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Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
servodude
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442377

Postby servodude » September 15th, 2021, 12:36 am

Julian wrote:
Would this administer-in-one-visit convenience to entice more people to get both vaccines count as an example of what these policy wonks call a "nudge"?


Well I do reckon that it's intended (at least in part) as a subtle manipulation of behaviour under the guise of a logistical convenience... so yup I think they'd consider it a "nudge" :)

- sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442417

Postby gryffron » September 15th, 2021, 10:14 am

Julian wrote:If doses of the flu jab were already coming on stream before the strategy for the C-19 boosters was announced then if currently unused vaccination stations are available to give the injection it makes sense in terms of efficiency to try and get as many flu jabs out of the way as possible hence it doesn't surprise me to hear people being contacted now solely to get a flu jab with no mention of a C-19 booster.

I know several elderly people who have already had their winter flu jab, and several others who should have had it but it was cancelled due to the much publicised delivery problems.

Of course, these would be the same people who would be first in line for a booster. So if the intention is to save money by double jabbing, they're already well behind the curve.

:roll:

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442444

Postby Julian » September 15th, 2021, 12:02 pm

gryffron wrote:
Julian wrote:If doses of the flu jab were already coming on stream before the strategy for the C-19 boosters was announced then if currently unused vaccination stations are available to give the injection it makes sense in terms of efficiency to try and get as many flu jabs out of the way as possible hence it doesn't surprise me to hear people being contacted now solely to get a flu jab with no mention of a C-19 booster.

I know several elderly people who have already had their winter flu jab, and several others who should have had it but it was cancelled due to the much publicised delivery problems.

Of course, these would be the same people who would be first in line for a booster. So if the intention is to save money by double jabbing, they're already well behind the curve.

:roll:

I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.

I'd guess that not too much potential both-at-once efficiency has been lost so far due to these early flu-vaccine-only appointments once one considers the size of the total everyone-over-50 cohort eligible for both vaccines. Yes, the government is probably a little bit behind the curve but it's not a disaster and also possibly unavoidable. HMG was waiting for the latest results of the Southampton COV-Boost study (https://www.covboost.org.uk/home) that I read were only made available privately to the decision makers mid/late last week.

As far as I can tell those most up to date COV-Boost results have not been made public yet. I hope they are made public fairly soon. I will take up the offer of a booster shot but it would bug me if, by the time my appointment came due, I knew that there was trial data on efficacy that had not been made public. I assume this is just a case of multiple reviews of the data & findings plus cleaning up the presentation before public release and that it will be in the public domain well before my earliest possible 20th November appointment. Israel should also have a lot more data from its booster efficacy study so I hope that there will be a lot of data by the time they get round to me and that it all continues to look as good as the early Israel data is looking.

- Julian

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442446

Postby pje16 » September 15th, 2021, 12:06 pm

Julian wrote:I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.
- Julian

I think where you are in the country plays a part in it too
I'm a year older than you, healthy, and my jabs were in Feb and April, and I just waited to be notified
that's NW London

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442451

Postby ursaminortaur » September 15th, 2021, 12:18 pm

pje16 wrote:
Julian wrote:I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.
- Julian

I think where you are in the country plays a part in it too
I'm a year older than you, healthy, and my jabs were in Feb and April, and I just waited to be notified
that's NW London


Same here in Herts I was healthy and 60 when I got my 2nd AZ jab on the 24th May and didn't have to use any loophole to get in early. My sister who lives in Ipswich Suffolk and is two years younger than me and perfectly healthy even managed to get her jabs a week earlier than me (again without making use of any loophole).

Just to add neither of us were working in priority jobs so didn't get jabs early because of that.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442458

Postby 1nvest » September 15th, 2021, 12:50 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
pje16 wrote:
Julian wrote:I think that with boosters now confirmed for all of the over 50s, and I think eligibility for the free flu jab is also being extended this year to also include all over 50s, there is still a huge cohort of people who could potentially get the one-in-each-arm treatment still to be processed. My 2nd AZ dose was on 20th May so I won't even be eligible for a booster until 20th November at the earliest. I, a healthy 61 year old at the time, exploited what might have been considered a loophole in the system to book my vaccinations slightly in advance of the official roll-out so I'm fairly early in the timings for my age group, other 60-65 year olds who waited for their GPs to contact them, let alone the 50-somethings, will have to wait longer until their 6-months-after-2nd-dose eligibility date arrives.
- Julian

I think where you are in the country plays a part in it too
I'm a year older than you, healthy, and my jabs were in Feb and April, and I just waited to be notified
that's NW London


Same here in Herts I was healthy and 60 when I got my 2nd AZ jab on the 24th May and didn't have to use any loophole to get in early. My sister who lives in Ipswich Suffolk and is two years younger than me and perfectly healthy even managed to get her jabs a week earlier than me (again without making use of any loophole).

Just to add neither of us were working in priority jobs so didn't get jabs early because of that.

Ditto, but a day later (25th May second AZ jab in a London SW18 church hall)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442860

Postby Lootman » September 16th, 2021, 11:48 pm

If this turns out to happen then it will be very good news for UK travellers:

1) Amber to be decommissioned. All countries will be either green or red. Number of red countries to be halved.

2) Double vaxxed travellers will not need quarantine nor a PCR test upon return to the UK from green nations.

3) Brits who were vaxxed overseas can get that recorded on their NHS records.

If the government does this then it would be effective from October 1st.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... avel-rules

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442942

Postby XFool » September 17th, 2021, 10:59 am

Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital

The Guardian

Heather Maddern and her daughter, Sammie-Jo Forde, were care workers and Maddern had shared conspiracy theories online

"An anti-vaxxer mother and her daughter died just days apart in a Belfast hospital after they contracted Covid-19, leaving their family “devastated”."

I have recently concluded that, in general, possession of a strong ideological belief system is pretty well guaranteed to lower a person's IQ by at least 99 points.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442953

Postby ursaminortaur » September 17th, 2021, 11:24 am

XFool wrote:Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital

The Guardian

Heather Maddern and her daughter, Sammie-Jo Forde, were care workers and Maddern had shared conspiracy theories online

"An anti-vaxxer mother and her daughter died just days apart in a Belfast hospital after they contracted Covid-19, leaving their family “devastated”."

I have recently concluded that, in general, possession of a strong ideological belief system is pretty well guaranteed to lower a person's IQ by at least 99 points.


As Larry Niven said about many self-destructive human traits "Think of it as Evolution in Action".

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#442954

Postby servodude » September 17th, 2021, 11:27 am

ursaminortaur wrote:
XFool wrote:Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital

The Guardian

Heather Maddern and her daughter, Sammie-Jo Forde, were care workers and Maddern had shared conspiracy theories online

"An anti-vaxxer mother and her daughter died just days apart in a Belfast hospital after they contracted Covid-19, leaving their family “devastated”."

I have recently concluded that, in general, possession of a strong ideological belief system is pretty well guaranteed to lower a person's IQ by at least 99 points.


As Larry Niven said about many self-destructive human traits "Think of it as Evolution in Action".


Hey!
That's you guys just showing your own ideological biases
- just because they're built on the "scientific method" doesn't make them more... oh wait sorry
Yeah ok... As you were.

-sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443063

Postby 9873210 » September 17th, 2021, 3:49 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
As Larry Niven said about many self-destructive human traits "Think of it as Evolution in Action".


It depends what you mean by Evolution. But assuming you mean Darwinian Evolution or something similar ...

First. This is a dismal view. Hecatomb and almost unimaginable suffering come to mind.

Second. Something as benign as COVID-19 will have no significant effect on human genetics on the time scale of a human lifespan. Darwinian evolution requires far more deaths. Any evolution in humans will take many generations, probably millennia. It may however have effects on the virus.

Third. Culture. Not only does this allow inheritance of acquired characteristics, but it allows inheritance of characteristics acquired from unrelated individuals. The foundations of Darwinian evolution do not apply, a completely different framework is needed. When two forms of evolution work on vastly different time scales the faster one wins, at least over observable time scales and usually over all time scales.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443069

Postby ursaminortaur » September 17th, 2021, 4:11 pm

9873210 wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
As Larry Niven said about many self-destructive human traits "Think of it as Evolution in Action".


It depends what you mean by Evolution. But assuming you mean Darwinian Evolution or something similar ...

First. This is a dismal view. Hecatomb and almost unimaginable suffering come to mind.

Second. Something as benign as COVID-19 will have no significant effect on human genetics on the time scale of a human lifespan. Darwinian evolution requires far more deaths. Any evolution in humans will take many generations, probably millennia. It may however have effects on the virus.

Third. Culture. Not only does this allow inheritance of acquired characteristics, but it allows inheritance of characteristics acquired from unrelated individuals. The foundations of Darwinian evolution do not apply, a completely different framework is needed. When two forms of evolution work on vastly different time scales the faster one wins, at least over observable time scales and usually over all time scales.


The idea is that certain behaviours lead to removing oneself from the gene pool. In this case anti-vaxxers refusing to take Covid vaccines increases their chances of dying from Covid. The same idea is behind the Darwin Awards.

https://darwinawards.com/rules/

In the spirit of Charles Darwin, the Darwin Awards commemorate individuals who protect our gene pool by making the ultimate sacrifice of their own lives. Darwin Award winners eliminate themselves in an extraordinarily idiotic manner, thereby improving our species' chances of long-term survival.
.
.
.
Named in honor of Charles Darwin, the father of evolution, the Darwin Awards represent examples of evolution in action by showing what happens to people who are unable to cope with the basic dangers of the modern world. These ironic tales of fatal misadventure illustrate some of life's most important lessons.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443191

Postby XFool » September 17th, 2021, 10:52 pm

Some familiar old names getting a mention! :

Covid-19 and the new merchants of doubt

BMJ

How best can scientists push back against science denialist campaigns? David Gorski and Gavin Yamey suggest some evidence based strategies

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443290

Postby redsturgeon » September 18th, 2021, 12:27 pm

XFool wrote:Some familiar old names getting a mention! :

Covid-19 and the new merchants of doubt

BMJ

How best can scientists push back against science denialist campaigns? David Gorski and Gavin Yamey suggest some evidence based strategies


As always, "follow the money", remains a useful maxim.

John

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443334

Postby 9873210 » September 18th, 2021, 4:16 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:The idea is that certain behaviours lead to removing oneself from the gene pool. In this case anti-vaxxers refusing to take Covid vaccines increases their chances of dying from Covid. The same idea is behind the Darwin Awards.

https://darwinawards.com/rules/

In the spirit of Charles Darwin, the Darwin Awards commemorate individuals who protect our gene pool by making the ultimate sacrifice of their own lives. Darwin Award winners eliminate themselves in an extraordinarily idiotic manner, thereby improving our species' chances of long-term survival.

The behaviour of anti-vaxers is not hereditary, so has nothing to do with evolution. They will not go away by all dyeing. They may go away because some of them change their minds and the rest find that their ideas no longer have an echo chamber.

The Darwin awards are not in the spirit of Charles and do not honour him or the theory of evolution. They would be better named after one of the less salubrious eugenicists.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443344

Postby CryptoPlankton » September 18th, 2021, 4:57 pm

9873210 wrote:The behaviour of anti-vaxers is not hereditary, so has nothing to do with evolution. They will not go away by all dyeing...

Maybe just further stain their reputation? ;)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443351

Postby Bouleversee » September 18th, 2021, 5:28 pm

X-fool said:

"I have recently concluded that, in general, possession of a strong ideological belief system is pretty well guaranteed to lower a person's IQ by at least 99 points."

Not the other way round?

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443357

Postby 88V8 » September 18th, 2021, 5:44 pm

From the trivia columns, it is said that two of the professional dancers on Strictly have refused vaccination, and their 'celebrities' have refused to partner them.
Consternation....

Good....

V8

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443358

Postby Bouleversee » September 18th, 2021, 5:45 pm

I had my 2nd Pfizer jab in March and am due to have a flu jab on 6 October at my local Lloyds pharmacy, at their invitation. Although pretty ancient and clinically highly vulnerable, I have heard nothing from the practice or NHS about a booster. I never hear from them about flu jabs either and have to paddle my own canoe. Whether Lloyds offers the Pfizer booster remains to be seen.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#443360

Postby Bouleversee » September 18th, 2021, 5:51 pm

I heard on the radio this morning that none of the patients suffering from Covid in an ICU in one hospital (I think it may have been in Ireland) had been jabbed and a very high percentage in the Covid ward likewise. You would think the message would have got through to the anti-vaxers by now.


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