Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Loup321,pje16,AsleepInYorkshire,swill453,bruncher, for Donating to support the site

Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Forum rules
This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
servodude
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3343
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:56 am
Has thanked: 1287 times
Been thanked: 966 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419433

Postby servodude » June 14th, 2021, 11:27 am

XFool wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
GrahamPlatt wrote:I am not going to waste my time.

You have no evidence then?
It just seemed like a non sequiter to jump from molecular biology to the political question of whether a virus was released deliberately by an aggessive totalitarian state.

Quick question: Why would an "aggressive totalitarian state" deliberately release a deadly virus in its own population?


Because they're foreign!! ;)

XFool
Lemon Half
Posts: 6953
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 865 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419434

Postby XFool » June 14th, 2021, 11:33 am

Nimrod103 wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/03/china-will-have-destroyed-proof-wuhan-coronavirus-leak-says/

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why ... -lab-leak/

Serious questions about Chinese responsibility for developing this virus are being asked. I was not aware of the work of vaccines expert Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr Birger Sorensen. More evidence of the smoking gun.

I just read the above post! Let's just leave The Daily Telegraph to one side for now. :)

My impression is that the (ironically named?) Conservative Woman website is a hotbed of conspiracy thinking. I wouldn't even bother...

Nimrod103
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3885
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:10 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 289 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419435

Postby Nimrod103 » June 14th, 2021, 11:42 am

XFool wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/03/china-will-have-destroyed-proof-wuhan-coronavirus-leak-says/

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why ... -lab-leak/

Serious questions about Chinese responsibility for developing this virus are being asked. I was not aware of the work of vaccines expert Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr Birger Sorensen. More evidence of the smoking gun.

I just read the above post! Let's just leave The Daily Telegraph to one side for now. :)

My impression is that the (ironically named?) Conservative Woman website is a hotbed of conspiracy thinking. I wouldn't even bother...


I guess Joe Biden must read it, because he is asking the same questions.
You shouldn't dismiss any source on this subject as being beneath you. There is so much filtering and censoring going on on mainstream media.

XFool
Lemon Half
Posts: 6953
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 865 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419443

Postby XFool » June 14th, 2021, 12:06 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
XFool wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/03/china-will-have-destroyed-proof-wuhan-coronavirus-leak-says/

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/why ... -lab-leak/

Serious questions about Chinese responsibility for developing this virus are being asked. I was not aware of the work of vaccines expert Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr Birger Sorensen. More evidence of the smoking gun.

I just read the above post! Let's just leave The Daily Telegraph to one side for now. :)

My impression is that the (ironically named?) Conservative Woman website is a hotbed of conspiracy thinking. I wouldn't even bother...

You shouldn't dismiss any source on this subject as being beneath you.

No? I always dismiss sources that are full of obvious BS and will continue to do so.

Nimrod103 wrote:There is so much filtering and censoring going on on mainstream media.

If anything is based in reality there is no good reason why it will not eventually be reported in the reliable "mainstream media".

XFool
Lemon Half
Posts: 6953
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 865 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419462

Postby XFool » June 14th, 2021, 1:22 pm

More grist to the mill:

CGGCGG: The latest new-old wrinkle in the COVID-19 “lab leak” conspiracy theory

Respectful Insolence

Earlier this week, the Wall Street Journal published an editorial claiming that the sequence CGGCGG in SARS-CoV-2 means that the coronavirus must be engineered. It’s utter nonsense.

Nimrod103
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3885
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:10 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 289 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419472

Postby Nimrod103 » June 14th, 2021, 1:55 pm

XFool wrote:More grist to the mill:

CGGCGG: The latest new-old wrinkle in the COVID-19 “lab leak” conspiracy theory

Respectful Insolence

Earlier this week, the Wall Street Journal published an editorial claiming that the sequence CGGCGG in SARS-CoV-2 means that the coronavirus must be engineered. It’s utter nonsense.


When any scientic or quasi scientific article makes a comment such as "Earlier this week, the Wall Street Journal published an editorial claiming that the sequence CGGCGG in SARS-CoV-2 means that the coronavirus must be engineered. It’s utter nonsense." I get concerned about its impartiality. Even without understanding much of the described science, I can recognize that at this stage of the investigation, it is far too early to make any damning comment about one theory versus another.

Which AIUI was the view taken in the previously cited work:
https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-ori ... -at-wuhan/
Which I thought was quite open minded and even handed.

The only bizarre and non-sensical thing about this whole saga, is the way many pundits have jumped to make definitive rulings or have not declared their own interests. I continue to have an open mind, except for the fact that the outbreak occurred in a city where there is a lab making highly dangerous and life threatening new viruses. The onus is on them to come clean.

XFool
Lemon Half
Posts: 6953
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 865 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419481

Postby XFool » June 14th, 2021, 3:02 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:When any scientic or quasi scientific article makes a comment such as "Earlier this week, the Wall Street Journal published an editorial claiming that the sequence CGGCGG in SARS-CoV-2 means that the coronavirus must be engineered. It’s utter nonsense." I get concerned about its impartiality.

Why? If the person saying that backs it up with reasonable explanations?

Nimrod103 wrote:Even without understanding much of the described science, I can recognize that at this stage of the investigation, it is far too early to make any damning comment about one theory versus another.

Good.

Nimrod103 wrote:Which AIUI was the view taken in the previously cited work:
https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-ori ... -at-wuhan/
Which I thought was quite open minded and even handed.

Yes? If you say so.

"People round the world who have been pretty much confined to their homes for the last year might like a better answer than their media are giving them. Perhaps one will emerge in time. After all, the more months pass without the natural emergence theory gaining a shred of supporting evidence, the less plausible it may seem. Perhaps the international community of virologists will come to be seen as a false and self-interested guide. The common sense perception that a pandemic breaking out in Wuhan might have something to do with a Wuhan lab cooking up novel viruses of maximal danger in unsafe conditions could eventually displace the ideological insistence that whatever Trump said can’t be true.

And then let the reckoning begin.
" [ Emphasis mine ]

And with that article in mind, this from 9 June seems relevant:

Leading biologist dampens his ‘smoking gun’ Covid lab leak theory

The Guardian

Nobel laureate David Baltimore says he overstated case, and the origins of the virus are still unknown

"David Baltimore, a distinguished biology professor, had become one of the most prominent figures cited by proponents of the so-called lab leak theory.

Originally quoted in an article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists in May...
"

Nimrod103 wrote:The only bizarre and non-sensical thing about this whole saga, is the way many pundits have jumped to make definitive rulings or have not declared their own interests. I continue to have an open mind, except for the fact that the outbreak occurred in a city where there is a lab making highly dangerous and life threatening new viruses. The onus is on them to come clean.

They have to prove a negative? Reminds me of Saddam Hussein... :)

Nimrod103
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3885
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:10 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 289 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419503

Postby Nimrod103 » June 14th, 2021, 4:12 pm

XFool wrote:They have to prove a negative?


Or they could just allow complete access to everyone and everything, to be investigated by completely independent investigators*. AIUI the Chinese have not done this. Of course, the nightmare scenario is that it escaped from a Chinese lab, which was financed by US money and using some US technology.
In that circumstance, getting to the truth will be impossible, and we are just being led in a merry dance.

*I was very concerned about the stories revolving around one of the WHO investigators, Peter Daszak. Doesn't appear to be independent.

vrdiver
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2654
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 2:22 am
Has thanked: 491 times
Been thanked: 982 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419525

Postby vrdiver » June 14th, 2021, 5:00 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
XFool wrote:They have to prove a negative?


Or they could just allow complete access to everyone and everything

... and have their entire R&D, including Intellectual Property, made available to the whole world?

If the Chinese accused Porton Down of some act, then insisted that their "independent" experts should come over to check it out, demanding full access to "everyone and everything", how would you feel about that, and would you be at all concerned that any highly sensitive work might fall into a potential enemy's hands?

'Cos that's what you're asking of the Chinese...

VRD
(a strong believer in cock-up over conspiracy, as a working assumption)

Mike4
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3458
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 754 times
Been thanked: 1657 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419531

Postby Mike4 » June 14th, 2021, 5:22 pm

vrdiver wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
XFool wrote:They have to prove a negative?


Or they could just allow complete access to everyone and everything

... and have their entire R&D, including Intellectual Property, made available to the whole world?

If the Chinese accused Porton Down of some act, then insisted that their "independent" experts should come over to check it out, demanding full access to "everyone and everything", how would you feel about that, and would you be at all concerned that any highly sensitive work might fall into a potential enemy's hands?

'Cos that's what you're asking of the Chinese...

VRD
(a strong believer in cock-up over conspiracy, as a working assumption)


You mean a lab cock-up presumably releasing it, as opposed to it being a naturally occurring virus?

onthemove
Lemon Slice
Posts: 352
Joined: June 24th, 2017, 4:03 pm
Has thanked: 432 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419532

Postby onthemove » June 14th, 2021, 5:27 pm

XFool wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Which AIUI was the view taken in the previously cited work:
https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-ori ... -at-wuhan/
Which I thought was quite open minded and even handed.

Yes? If you say so.


:?

Now I'm really puzzled. Isn't that the article you linked to here?
viewtopic.php?p=417449#p417449
As you hadn't added any additional commentary, I thought you were posting it as a recommendation that it might interest people(?)

(Though I agree (with what I think you're now saying) that it is anything but open minded!... Imv, that article is pseudo scientific claptrap... making extensive use of scientific and technical words along with quotes from scientists in order to try to give itself an aura of (imv, misleading) credibility, which is then mixed together with pure, speculative, conjecture presented as 'obvious' or 'clear' fact (particularly with regards the likelihood of various situations), to try to build (allegedly) 'obvious' arguments that the lab-leak theory is somehow by far the most likely explanation, all coupled with quite a staggering level of grammatical devices used to position a reader clearly towards one particular conclusion! Imv, you'd be hard pressed to write a more biased article)

XFool
Lemon Half
Posts: 6953
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 865 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419534

Postby XFool » June 14th, 2021, 5:40 pm

onthemove wrote:
XFool wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Which AIUI was the view taken in the previously cited work:
https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-ori ... -at-wuhan/
Which I thought was quite open minded and even handed.

Yes? If you say so.

:?

Now I'm really puzzled. Isn't that the article you linked to here?
viewtopic.php?p=417449#p417449

Yes it is. :)

onthemove wrote:As you hadn't added any additional commentary, I thought you were posting it as a recommendation that it might interest people(?)

Yes, I thought people might be interested though I wasn't recommending it. Possibly I should have read it more carefully myself at the time, particularly the ending, which I have now quoted in a post above. I might then have been more sceptical of it myself.

vrdiver
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2654
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 2:22 am
Has thanked: 491 times
Been thanked: 982 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419549

Postby vrdiver » June 14th, 2021, 6:58 pm

Mike4 wrote:
vrdiver wrote:VRD
(a strong believer in cock-up over conspiracy, as a working assumption)


You mean a lab cock-up presumably releasing it, as opposed to it being a naturally occurring virus?


Cock-up seems more likely than deliberate release, if only from my limited experience of human beings and their ability to get everything right every time. Whether it was cock-up or a natural event in which a natural virus crossed species via a wet market, I don't know and don't have enough expertise or data to conclude one way or the other. The political ramifications of a lab release are pretty substantial, so I'd expect some countries to be running interference to get a result that is politically advantageous, even at the expense of the truth. That interference could be anything from trying to get the world to believe it was deliberate, through to obfuscating the original source. What I don't expect is any government to have a "no political interest, just the truth please" stance.

VRD

Julian
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1058
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:58 am
Has thanked: 337 times
Been thanked: 430 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419576

Postby Julian » June 14th, 2021, 11:08 pm

I feel that I can form a personal view that, if it leaked from a lab, accident rather than some weird plan to poison the rest of the world using your own country as a starting point is more likely simply based on my personal assessment of the absurdity of releasing a biological agent targeted against a foreign entity in one’s own country. When it comes to forming a personal opinion as to which side of the lab vs natural origin debate I fall on however I just can’t decide. While that debate is still centred around detailed scientific discussion about, for instance, whether the sequence of amino acid sequence at the S1/S2 furin cleavage spike on the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is indicative of lab manipulation or not, I am frankly totally out of my depth. If some highly credible and well verified whistle blower came along to add some humint to the picture then maybe I could understand and hence form some sort of personal opinion based on that but when the core of the natural vs lab origin debate is centred around highly detailed bio-scientific nuances with claim and counter-claim amongst research virologists how on earth am I, a computer scientist and a physicist, supposed to form my own judgement on the likely validity of the opposing views?

- Julian

murraypaul
Lemon Slice
Posts: 335
Joined: April 9th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419739

Postby murraypaul » June 15th, 2021, 5:22 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Or they could just allow complete access to everyone and everything, to be investigated by completely independent investigators*. AIUI the Chinese have not done this.


If you are the Chinese, who do you consider independent?
Certainly not the US.

Nimrod103
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3885
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:10 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 289 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419759

Postby Nimrod103 » June 15th, 2021, 6:57 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Or they could just allow complete access to everyone and everything, to be investigated by completely independent investigators*. AIUI the Chinese have not done this.


If you are the Chinese, who do you consider independent?
Certainly not the US.


Seeing as (according to some reports) the USA financed the lab in Wuhan, independent is a moot point. Personally I would trust the Chinese even less than the US. Do you trust the Chinese to tell the truth? You imply that you do.

onthemove
Lemon Slice
Posts: 352
Joined: June 24th, 2017, 4:03 pm
Has thanked: 432 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419772

Postby onthemove » June 15th, 2021, 7:30 pm

Nimrod103 wrote: Personally I would trust the Chinese even less than the US. Do you trust the Chinese to tell the truth? You imply that you do.


I think the Chinese are getting rather a raw deal.

Let's not forget, it was thanks to the Chinese genetically sequencing sars-cov-2, and providing that sequence to scientists the world over that enabled the Oxford team (and presumably it was the same for the Pfizer teams, as well) to proactively start developing their vaccines in record time before they'd even got their hands on actual virus DNA themselves.

The Shanghai virologist Professor Zhang Yongzhen first decoded the virus’s genetic structure and published his results on the internet. Gilbert and her colleagues immediately began working on a vaccine using Zhang’s data. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... scientists


The Oxford (etc) scientists seem to have a lot more trust in the Chinese to work cooperatively, than it seems many people in the UK (and US) would.

Something to think about, particularly for those who have themselves benefitted from the Oxford/AZ vaccine. Aren't you (those who've had the AZ vaccine) at least a little bit grateful for the positive role that China has played in getting that to you?

9873210
Lemon Slice
Posts: 328
Joined: December 9th, 2016, 6:44 am
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419781

Postby 9873210 » June 15th, 2021, 7:58 pm

onthemove wrote:Let's not forget, it was thanks to the Chinese genetically sequencing sars-cov-2, and providing that sequence to scientists the world over that enabled the Oxford team (and presumably it was the same for the Pfizer teams, as well) to proactively start developing their vaccines in record time before they'd even got their hands on actual virus DNA themselves.

Sequencing a virus is not a particularly difficult step. The sequence would be available with a week or so of a sample getting to a lab, which means within a week or so of a verified case occurring in almost any country outside of China. Which means that the sequence would be known within a couple of weeks of the Chinese release whether or not China had attempted to keep in secret.

China gets some credit for publishing the sequence early, but it did not have world changing implications. Withholding the sequence would probably have delayed vaccines by a few days, at worst by a few weeks.

Releasing information that is going to be public anyway does not require a particularly high commitment to openness. It basically means you are not North Korea or the LAPD. A very low standard of decency.

murraypaul
Lemon Slice
Posts: 335
Joined: April 9th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419809

Postby murraypaul » June 15th, 2021, 9:39 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:You imply that you do.


No I don't.
I say that the idea that China should consider US/UK/... investigators independent is silly.

Nimrod103
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3885
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:10 pm
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 289 times

Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#419818

Postby Nimrod103 » June 15th, 2021, 10:34 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:You imply that you do.


No I don't.
I say that the idea that China should consider US/UK/... investigators independent is silly.


Why should China regard UK investigators as not being independent? The origin in Wuhan is too much of a coincidence. The Chinese have to be completely open. They have not been.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... -lab-leak/
The WIV's refusal to allow an independent investigation of its laboratory or its research into coronaviruses has further fuelled suspicions that Covid-19 may have originated and leaked from the institute. But Dr Shi has rejected calls for further scrutiny of the WIV, telling the New York Times: "How on earth can I offer up evidence for something where there is no evidence?" “I don’t know how the world has come to this, constantly pouring filth on an innocent scientist,” she added.
She oozes insincerity and dishonesty. All IMHO of course.


Return to “Coronavirus Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: madhatter, Sorcery and 1 guest