically correct, IMO, but need to include IT specialists, physical scientists and - pure and applied mathematicians in there!

Talking with a young chap, hotel waiter at Christmas, doing a Higher Maths course at college... "what are you going to do with it?"
Don't know, but it's a good learning discipline".

V8

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640122

Postby Lootman » January 13th, 2024, 2:42 pm

88V8 wrote:Talking with a young chap, hotel waiter at Christmas, doing a Higher Maths course at college... "what are you going to do with it?"
Don't know, but it's a good learning discipline".

Which of course is the stock response of everyone studying any "useless" subject, like art history, music, hispanic studies, Egyptology, medieval literature and so on. :D

Loot (proud owner of a useless degree).

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640143

Postby SalvorHardin » January 13th, 2024, 4:36 pm

Lootman wrote:But is maths that important? As a kid I was fast and accurate at mental arithmetic. Before calculators and computers, and when money was pre-decimal and measures were pre-metric, that came in handy. Not so much now. Applied maths is mainly useful only if you want to be an engineer, and the pay is poor there. Pure maths is really just a convention that teaches you nothing about the real world - the ultimate left-brained luxury.

From personal experience, advanced maths is rather important if you want to be an Actuary!! I woudn't write off Engineering as a high earning career for applied maths; it pays relatively badly in the UK but much better in some other countries (particularly America).

A key mathematical skill is being able to tell if an answer "looks reasonable". You don't need to get the exact answer, just to have a feel if the figures are "roughly right" or "precisely wrong". Lots of people are at a huge disadvantage because they often can't see when a mathematical answer is "obviously wrong". Those of us with a decent maths background generally spot these errors because we've spent so much time doing maths we've got better instincts. The technique of solving maths problems by guessing the answer and working back to the question is quite commonly used.

There's a lot of advanced maths underpinning the modern world, lying hidden beneath the surface (e.g. weather forecasting relies heavily on the binomial theorem). Yes, you don't need stuff like calculus, group theory or topology for everyday life. But sometimes a bit of advanced maths separates those who can do from those who can't.

An understanding of probability, statistics and risk theory makes life much easier and less stressful (for one thing you're far less likely to waste resources worrying about the extremely low probability events that causes the man on the Clapham Omnibus to waste lots of resources). Game theory is extremely useful in modelling people's behaviour, particularly in fields such as economics and military strategy.

Most of us who invest in the stockmarket apply game theory and probability theory to some extent. We just don't necessarily realise it.

Linear programming is extremely useful when dealing with everyday problems involving allocation of resources (most people use it regularly, such as when deciding what to buy given a limted budget, though they don't formally reduce matters to simultaneous equations and optimised utility functions). Some years ago I helped a client out with a problem regarding allocating work to different departments which was reducible to multiple simultaneous equations which were quickly solved by a brute force spreadsheet.

The Pareto distribution explains a huge amount about life in general (80% of outcomes are due to 20% of causes) - it's one of those bits of maths that is highly influential economics and human psychology than anything else. And I'm a far better gambler because I know a lot about probability and statistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution

Pure Maths doesn't have everyday uses but it has been used to develop all sorts of real world applications, most of which are discovered many years after the maths was discovered. For example, modern cryptography (which underpins the internet, including browser encryption for shopping online) relies heavily upon the work of Srinivasa Ramanujan, an Indian mathematician who died in 1920 and IMHO is the most influential mathematician since Euler (the film about his life, "The Man Who Knew Infinity", starring Dev Patel and Jeremy Irons, is worth a watch (link below)).

Most of the mathematics of General Relativity was developed in the 1850s by Bernard Riemann and was long though to be of no practical use. As for Quantum Mechanics, that draws upon all sorts of maths which was though to be totally impractical yet it's now the basis for a huge part of the modern economy (e.g. semiconductors).

Here's the trailer for "The Man Who Knew Infinity"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGm9Vlfx4w

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640187

Postby Gerry557 » January 14th, 2024, 7:38 am

"What do you mean by "a maths governor"?"

Schools have governors to oversee the running of the school and be a critical friend of the Head.

Some are Local Education Authority appointed others are parent governors or can be subject oriented, Maths, English etc. Some are teacher governors.

So that particular role looked at all aspects that affected maths. Recruitment, staffing, equipment, facilities, training and attainment.

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640190

Postby Alaric » January 14th, 2024, 8:50 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Food for thought. If men don't have a natural advantage at intellectual games like chess (let alone bridge, which also has a strong social element), why are there separate mens and womens tournaments at elite levels?


In Chess anyway, there are no separate elite tournaments for men. Instead it's Open and female only. The female only tournaments generally speaking have a lower standard of play and higher prize money than for Open players of a similar standard. Hence some controversy about whether those declaring themselves female unsupported by their biology should be allowed to participate.

The theory about why there are so few women in the world's top players is supposed to be because there are fewer of them. Those proposing ideas about "brains hard wired for chess" are denounced.

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Re: Boys v girls at maths

#640209

Postby XFool » January 14th, 2024, 10:20 am

Gerry557 wrote:"What do you mean by "a maths governor"?"

Schools have governors to oversee the running of the school and be a critical friend of the Head.

Some are Local Education Authority appointed others are parent governors or can be subject oriented, Maths, English etc. Some are teacher governors.

So that particular role looked at all aspects that affected maths. Recruitment, staffing, equipment, facilities, training and attainment.

OK, thanks Gerry557.


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