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Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
bluedonkey
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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432103

Postby bluedonkey » August 2nd, 2021, 6:40 pm

This may be relevant regarding the question of catching from surfaces:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56007908

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432108

Postby Sunnypad » August 2nd, 2021, 7:08 pm

Hi
I am not sure if any of my ramble will be helpful but here goes

I have a range of health issues and in December 2019 my doctor asked me to come in urgently for a health check because of what they thought was a "strange pneumonia" doing the rounds. She said it had been noticed by GPs in my part of London from November.

I wasn't worried, in spite of being germphobic, being the annoying person who sprays Dettol round the office, being the person who directly tells people with colds to keep away from me. Known as an obsessive handwasher prior to this.

I figure I do as much as I can to avoid repeat attacks of pneumonia that hit me very hard in my 20s. I get off the Tube and use a nasal rinse and gargle with mouthwash as well as handwashing.

I avoid touching my face which is really important and sadly has gone out of the window for many mask wearers. I do understand, of course they need adjusting sometimes.

So a new respiratory disease after SARS and MERS etc didn't mean much to me.

In January 2020, I obviously realised what the doctors had been seeing. My late father specialised in infectious disease. His contacts saw it too but said people were recovering.

On 30th or 31st Jan, 2020, I began to panic seriously, not about Covid, but about the Health Secretary's comments.

So that's me, as a germphobe who is considered vulnerable.

My mum has friends in their 80s who stopped quarantining post etc because I gather many studies deem it irrelevant. I can't link them but if even these people stopped...they haven't been anywhere since March 2020. Their daughter sees them in the garden. I'm amazed she bothers tbh.

A relative in his 60s has many disabilities, dialysis three times a week, and was on the shielding list (which he ignored, he's nearly died and spent tons of time in hospital so hiding indoors was never going to be acceptable to him). He got Covid recently, after two jabs. It was annoying and food tasted like rubber but that was it really.

Dunno if that's any help.

Have you looked at your risk and how it compares to stuff like flu and pneumonia? I can't help with figures but I know some people find them helpful and perceptions of serious cases seem to be a bit skewed.

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432115

Postby Sunnypad » August 2nd, 2021, 8:00 pm

PS to pick up on this point by murraypaul "I think everybody needs to make their own decision on what restrictions they think increase their own safety and comfort, balanced against how much quality of life they lose by not doing certain things."

You do you, I agree. But I hope that you will thank, or tip, the people who have kept society going throughout this, the VIPs, so food producers, suppliers, shop staff, packing staff...refuse collectors, delivery drivers.

I don't know if you are able to be self sufficient or if you are a major prepper type. If so, this may not be a factor, but you mention deliveries. These workers are absolute gems and deserve our gratitude.

I admit I am probably confusing people in real life... In my area and mum's area, I can wave and smile at refuse collectors and street cleaners as they know me. Today I was in an area I don't normally don't go to and a street cleaner did seem a bit surprised by me waving hello across the street. :lol:

But society is so horribly fractured and I think mostly people who barely venture out are the most heavily dependent on these key workers. So let's show a bit of love. Some of them are scared too. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432139

Postby servodude » August 3rd, 2021, 2:01 am

mc2fool wrote:
9873210 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:There are, of course, no statistics on how people have caught covid 'cos it is extremely difficult, if not impossible in most cases, to determine how a covid sufferer acquired the virus.

It is my understanding that Australia, South Korea and a few other countries* have spent the last year tracking the vast majority of transmissions in their countries. Sequencing each infection to build a phylogenetic tree tells you who infected whom. Intensive detective work tells you how, in most cases with a high degree of certainty.

I'm pretty sure I've seen second hand reports from these countries on what works. If I wanted to run them to ground that's where I'd start.

* Possibly including China, but that's behind the Great Firewall.

Actually the world leader, in genomic sequencing of covid, i.e. the country with the biggest capacity and that does the most, is the UK. All such data world wide goes into GISAID and is used by the likes of NextStrain to produce their phylogeny showing the evolutionary relationships of covid viruses.

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/gisaid/global (Warning, a not too ancient PC with a reasonable graphics card needed, or the site will drag your system to a crawl!).

I don't see how, if you and I are on the tube and I get covid from you, it can be determined that it was from direct respiratory transmission vs fomite transmission, e.g. you breathing onto a pole which I then touched and rubbed my nose afterwards. However, if they do have such high degree of certainty statistics I'm sure we'd all appreciate a link. ;)


In some ways "it ain't what you've got - it's what you do with it" ;)

Being able to sequence loads of tests is really impressive and very useful in and of itself (for metrics at a pandemic level)

Being able to use that to determine the precise chain of transmission through individuals for an outbreak elevates that to immensely practical at a local level (meaning you have clear visibility of the spread in both directions and affording targeted mitigation strategies - not that they'd necessarily work - eh Gladys?! eh?!)

Being able to tie that in to other data (phone history, contact tracing, location check-ins) to find (with a high degree of certainty) video footage of the moment of transmission for an "unlinked" case is really a whole other level again (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-22/covid19-cctv-footage-worrying-nsw-health-authorities/100231832)

On transmission:
While it has been proven in the lab that fomite transmission is "possible" every other thing I've read (aside from one about a frozen fish in NZ and some Weibo propaganda about it being brought in to China in a deep freeze) suggests that it just isn't an issue in the real world.
Especially if you take care with basic hand hygiene; so while you wouldn't want to rub your hands on a door handle and lick your fingers, you don't need to wash the bags the lettuce comes in

Just about everything suggests you should concentrate on mitigating the chance of breathing in aerosols of the virus
That would involve:
- air flow, ventilation; as much as possible! dilute the air!
- staying away from crowded places people are shouting ( so miserable pubs with the windows open are fine, less so shoulder to shoulder watching Hearts beat Celtic :) )
- masks where it makes sense (decide where and what mask works for you - wear it confidently )
and that's about it unless you find yourself in high risk medical setting (in the words of Spinal Tap you should "double bag it" in those cases)

Taking a step back, in to the conceptual side of things, once someone is double jabbed this is no longer a "novel" virus to them
It is no longer the case that their body has no-idea what to do; it has a plan for defence
- a little bit of exposure will help the body exercise that plan
- so while you still don't want to be playing tonsil hockey with infected people you don't know well, it's not a bad idea to get out and give your immune system a chance to flex its new bionic muscles

- sd

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432150

Postby Dod101 » August 3rd, 2021, 7:23 am

servodude wrote:Taking a step back, in to the conceptual side of things, once someone is double jabbed this is no longer a "novel" virus to them
It is no longer the case that their body has no-idea what to do; it has a plan for defence
- a little bit of exposure will help the body exercise that plan
- so while you still don't want to be playing tonsil hockey with infected people you don't know well, it's not a bad idea to get out and give your immune system a chance to flex its new bionic muscles

- sd


None of this is helping the OP but I entirely agree with servotude particularly his comments above. The longer the OP remains isolated the greater the risk to his mental health and to his physical health once he exposes himself to the outside world.

Personally I have never isolated myself and have always gone to a supermarket for shopping and walked most days without a mask. Even so I remember not so long ago driving about 50 miles to visit my daughter and really having actively to remember the route! I am rather older than the OP but so far have got through this without getting Covid.

Dod

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432162

Postby pje16 » August 3rd, 2021, 8:28 am

Arizona11 wrote:My wife and I are early 60’s no kids and retired. We have had both jabs. I should also say that two dearly loved cousins have died from Covid, so I don’t think I am being totally irrational.

We are still being very cautious, as we have been from the start of all this. We don’t touch post or packages for many days. Groceries delivered by Ocado are cleaned when they arrived. We don’t see our friends, but they seem to be doing whatever they want. We wear masks when we go for a walk and wash our hands all the time. Haven’t been in a shop since March 2020.

Here is the problem. Lifting all the restrictions recently was the worst thing that could happen as we want to get rid of the virus and also get our lives back again. All we read/hear is “if not now, then when?” And my answer is “not when the figures are at their worst in ages and spreading quickly”. We think people doing normal things like there is no pandemic is crazy. Yes I know that double jabbed people are unlikely to get seriously ill, but I don’t want to get ill at all! People moaning about their holiday being spoiled seem mad to us. Why are you flying in the middle of a pandemic. Do these people have a death wish?

I do not really want comments from those who think we are mad and should get on with our lives (who cares if we get ill or maybe die!). I would like to hear from those behaving like us and still being really careful to confirm that, rather than being crazy, we are actually doing the sensible and responsible thing at this time. We are worried that this pandemic will go on for years as so many people continue to behave in such an irresponsible way. The more they do, the more the infections and the increased risk of new variants which may also be vaccine resistant. Why are these people behaving like that?

Any reassurance that can be given to us would be very much appreciated.

In a nutshell if more had done the same as you back in March-June 2020 it would never have spread to the extent it did

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432164

Postby Dod101 » August 3rd, 2021, 8:36 am

pje16 wrote:
Arizona11 wrote:My wife and I are early 60’s no kids and retired. We have had both jabs. I should also say that two dearly loved cousins have died from Covid, so I don’t think I am being totally irrational.

We are still being very cautious, as we have been from the start of all this. We don’t touch post or packages for many days. Groceries delivered by Ocado are cleaned when they arrived. We don’t see our friends, but they seem to be doing whatever they want. We wear masks when we go for a walk and wash our hands all the time. Haven’t been in a shop since March 2020.

Here is the problem. Lifting all the restrictions recently was the worst thing that could happen as we want to get rid of the virus and also get our lives back again. All we read/hear is “if not now, then when?” And my answer is “not when the figures are at their worst in ages and spreading quickly”. We think people doing normal things like there is no pandemic is crazy. Yes I know that double jabbed people are unlikely to get seriously ill, but I don’t want to get ill at all! People moaning about their holiday being spoiled seem mad to us. Why are you flying in the middle of a pandemic. Do these people have a death wish?

I do not really want comments from those who think we are mad and should get on with our lives (who cares if we get ill or maybe die!). I would like to hear from those behaving like us and still being really careful to confirm that, rather than being crazy, we are actually doing the sensible and responsible thing at this time. We are worried that this pandemic will go on for years as so many people continue to behave in such an irresponsible way. The more they do, the more the infections and the increased risk of new variants which may also be vaccine resistant. Why are these people behaving like that?

Any reassurance that can be given to us would be very much appreciated.

In a nutshell if more had done the same as you back in March-June 2020 it would never have spread to the extent it did


Maybe not.

Dod

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432198

Postby murraypaul » August 3rd, 2021, 10:26 am

Sunnypad wrote:But society is so horribly fractured and I think mostly people who barely venture out are the most heavily dependent on these key workers. So let's show a bit of love. Some of them are scared too. Just wanted to get that off my chest.


This is a very good point. I, and I imagine most of the posters here, are in the privileged position of being able to choose how much risk to take, many people aren't, they have jobs that can't be done from home, or in a distanced way, and can't afford to stop working.

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432208

Postby pje16 » August 3rd, 2021, 11:12 am

Dod101 wrote:
pje16 wrote:
Arizona11 wrote:My wife and I are early 60’s no kids and retired. We have had both jabs. I should also say that two dearly loved cousins have died from Covid, so I don’t think I am being totally irrational.

We are still being very cautious, as we have been from the start of all this. We don’t touch post or packages for many days. Groceries delivered by Ocado are cleaned when they arrived. We don’t see our friends, but they seem to be doing whatever they want. We wear masks when we go for a walk and wash our hands all the time. Haven’t been in a shop since March 2020.

Here is the problem. Lifting all the restrictions recently was the worst thing that could happen as we want to get rid of the virus and also get our lives back again. All we read/hear is “if not now, then when?” And my answer is “not when the figures are at their worst in ages and spreading quickly”. We think people doing normal things like there is no pandemic is crazy. Yes I know that double jabbed people are unlikely to get seriously ill, but I don’t want to get ill at all! People moaning about their holiday being spoiled seem mad to us. Why are you flying in the middle of a pandemic. Do these people have a death wish?

I do not really want comments from those who think we are mad and should get on with our lives (who cares if we get ill or maybe die!). I would like to hear from those behaving like us and still being really careful to confirm that, rather than being crazy, we are actually doing the sensible and responsible thing at this time. We are worried that this pandemic will go on for years as so many people continue to behave in such an irresponsible way. The more they do, the more the infections and the increased risk of new variants which may also be vaccine resistant. Why are these people behaving like that?

Any reassurance that can be given to us would be very much appreciated.

In a nutshell if more had done the same as you back in March-June 2020 it would never have spread to the extent it did


Maybe not.

Dod

Reasons why please

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432212

Postby servodude » August 3rd, 2021, 11:24 am

pje16 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
pje16 wrote:In a nutshell if more had done the same as you back in March-June 2020 it would never have spread to the extent it did


Maybe not.

Dod

Reasons why please


I took Dod's response of "Maybe not." to mean "You're probably right"
- English she is funny the sometimes

-sd

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432213

Postby Lootman » August 3rd, 2021, 11:29 am

servodude wrote:
pje16 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Maybe not.

Reasons why please

I took Dod's response of "Maybe not." to mean "You're probably right"

I took Dod to mean the more logical statement that there is no way to know what might have happened had we taken a different path.

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432220

Postby Dod101 » August 3rd, 2021, 12:02 pm

pje16 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
pje16 wrote:In a nutshell if more had done the same as you back in March-June 2020 it would never have spread to the extent it did


Maybe not.

Dod

Reasons why please


There is no reason for me to provide reasons for my response any more than pje16 needs to justify his statement, although in fact Lootman is pretty much on to it. There is simply no way of knowing whether the statement by pje16 is correct or not. He is not going to get more of a response from me by his using rather peremptory language either.

Dod

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432228

Postby Arizona11 » August 3rd, 2021, 12:50 pm

Thanks for all the replies so far. I realise my behaviour is a little over the top. It is strange how people like me are thought as being a bit crazy and out of touch, when in fact, surely those who venture out in a pandemic may be more logically thought of as a bit crazy. I know that I am not responsible for killing anyone or making anyone ill by my inaction. I can sleep well at night.

Personally, I think the problem is most people have a lack of self discipline. They are mistaking needs and wants. Yes it is lovely to visit a restaurant or go on holiday and I love to do this too, in normal circumstances. At present I do not need to go to a restaurant so I eat at home. Does this make me crazy? I don’t think so.

I can assure you all that I also want to get back to normal, but I think it is surely sensible to do this when the figures have got considerably lower. At present the cases are very high, even if the deaths or hospitalisations are low. It is easy to be cavalier with other people’s lives and I think this reflects the selfish society we live in.

As someone observed on this board, if everyone had done their bit, it is quite possible that this would all be in the rearview mirror by now. Alas, many think going to the pub or going to Spain for a holiday is more important than getting rid of a pandemic. And I am the crazy one!!

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432230

Postby pje16 » August 3rd, 2021, 1:04 pm

Dod101 wrote:There is no reason for me to provide reasons for my response any more than pje16 needs to justify his statement
Dod

Why do I have to justify it?
Read the OP and if you can't work out that the approach to Covid was very safe then I'm not sure how else to explain it

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432232

Postby Julian » August 3rd, 2021, 1:16 pm

Dod101 wrote:...
Personally I have never isolated myself and have always gone to a supermarket for shopping and walked most days without a mask. ... I am rather older than the OP but so far have got through this without getting Covid.

Dod

Unless you caught it asymptomatically which according to current scientific thinking would actually be your best possible outcome given how much higher antibody levels are after vaccination for someone who already has some antibodies from a previous natural infection vs someone who hasn't.

I have behaved much like you but I think I might have caught Covid-19 back in April/May last year due to 8 hours with an extreme symptom not then associated with Covid-19 but now recognised as a symptom at least for the early variants in unvaccinated people which was the situation back then. I certainly hope that what I experienced was a brief bout of Covid-19 for the reasons mentioned in the paragraph above.

- Julian

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432244

Postby Dod101 » August 3rd, 2021, 2:23 pm

Arizona11 wrote:Thanks for all the replies so far. I realise my behaviour is a little over the top. It is strange how people like me are thought as being a bit crazy and out of touch, when in fact, surely those who venture out in a pandemic may be more logically thought of as a bit crazy. I know that I am not responsible for killing anyone or making anyone ill by my inaction. I can sleep well at night.

Personally, I think the problem is most people have a lack of self discipline. They are mistaking needs and wants. Yes it is lovely to visit a restaurant or go on holiday and I love to do this too, in normal circumstances. At present I do not need to go to a restaurant so I eat at home. Does this make me crazy? I don’t think so.

I can assure you all that I also want to get back to normal, but I think it is surely sensible to do this when the figures have got considerably lower. At present the cases are very high, even if the deaths or hospitalisations are low. It is easy to be cavalier with other people’s lives and I think this reflects the selfish society we live in.

As someone observed on this board, if everyone had done their bit, it is quite possible that this would all be in the rearview mirror by now. Alas, many think going to the pub or going to Spain for a holiday is more important than getting rid of a pandemic. And I am the crazy one!!


I think this needs to be answered. It is not a lack of self discipline to go to a supermarket at 8 am in the middle of a pandemic when I could not get a delivery slot anyway. I have been to a restaurant several times since restrictions were lifted. I did that because I live on my own and I was with a couple of friends who are equally on their own and who, like me, value company. Since you have not been to a restaurant you will not know the precautions that most take. That is not being cavalier with other people's lives (or my own; I have five grandchildren whom I wish to know for some time yet) That is taking what may be a calculated risk. Frankly I think there is at least as much of a chance of being knocked down by a car and being killed when out walking (some of it is a pavementless highway) as contracting Covid whilst visiting a restaurant after my two jabs. That is what the jabs are for and they have been, as they say, stunningly effective. I would not even attempt to go abroad at this time, although I have been to N Ireland to see my son and his family.

You seem to have a hang up about people thinking you are crazy. You are the only one who has used the word I think. What you do is entirely up to you and your wife and I certainly would never criticise you for it. It is none of my business how you conduct your life, but please do not criticise others for what they do. At my age for instance, I have probably already lost at least 10% of my remaining life expectancy due to Covid and need to get out and live again.

Dod

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432251

Postby Sunnypad » August 3rd, 2021, 2:42 pm

Arizona "It is strange how people like me are thought as being a bit crazy and out of touch, when in fact, surely those who venture out in a pandemic may be more logically thought of as a bit crazy. I know that I am not responsible for killing anyone or making anyone ill by my inaction. I can sleep well at night."

I can't type what I really think of this.

But the short version is, from your description of yourself and your comments, you seem incredibly proud of having contributed nothing while others have worked hard and enabled you to live in an isolated bubble.

Society is overdue a pandemic, sadly. I can't imagine what life will be like when it turns up. But I doubt you will get supermarket deliveries.

If you have done nothing to help friends, family, neighbours in lockdown, then it will be interesting to see if you get any help. You might be fine without it, of course.

I have had a lot of interesting/depressing moments in lockdown, all of which involved human beings desperate for connection. It's been a tragedy but also I wonder if lockdown has simply prolonged the life span of the virus.

I don't see "venturing out" as being responsible for killing anyone. Your phrasing is quite extraordinary. I defend your right to live as you please but the holier than thou attitude is horrible.

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432254

Postby Arborbridge » August 3rd, 2021, 2:45 pm

Arizona11 wrote:Thanks for all the replies so far. I realise my behaviour is a little over the top. It is strange how people like me are thought as being a bit crazy and out of touch, when in fact, surely those who venture out in a pandemic may be more logically thought of as a bit crazy. I know that I am not responsible for killing anyone or making anyone ill by my inaction. I can sleep well at night.

Personally, I think the problem is most people have a lack of self discipline. They are mistaking needs and wants. Yes it is lovely to visit a restaurant or go on holiday and I love to do this too, in normal circumstances. At present I do not need to go to a restaurant so I eat at home. Does this make me crazy? I don’t think so.



No one here has said they think you are crazy - where did that idea come from? Only you, I think.
On the contrary, you are at one with several of my friends at being on a spectrum from ultra-cautious to less cautious.

I would say "most people" are being very cautious even now and mask wearing in shops and public transport is the norm around where I live. In my view, you are being over-cautious but completely rational. It is possible to venture out and about with almost zero risk if one chooses the time and place sensibly and avoids crowded areas.

And as for self-discipline, I hate to make comments about what others might be feeling. It's OK for us, a pair of oldies who do not work with a good internet connection and a nice house and garden, but I dread to think how I would have survived with three kids in a high rise and living hand to mouth with no spare cash. That wouldn't be a case of self-discipline but extreme survival, and sure people are to be admired for enduring it.

The other side of the coin is that you do not want to be so cautious that your wellbeing suffers. I met some friends of mine for their first walk in the countryside for 18 months last weekend. They have been so terrified of covid that they have not moved from the house until recently, and frankly, I hardly recognised them, they had aged so much. The wife in particular, had developed extreme germophobic habits and even now on the walk wore a pair of gloves topped by a pair of disposal medical ones. As she walked along she kept wringing her hands as though she is so used to using sanitiser she cannot stop mimmicking the action.

This is an extreme, but it seems to have caused a loss of lifeforce and enjoyiment for her.

Arb.

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432258

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » August 3rd, 2021, 3:15 pm

Dod101 wrote:I think this needs to be answered. It is not a lack of self discipline to go to a supermarket at 8 am in the middle of a pandemic when I could not get a delivery slot anyway.
Dod

Dod this is dreadful. How are you feeling. Do you need therapy? This disturbs me in many ways. Please don't go to the supermarket again. And at 8am in the morning ... come on ... what we're you thinking :lol: Look take it easy and make sure you recover before going to a shop again. I went to Murder Hell at the weekend. I didn't see another male - with a smile on his face. I don't have to go again for at least another six months, which is already beginning to trouble me :shock:

AiY :lol:

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Re: Can anyone reassure us or are we alone?

#432260

Postby Arborbridge » August 3rd, 2021, 3:17 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I think this needs to be answered. It is not a lack of self discipline to go to a supermarket at 8 am in the middle of a pandemic when I could not get a delivery slot anyway.
Dod

Dod this is dreadful. How are you feeling. Do you need therapy? This disturbs me in many ways. Please don't go to the supermarket again. And at 8am in the morning ... come on ... what we're you thinking :lol: Look take it easy and make sure you recover before going to a shop again. I went to Murder Hell at the weekend. I didn't see another male - with a smile on his face. I don't have to go again for at least another six months, which is already beginning to trouble me :shock:

AiY :lol:


Back to sleep ... in Yorkshire, then. :)


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