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Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
9873210
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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461500

Postby 9873210 » November 28th, 2021, 12:28 am

Mike4 wrote:On another forum I frequent, there has just been a long and bad tempered debate about whether a zinc anti-corrosion product applied with a paint brush is 'paint', or 'definitely not paint'.

Jeez, this internet thing.


It's not just the internet.

In real life I occasionally witness long and bad tempered debates about whether the law of excluded middle is valid, or not, or not not.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461502

Postby XFool » November 28th, 2021, 12:45 am

onthemove wrote:
staffordian wrote:Wear a face mask now or face a lock down later.

No brainer IMHO. Given that the government have a history of reacting too late during this epidemic, I'm very happy to see them go for a minor inconvenience now, regardless of how the Omicron eventually plays out.

Utter nonsense. People are just getting too swept up with covid hysteria.

What is "covid hysteria"? If wet and stormy weather was predicted and I wrapped up warm and wore a raincoat outdoors, would I be suffering from "weather hysteria"?

onthemove wrote:Why do you declare that it's a binary choice between face mask now or lockdown later? What are you basing that on?

It's highly infectious?

Anyway, thanks for helping me prove how all those people who tell me I'm wrong when I say many people seem not to understand the 'meaning' of the word "infectious", are indeed wrong. :)

onthemove wrote:There's no reason to presume that there would have been a lockdown later.

I suppose we could all throw away our masks and find out...

onthemove wrote:Cases have largely gone sideways the past few months, and that's with most people largely back to normal.

I reckon I've heard the cry: "It's all over now. Back to normal!" at least as many times as we've had waves of coronavirus. Wonder if that's a coincidence?

There's a pandemic on, you know!

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461503

Postby servodude » November 28th, 2021, 1:04 am

9873210 wrote:
Mike4 wrote:On another forum I frequent, there has just been a long and bad tempered debate about whether a zinc anti-corrosion product applied with a paint brush is 'paint', or 'definitely not paint'.

Jeez, this internet thing.


It's not just the internet.

In real life I occasionally witness long and bad tempered debates about whether the law of excluded middle is valid, or not, or not not.


Well can you count how many legs your dog has got and tell me that it doesn't look like a cat from the data? Huh?

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461505

Postby onthemove » November 28th, 2021, 1:21 am

XFool wrote:What is "covid hysteria"? If wet and stormy weather was predicted and I wrapped up warm and wore a raincoat outdoors, would I be suffering from "weather hysteria"?


Your analogy is flawed. Where is the prediction of a 'covid storm' coming from?

Even the government advisor has been reported as saying it's the delta variant they are concerned about, not the new variant.

But as I have repeatedly pointed out, the cases of the delta variant have been going largely sideways for the past few months - they are still below the level of cases back in July when the mandatory mask wearing was dropped.

The mandate to wear masks now is more akin to going outside on a reasonably nice summers day and seeing a nice fluffy cumulous cloud over on the horizon, and immediately rushing straight back home to wrap up warm and wear a rain coat. Yes, I would consider that hysteria / paranoia.

XFool wrote:It's highly infectious?
Anyway, thanks for helping me prove how all those people who tell me I'm wrong when I say many people seem not to understand the 'meaning' of the word "infectious", are indeed wrong. :)


You keep repeating this, but it makes no sense. You seem to refuse to explain what you mean by it. At least I've not seen any explanation.

I've already given you on a previous thread a logical explanation (using formal logic) of why your comment about it being infectious is logically inconsistent with our normal approach to 'infectious' diseases, but you haven't yet as far as I've seen given any explanation as to why this infectious disease is different to other infectious diseases that we treat differently.

As such I can but guess at what you are referring to. Perhaps it's the R number, and a case of premature extrapolation?

I mean, the R number everybody loves to point out is supposedly 'exponential'.

Except strictly speaking it isn't. There are only a finite number of people in the country. This puts a cap on the exponential. So strictly speaking it's only exponential in the early part of the curve.

And with most of the country now vaccinated, so protected against severe illness and death, that also changes the landscape. It puts us outside of the place where the R can be simply described as 'exponential'.

Just jumping up and down saying it's 'infectious' and moaning that people don't understand what it means... well, let's just say, if you don't provide any explanation, more and more some of us are beginning to wonder whether you yourself fully understand it.

Or whether by just repeating that it's "infectious" without explaining what you are trying to say by that, and then just claiming people are being thick for not understanding, are you perhaps just trolling?

XFool wrote:I reckon I've heard the cry: "It's all over now. Back to normal!" at least as many times as we've had waves of coronavirus. Wonder if that's a coincidence?


A few weeks before Christmas and all of a sudden there's another variant of concern supposedly hitting the deadlines. Kind of like deja vu from last year. What a coincidence.

And this variant of concern is with only 50 proven cases at the time. And now the governments advisor saying, but the delta variant is the main concern before christmas, not the new variant. But look at the figures, the delta variant is quite 'stable' now.

Even the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine seem to recognise that there isn't much scope for additional problems from the delta variant...

"England would only suffer 35,000 Covid hospital admissions if EVERYONE caught virus right now because of previous immunity and jabs, study suggests
London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine researchers estimated the remaining hospitalisation toll
They say England would suffer another 35,000 admissions if everyone came into contact with the virus
It was the lowest rate of hospitalisation in Europe because of immunity from prior infection and boosters
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... gests.html "


So why is the governments advisor saying the delta is currently the variant of concern before christmas?

In all the articles that I've seen about the new variant, the one thing that I haven't seen yet - and I've specifically been looking for it - is whether there is any evidence to believe that this variant is likely to be more deadly... and if so, in what situations.

For example, is it more deadly to unvaccinated people who have never had covid so far?

Does it reduce vaccine efficacy against serious illness and death? If so, to what extent?

Is it as deadly to people have have actually had a previous variant already? We know that in the first wave, some people are believed to have had some protection from pre-pandemic coronavirus infections (tests on blood samples taken prior to the pandemic have shown some people's blood already recognises sars-cov-2). We also know that the immune system generates a broader response from actually encountering the virus compared to getting the vaccine. If the new variant turns out to be many times more deadly, then it could quite conceivably be the case that prior infection with an earlier strain might actually turn out to be the best defence against the new variant.

But like I say, it's actually unclear whether the new variant is the reason the government are introducing face masks. The various things I'm hearing from the government and the advisors don't seem to fit together in a coherent picture.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461510

Postby Dod101 » November 28th, 2021, 7:24 am

I can see no hardship in wearing mask in shops and on public transport. The government is not perfect, far from it, but Boris was blamed for getting it wrong in the early days by not doing enough and now from some like onthmove, they are being blamed for acting in good time (we all hope)

In Scotland we have been required to continue wearing masks in shops and public transport. It is no hardship although I would rather not have to but I would rather do that than have Covid. By coincidence or otherwise our numbers in Scotland are stable if not falling somewhat.

onthemove really ought to get something better to worry about and he should, whatever, modify his language. He does not seem to realise how boorish he sounds.

Dod

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461511

Postby UncleEbenezer » November 28th, 2021, 7:38 am

servodude wrote:
9873210 wrote:
Mike4 wrote:On another forum I frequent, there has just been a long and bad tempered debate about whether a zinc anti-corrosion product applied with a paint brush is 'paint', or 'definitely not paint'.

Jeez, this internet thing.

It's not just the internet.

In real life I occasionally witness long and bad tempered debates about whether the law of excluded middle is valid, or not, or not not.


:lol:

Ahem. Paintless arguments about how many angels can dance on this pinhead go back a long way.

Well can you count how many legs your dog has got and tell me that it doesn't look like a cat from the data? Huh?


Two forelegs making eight, plus two hindlegs making ten altogether.

'scuse my focus on the second half of the thread title.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461512

Postby Mike4 » November 28th, 2021, 7:41 am

onthemove wrote:I really object to people telling me that it's no hardship to wear a face mask.

Why the hell can't they just speak for themselves instead of trying to tell others that it's no hardship for them.

I'll be the judge of whether or not it's a hardship for me.



Firstly, YOU wearing a mask is to protect ME from YOUR germs, not the other way around. I wear my mask to protect YOU so I'd be obliged if you'll reciprocate and wear yours in crowded public places please.

I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare but that does not alter the function of mask wearing.

Secondly I'm curious about the details of why you find wearing a mask such an insurmountable hardship. I find a mask trivially easy to wear, as do most (but not all) people. When I leave the supermarket I actually forget I'm wearing it and walk across the car park and drive off as I see many other supermarket customers do too, so they demonstrably hardly trouble many people. Could you expand on exactly what difficulty you experience wearing one please?

Much obliged.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461513

Postby servodude » November 28th, 2021, 8:01 am

Mike4 wrote:YOU wearing a mask is to protect ME from YOUR germs


Not from their point of view though.
It happens by accident; even the ones that "dicknose" with it only over their mouths are mostly capturing what they breathe out (and rendering their mask of no personal protection)

God knows what they'll do if they start making it compulsory to be sober when you drive

-sd

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461516

Postby MrFoolish » November 28th, 2021, 8:28 am

Will those of you who strongly believe in a mask mandate still be going into pubs or restaurants? Will you be visiting friends and family you don't normally live with?

Not trick questions as I struggle with these things myself.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461517

Postby servodude » November 28th, 2021, 8:32 am

MrFoolish wrote:Will those of you who strongly believe in a mask mandate still be going into pubs or restaurants? Will you be visiting friends and family you don't normally live with?

Not trick questions as I struggle with these things myself.


I posted about this on another thread recently (I'll be back if I can find the link EDIT: here I hope https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=459948#p459948)
- but basically it's not a binary thing and every little helps; make your decisions based on what you're doing

-sd

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461518

Postby MrFoolish » November 28th, 2021, 8:40 am

servodude wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:Will those of you who strongly believe in a mask mandate still be going into pubs or restaurants? Will you be visiting friends and family you don't normally live with?

Not trick questions as I struggle with these things myself.


I posted about this on another thread recently (I'll be back if I can find the link EDIT: here I hope https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=459948#p459948)
- but basically it's not a binary thing and every little helps; make your decisions based on what you're doing

-sd


It's not answering my question either.

If those lambasting onethemove for not wishing to wear a mask in the supermarket are themselves sitting for an hour maskless in a restaurant - then I think they might explain their reasons.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461519

Postby servodude » November 28th, 2021, 8:41 am

MrFoolish wrote:
servodude wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:Will those of you who strongly believe in a mask mandate still be going into pubs or restaurants? Will you be visiting friends and family you don't normally live with?

Not trick questions as I struggle with these things myself.


I posted about this on another thread recently (I'll be back if I can find the link EDIT: here I hope https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=459948#p459948)
- but basically it's not a binary thing and every little helps; make your decisions based on what you're doing

-sd


It's not answering my question either.

If those lambasting onethemove for not wishing to wear a mask in the supermarket are themselves sitting for an hour maskless in a restaurant - then I think they might explain their reasons.


Are they lambasting him for that?
Or for being a whinger?
There are different risk potentials in every circumstance and mandates help increase compliance and benefit - even if "coverage" ain't 100%

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461526

Postby Dod101 » November 28th, 2021, 8:57 am

MrFoolish wrote:
servodude wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:Will those of you who strongly believe in a mask mandate still be going into pubs or restaurants? Will you be visiting friends and family you don't normally live with?

Not trick questions as I struggle with these things myself.


I posted about this on another thread recently (I'll be back if I can find the link EDIT: here I hope https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=459948#p459948)
- but basically it's not a binary thing and every little helps; make your decisions based on what you're doing

-sd


It's not answering my question either.

If those lambasting onethemove for not wishing to wear a mask in the supermarket are themselves sitting for an hour maskless in a restaurant - then I think they might explain their reasons.


I think the broad answer has to be that in a restaurant for instance, there is little chance of bumping into a stranger or even approaching a stranger to within a couple of feet. Those sharing your table are the most likely to be the ones whose breath you may inhale. Presumably you know them well enough to be aware of the likely risk, but it is not perfect. In a restaurant you will be static for the hour or two you are there and for the most part, tables are quite well spread out. Servers wear masks. I have not been in a pub for years so cannot comment.

Dod

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461527

Postby bungeejumper » November 28th, 2021, 8:59 am

MrFoolish wrote:Will those of you who strongly believe in a mask mandate still be going into pubs or restaurants? Will you be visiting friends and family you don't normally live with?

Well, I'm not going into pubs or restaurants at the moment at the moment, so I doubt that my two penceworth is worth very much. :| Wiltshire has one of the worst covid infection rates in the country at the moment**, so it isn't particularly worth the risk around these parts, unless the pub really is your entire social life. (As it is with one of our neighbours.) But then, I don't have a highly trained palate either, so restaurants are also fairly low on my priority list. Some folk feel otherwise. :)

What do do about visiting friends and family? It seems to me that Maslow's hierarchy of needs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_ ... y_of_needs) provides a useful analogy. The three first levels on my own social pyramid would be immediate family, best (sensibly living!) friends, and then good neighbours on whom we all tend to depend in these rural parts. For other Fools, work contacts might just edge ahead of the neighbours?

BJ

**At the risk of sidetracking, the covid-by-area map (https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... -map/cases) convincingly shows that Wiltshire's very high covid incidence is almost exclusively focused around the army camps. (Amesbury, Downton, Mere, Salisbury and Tisbury.) Take fifteen thousand squaddies, freshly back for every corner of the globe, pack them into close confinement with each other, and then send them out every night into the boozers and the brothels, and you've got a pretty good petri dish there. Areas like ours, where the incidence per 100,000 is below 200, can only mask up and hope for the best. :(

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461529

Postby redsturgeon » November 28th, 2021, 9:04 am

MrFoolish wrote:Will those of you who strongly believe in a mask mandate still be going into pubs or restaurants? Will you be visiting friends and family you don't normally live with?

Not trick questions as I struggle with these things myself.


No and no until we find out more about omicron.

John

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461530

Postby MrFoolish » November 28th, 2021, 9:04 am

Dod101 wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:
servodude wrote:
I posted about this on another thread recently (I'll be back if I can find the link EDIT: here I hope https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=459948#p459948)
- but basically it's not a binary thing and every little helps; make your decisions based on what you're doing

-sd


It's not answering my question either.

If those lambasting onethemove for not wishing to wear a mask in the supermarket are themselves sitting for an hour maskless in a restaurant - then I think they might explain their reasons.


I think the broad answer has to be that in a restaurant for instance, there is little chance of bumping into a stranger or even approaching a stranger to within a couple of feet. Those sharing your table are the most likely to be the ones whose breath you may inhale. Presumably you know them well enough to be aware of the likely risk, but it is not perfect. In a restaurant you will be static for the hour or two you are there and for the most part, tables are quite well spread out. Servers wear masks. I have not been in a pub for years so cannot comment.

Dod


Most of the restaurants I frequent (curry houses mostly) the tables are no more than a few feet apart. The ceilings are low and the air must be pretty static. I would say these places must have a significantly higher infection risk than a supermarket where I'm never near another individual for more than a minute max.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461536

Postby Midsmartin » November 28th, 2021, 9:27 am

Surely the point about the brand new Omicron variant is that we simply don't know how dangerous it is.

Genetic evidence says it's sufficiently different that there's a chance it might behave differently, or the vaccine might be less effective. Somewhat anecdotal data from Africa says it spreads fast but does not cause more serious disease.

It seems sensible to take measures to slow its spread while we find out whether or not it's a problem.
There is real data that says masks probably have a modest effect to slow spread, if worn properly.

Wearing a mask in a shop is utterly painless and easy. I don't see the problem. It's a matter of empathy and compassion for others you are protecting a little. The best case is that you save a life. The worst case if they don't work is that your glasses mist up a bit.

We live in a society not as solitary creatures. we do better by acting for the good of all, not just selfishly in the moment.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461537

Postby Dod101 » November 28th, 2021, 9:30 am

MrFoolish wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:
It's not answering my question either.

If those lambasting onethemove for not wishing to wear a mask in the supermarket are themselves sitting for an hour maskless in a restaurant - then I think they might explain their reasons.


I think the broad answer has to be that in a restaurant for instance, there is little chance of bumping into a stranger or even approaching a stranger to within a couple of feet. Those sharing your table are the most likely to be the ones whose breath you may inhale. Presumably you know them well enough to be aware of the likely risk, but it is not perfect. In a restaurant you will be static for the hour or two you are there and for the most part, tables are quite well spread out. Servers wear masks. I have not been in a pub for years so cannot comment.

Dod


Most of the restaurants I frequent (curry houses mostly) the tables are no more than a few feet apart. The ceilings are low and the air must be pretty static. I would say these places must have a significantly higher infection risk than a supermarket where I'm never near another individual for more than a minute max.


I agree re supermarkets although I have a habit of frequenting them only between about 8 and 9.30 am, a habit I acquired early on during the first lockdown. Generally very quite but I have been in to a Tesco on a weekend afternoon and they can be very busy. We frequent different types of restaurants!

Dod

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461545

Postby servodude » November 28th, 2021, 10:07 am

Dod101 wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
I think the broad answer has to be that in a restaurant for instance, there is little chance of bumping into a stranger or even approaching a stranger to within a couple of feet. Those sharing your table are the most likely to be the ones whose breath you may inhale. Presumably you know them well enough to be aware of the likely risk, but it is not perfect. In a restaurant you will be static for the hour or two you are there and for the most part, tables are quite well spread out. Servers wear masks. I have not been in a pub for years so cannot comment.

Dod


Most of the restaurants I frequent (curry houses mostly) the tables are no more than a few feet apart. The ceilings are low and the air must be pretty static. I would say these places must have a significantly higher infection risk than a supermarket where I'm never near another individual for more than a minute max.


I agree re supermarkets although I have a habit of frequenting them only between about 8 and 9.30 am, a habit I acquired early on during the first lockdown. Generally very quite but I have been in to a Tesco on a weekend afternoon and they can be very busy. We frequent different types of restaurants!

Dod


One of the (misplaced and oblique) points I was trying to make in the post of mine I'd linked to is that mandates/laws/guidelines around this stuff are NOT really that concerned about the influence on instance but the effect in general.

At various times to throughout this thing we've been asked to do various behaviours that don't make sense in viewed from one angle
But masks removed at a premises where you might be required to check in could quickly become useful if there were a surprise new variant for track and trace purposes?!

-sd

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461551

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » November 28th, 2021, 10:42 am

My Mum was diagnosed with breast cancer a week after the first lockdown. That's been managed well. However, she was also diagnosed with primary lung cancer late last year. She couldn't have chemotherapy because of lockdown.

Mum's lung cancer was aggressive. Mum is in her last days of life.

If I'm asked to wear a mask in a shop even when not mandatory I do. I've no objections to wearing a mask when instructed by government. It's the right thing to do.

Understanding covid and its variants cannot be viewed as a binary argument as to whether or not wearing a mask is needed. A simple risk assessment suggests that whilst the experts are out on the subject, and they are, we should assume the worst and let's put our masks on.

If we want to live in a society that respects each other, a society that doesn't feel that their liberties are being removed because the science is wrong, when it's clear the science hasn't had time to be completely understood, then wearing a mask isn't a hardship.

If we are not happy or content with a government that instructs us to wear a mask we have choices

  1. We can leave the country
  2. We can self isolate, or bubble isolate with our family
  3. We can wait for the next election and vote government out
Many of us haven't survived to have those options

AiY


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