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Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
pje16
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442198

Postby pje16 » September 14th, 2021, 2:50 pm

Julian wrote:
pje16 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:I thought that the idea was to give the booster in one arm, and the flu jab in the other, at a single session. If the NHS are short handed it might improve their productivity.

TJH

My GP was efficient last year, Flu in left arm, Pneumonia (worth getting as it lasts a lifetime) in the right arm (no after effects :lol: )


D'oh. I misread that at first and thought "What, you never recover? Pneumonia lingers for your whole life?". I now realise that you were talking about the efficacy of the vaccine, or at least I hope you were.

- Julian


I see my English wasn't the best there :oops:
I meants it's one jab that's good for life, although I was told some people (don't know why) need it every 5 years

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442207

Postby servodude » September 14th, 2021, 3:04 pm

Julian wrote:There's obviously (I assume!) no medical reason to administer a flu vaccine and a Covid-19 booster shot at the same time,


Depends on the definition of "at the same time"?

You don't need them administered in the same visit
But you want them active over the same period; both viruses spread in the same conditions, in the same way, most probably with similar seasonality ( once sars-cov2 settles down to be truly endemic)

While NPIs as a response to COVID all but eradicated flu last couple of seasons, with these being removed you'll see it come back; and I suspect there's going to be more of a push for flu vaccine coverage of the population in general than there has been in the past.
They really really don't want people catching both at the same time

So I'd say it's a bit of both logistically and medically motivated (but yeah.... probably mostly logistics ;) which makes great sense)

-sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442252

Postby swill453 » September 14th, 2021, 5:40 pm

As if 2021 wasn't bizarre enough, we have the Prime Minister at a press conference discussing the swollen testicles of US singer Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend...

Scott.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442255

Postby Julian » September 14th, 2021, 5:44 pm

servodude wrote:
Julian wrote:There's obviously (I assume!) no medical reason to administer a flu vaccine and a Covid-19 booster shot at the same time,


Depends on the definition of "at the same time"?

You don't need them administered in the same visit
But you want them active over the same period; both viruses spread in the same conditions, in the same way, most probably with similar seasonality ( once sars-cov2 settles down to be truly endemic)

While NPIs as a response to COVID all but eradicated flu last couple of seasons, with these being removed you'll see it come back; and I suspect there's going to be more of a push for flu vaccine coverage of the population in general than there has been in the past.
They really really don't want people catching both at the same time

So I'd say it's a bit of both logistically and medically motivated (but yeah.... probably mostly logistics ;) which makes great sense)

-sd

Indeed. I did mean "in the same visit" but it's a good point about the desirability of having people with active immunity to both flu and Covid-19 at the same time. Offering the convenience of getting both flu and C-19 in the same visit, assuming that is the plan shortly, could be beneficial in persuading more people who don't usually take up the flu vaccine (me being a case in point) to get it this year (and yes, I will be getting a flu jab for the first time this year).

Would this administer-in-one-visit convenience to entice more people to get both vaccines count as an example of what these policy wonks call a "nudge"?

- Julian

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442256

Postby Lootman » September 14th, 2021, 5:46 pm

Julian wrote: I did mean "in the same visit" but it's a good point about the desirability of having people with active immunity to both flu and Covid-19 at the same time. Offering the convenience of getting both flu and C-19 in the same visit, assuming that is the plan shortly, could be beneficial in persuading more people who don't usually take up the flu vaccine (me being a case in point) to get it this year (and yes, I will be getting a flu jab for the first time this year).

Would this administer-in-one-visit convenience to entice more people to get both vaccines count as an example of what these policy wonks call a "nudge"?

When I had my jabs I was asked if I had had another jab within the prior 2 weeks. That rather implies there is some risk to having two jabs close together. At least unless the specific combination has been tested together. Has it?

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442274

Postby AWOL » September 14th, 2021, 6:37 pm

swill453 wrote:
pje16 wrote:Unless they improve it, anymore spent on Track & Trace is a complete waste :roll:

"Track and Trace" isn't a thing. It's "Test and Trace". Tracking and Tracing are basically the same word.

(It's important and not pedantic, because as I pointed out above, it's the Test part that's used up the most money.)

EDIT: Just realised that I used "Track & Trace" myself in my post above, so it's easily done :-) apologies.)

Scott.


Track and Trace is a thing. Royal Mail has been offering it for years and it's very handy! https://services.royalmail.com/track-your-item#/

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442276

Postby AWOL » September 14th, 2021, 6:43 pm

Lootman wrote:
Julian wrote: I did mean "in the same visit" but it's a good point about the desirability of having people with active immunity to both flu and Covid-19 at the same time. Offering the convenience of getting both flu and C-19 in the same visit, assuming that is the plan shortly, could be beneficial in persuading more people who don't usually take up the flu vaccine (me being a case in point) to get it this year (and yes, I will be getting a flu jab for the first time this year).

Would this administer-in-one-visit convenience to entice more people to get both vaccines count as an example of what these policy wonks call a "nudge"?

When I had my jabs I was asked if I had had another jab within the prior 2 weeks. That rather implies there is some risk to having two jabs close together. At least unless the specific combination has been tested together. Has it?


Not sure but I have had multiple vaccines in a single visit at a "travel clinic" before visiting some of the remoter parts of emerging market countries. Was your vaccination in the early days when they had less data and were being very cautious with an emergency use authorized vaccine?

Personally my main concern is that my Flu vaccine would be delayed to late November if waiting 6 months after my second COVID jag.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442280

Postby Lootman » September 14th, 2021, 6:56 pm

AWOL wrote:
Lootman wrote:
Julian wrote: I did mean "in the same visit" but it's a good point about the desirability of having people with active immunity to both flu and Covid-19 at the same time. Offering the convenience of getting both flu and C-19 in the same visit, assuming that is the plan shortly, could be beneficial in persuading more people who don't usually take up the flu vaccine (me being a case in point) to get it this year (and yes, I will be getting a flu jab for the first time this year).

Would this administer-in-one-visit convenience to entice more people to get both vaccines count as an example of what these policy wonks call a "nudge"?

When I had my jabs I was asked if I had had another jab within the prior 2 weeks. That rather implies there is some risk to having two jabs close together. At least unless the specific combination has been tested together. Has it?

Was your vaccination in the early days when they had less data and were being very cautious with an emergency use authorized vaccine?

February, so early days I guess.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442306

Postby Julian » September 14th, 2021, 8:20 pm

Lootman wrote:
Julian wrote: I did mean "in the same visit" but it's a good point about the desirability of having people with active immunity to both flu and Covid-19 at the same time. Offering the convenience of getting both flu and C-19 in the same visit, assuming that is the plan shortly, could be beneficial in persuading more people who don't usually take up the flu vaccine (me being a case in point) to get it this year (and yes, I will be getting a flu jab for the first time this year).

Would this administer-in-one-visit convenience to entice more people to get both vaccines count as an example of what these policy wonks call a "nudge"?

When I had my jabs I was asked if I had had another jab within the prior 2 weeks. That rather implies there is some risk to having two jabs close together. At least unless the specific combination has been tested together. Has it?

Yes. Details of the trial started in April this year are here - https://fundingawards.nihr.ac.uk/award/NIHR203243

I believe that interim results from the trial above was one of the inputs to the government’s decision making process.

- Julian

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442377

Postby servodude » September 15th, 2021, 12:36 am

Julian wrote:
Would this administer-in-one-visit convenience to entice more people to get both vaccines count as an example of what these policy wonks call a "nudge"?


Well I do reckon that it's intended (at least in part) as a subtle manipulation of behaviour under the guise of a logistical convenience... so yup I think they'd consider it a "nudge" :)

- sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442417

Postby gryffron » September 15th, 2021, 10:14 am

Julian wrote:If doses of the flu jab were already coming on stream before the strategy for the C-19 boosters was announced then if currently unused vaccination stations are available to give the injection it makes sense in terms of efficiency to try and get as many flu jabs out of the way as possible hence it doesn't surprise me to hear people being contacted now solely to get a flu jab with no mention of a C-19 booster.

I know several elderly people who have already had their winter flu jab, and several others who should have had it but it was cancelled due to the much publicised delivery problems.

Of course, these would be the same people who would be first in line for a booster. So if the intention is to save money by double jabbing, they're already well behind the curve.

:roll:

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442444

Postby Julian » September 15th, 2021, 12:02 pm

gryffron wrote:
Julian wrote:If doses of the flu jab were already coming on stream before the strategy for the C-19 boosters was announced then if currently unused vaccination stations are available to give the injection it makes sense in terms of efficiency to try and get as many flu jabs out of the way as possible hence it doesn't surprise me to hear people being contacted now solely to get a flu jab with no mention of a C-19 booster.

I know several elderly people who have already had their winter flu jab, and several others who should have had it but it was cancelled due to the much publicised delivery problems.

Of course, these would be the same people who would be first in line for a booster. So if the intention is to save money by double jabbing, they're already well behind the curve.

:roll:

I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.

I'd guess that not too much potential both-at-once efficiency has been lost so far due to these early flu-vaccine-only appointments once one considers the size of the total everyone-over-50 cohort eligible for both vaccines. Yes, the government is probably a little bit behind the curve but it's not a disaster and also possibly unavoidable. HMG was waiting for the latest results of the Southampton COV-Boost study (https://www.covboost.org.uk/home) that I read were only made available privately to the decision makers mid/late last week.

As far as I can tell those most up to date COV-Boost results have not been made public yet. I hope they are made public fairly soon. I will take up the offer of a booster shot but it would bug me if, by the time my appointment came due, I knew that there was trial data on efficacy that had not been made public. I assume this is just a case of multiple reviews of the data & findings plus cleaning up the presentation before public release and that it will be in the public domain well before my earliest possible 20th November appointment. Israel should also have a lot more data from its booster efficacy study so I hope that there will be a lot of data by the time they get round to me and that it all continues to look as good as the early Israel data is looking.

- Julian

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442446

Postby pje16 » September 15th, 2021, 12:06 pm

Julian wrote:I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.
- Julian

I think where you are in the country plays a part in it too
I'm a year older than you, healthy, and my jabs were in Feb and April, and I just waited to be notified
that's NW London

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442451

Postby ursaminortaur » September 15th, 2021, 12:18 pm

pje16 wrote:
Julian wrote:I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.
- Julian

I think where you are in the country plays a part in it too
I'm a year older than you, healthy, and my jabs were in Feb and April, and I just waited to be notified
that's NW London


Same here in Herts I was healthy and 60 when I got my 2nd AZ jab on the 24th May and didn't have to use any loophole to get in early. My sister who lives in Ipswich Suffolk and is two years younger than me and perfectly healthy even managed to get her jabs a week earlier than me (again without making use of any loophole).

Just to add neither of us were working in priority jobs so didn't get jabs early because of that.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442458

Postby 1nvest » September 15th, 2021, 12:50 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
pje16 wrote:
Julian wrote:I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.
- Julian

I think where you are in the country plays a part in it too
I'm a year older than you, healthy, and my jabs were in Feb and April, and I just waited to be notified
that's NW London


Same here in Herts I was healthy and 60 when I got my 2nd AZ jab on the 24th May and didn't have to use any loophole to get in early. My sister who lives in Ipswich Suffolk and is two years younger than me and perfectly healthy even managed to get her jabs a week earlier than me (again without making use of any loophole).

Just to add neither of us were working in priority jobs so didn't get jabs early because of that.

Ditto, but a day later (25th May second AZ jab in a London SW18 church hall)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442860

Postby Lootman » September 16th, 2021, 11:48 pm

If this turns out to happen then it will be very good news for UK travellers:

1) Amber to be decommissioned. All countries will be either green or red. Number of red countries to be halved.

2) Double vaxxed travellers will not need quarantine nor a PCR test upon return to the UK from green nations.

3) Brits who were vaxxed overseas can get that recorded on their NHS records.

If the government does this then it would be effective from October 1st.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... avel-rules

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442942

Postby XFool » September 17th, 2021, 10:59 am

Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital

The Guardian

Heather Maddern and her daughter, Sammie-Jo Forde, were care workers and Maddern had shared conspiracy theories online

"An anti-vaxxer mother and her daughter died just days apart in a Belfast hospital after they contracted Covid-19, leaving their family “devastated”."

I have recently concluded that, in general, possession of a strong ideological belief system is pretty well guaranteed to lower a person's IQ by at least 99 points.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442953

Postby ursaminortaur » September 17th, 2021, 11:24 am

XFool wrote:Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital

The Guardian

Heather Maddern and her daughter, Sammie-Jo Forde, were care workers and Maddern had shared conspiracy theories online

"An anti-vaxxer mother and her daughter died just days apart in a Belfast hospital after they contracted Covid-19, leaving their family “devastated”."

I have recently concluded that, in general, possession of a strong ideological belief system is pretty well guaranteed to lower a person's IQ by at least 99 points.


As Larry Niven said about many self-destructive human traits "Think of it as Evolution in Action".

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442954

Postby servodude » September 17th, 2021, 11:27 am

ursaminortaur wrote:
XFool wrote:Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital

The Guardian

Heather Maddern and her daughter, Sammie-Jo Forde, were care workers and Maddern had shared conspiracy theories online

"An anti-vaxxer mother and her daughter died just days apart in a Belfast hospital after they contracted Covid-19, leaving their family “devastated”."

I have recently concluded that, in general, possession of a strong ideological belief system is pretty well guaranteed to lower a person's IQ by at least 99 points.


As Larry Niven said about many self-destructive human traits "Think of it as Evolution in Action".


Hey!
That's you guys just showing your own ideological biases
- just because they're built on the "scientific method" doesn't make them more... oh wait sorry
Yeah ok... As you were.

-sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443063

Postby 9873210 » September 17th, 2021, 3:49 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
As Larry Niven said about many self-destructive human traits "Think of it as Evolution in Action".


It depends what you mean by Evolution. But assuming you mean Darwinian Evolution or something similar ...

First. This is a dismal view. Hecatomb and almost unimaginable suffering come to mind.

Second. Something as benign as COVID-19 will have no significant effect on human genetics on the time scale of a human lifespan. Darwinian evolution requires far more deaths. Any evolution in humans will take many generations, probably millennia. It may however have effects on the virus.

Third. Culture. Not only does this allow inheritance of acquired characteristics, but it allows inheritance of characteristics acquired from unrelated individuals. The foundations of Darwinian evolution do not apply, a completely different framework is needed. When two forms of evolution work on vastly different time scales the faster one wins, at least over observable time scales and usually over all time scales.


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