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England to surpass Wales again

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
stevensfo
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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462633

Postby stevensfo » December 2nd, 2021, 2:06 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:
Lootman wrote:I have wondered myself whether masks might paradoxically increase infections. If the mask is providing any protection at all then the virus must accumulate on either the inside or the outside of the mask, or both. Then people keep touching them, removing them and putting them back on, placing them on the pub or restaurant table, putting their hands here and there, and so on.

So could face coverings actually be powerful vectors for the virus, which otherwise would just dissipate in the atmosphere, fall to the ground and die off?

Professional medical staff know how to handle masks, how often to change them, and so on. But I am fairly certain people wear the same face covering for days at a time, maybe weeks at a time, coughing into them, sneezing into them. It's kind of disgusting when you think about it, like using the same cloth handkerchief for days when you have a cold.


Not this again. No, there is pretty overwhelming evidence that masks are a massive net positive - this is an airborne disease, you need to worry about it getting into your lungs not a handful of virus particles getting onto your hands. Have a read of this thread :

https://twitter.com/trishgreenhalgh/sta ... 3479089154

and for something more formal :
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html

Image


We did a very similar experiment in our A-level Biology class to show how washing your hands makes a huge difference.

I'm not quite sure why the agar in the petri dishes is red, rather than the customary brown. Though maybe they added hemoglobin to more closely match a human organ.

Wear the bloody masks, keep your distance and wash your hands! None of this is exactly new to us.

Steve

PS I can't get Viz where I live, so reading some of the comments is really great fun. Keep 'em coming! Covid is caused by dirty toilet seats or a plot by the Illuminati? :lol:

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462641

Postby Julian » December 2nd, 2021, 2:23 pm

I suspect that it might be a bit too early to judge the peak level of compliance to mask wearing. This might not be an an instantaneous on/off switch. My personal observations when the mask-wearing mandate was removed in England (July 4th?) was that the level of mask wearing in supermarkets and other places didn't suddenly shift to a reasonably stable post-mandate level of compliance, rather the percentage of people wearing masks in various settings declined gradually over time.

My speculation was that this gradual decline was down to peer pressure. The most determined anti-maskers hadn't been obeying the mandate anyway and post-mandate mask wearing eroded gradually for other people spread across the "definitely not" - "maybe" - "I'll definitely keep wearing" spectrum as individuals made personal decisions to stop wearing a mask when the percentage of other people not wearing masks in a particular setting fell to a level where that person's personal threshold re peer pressure influence made them uncomfortable - "well, there are a significant number of people in here now wearing a mask and I'm becoming an uncomfortably small (to me) minority in here by not wearing one so maybe I will go back to mask-wearing at least while most others seem to be doing so".

Just speculation but if I'm right then maybe we might see compliance drift up somewhat between now and Christmas.

My theory isn't testable because I can think of at least one big confounding factor that might work in the other direction. I'm sure that right now there are lots of Omicron sceptics to varying degrees, I'm actually one of them(*), so if data does start coming in that Omicron is not as scary as some of the scare stories are suggesting, that might create a "this isn't necessary" counter-force for some people. I am happy to wear a mask out of personal choice right now, mandate or no mandate, on the basis that at the moment we really don't have the data to make any sort of judgement about how serious Omicron is and I personally don't find it a significant inconvenience. If data does start coming in that indicates that the concerns are overblown then like onthemove I am pretty "OCD about sticking to rules" (his wording) so I would continue to wear a mask while a mandate is in place but I would maybe be doing so with just a tinge of frustration at that point. At some point we do need to get back to normal which includes not wearing masks.

- Julian

(*) I don't deny that Omicron exists, or that it might be a serious or even extremely serious new development in this pandemic, I just get a bit frustrated at what I perceive as a tendency in the media reporting towards the darker outcomes when we really do not have enough data to know whether things are likely to head in that direction. There is still the distinct possibility of an upside outcome whereby disease severity is reduced vs Delta and vaccine escape, particularly for severe disease, hospitalisations and death, is not particularly significant. We really just don't know that stuff right now and anyone making calls either way right now is guessing.

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462643

Postby Julian » December 2nd, 2021, 2:25 pm

stevensfo wrote:...
PS I can't get Viz where I live, so reading some of the comments is really great fun. Keep 'em coming! Covid is caused by dirty toilet seats or a plot by the Illuminati? :lol:

Don't forget the lizard people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian ... acy_theory). SARS-CoV2 doesn't infect lizards does it? I leave you to draw your own conclusions but ....

- Julian

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462647

Postby Hallucigenia » December 2nd, 2021, 2:36 pm

stevensfo wrote:I'm not quite sure why the agar in the petri dishes is red, rather than the customary brown. Though maybe they added hemoglobin to more closely match a human organ.


I'd guess it's sheep blood agar, which is often used for growing human bugs.

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462663

Postby XFool » December 2nd, 2021, 3:33 pm

onthemove wrote:Went to Tesco for the first time since the mask rule change last night.

Seeing the number of people without masks, it's fair to say this was likely replicated in other supermarkets around the area. And let's get real, there wasn't a policeman in sight dishing out fines.

Did you really expect there would be? Was there during 2020? Come to that, when was the last time you saw a policeman in a supermarket or walking along a street?

onthemove wrote:Now you can jump up and down and get hysterical about 'evidence' and about 'respect', but at the end of the day, you need people's support to combat a pandemic.

Some of you may already have guessed from my earlier posts that I really object to wearing a mask, and am very angry at this moment (bearing in mind the relatively stable infection rates) that the mandate has been re-imposed, but I'm also somewhat rather OCD about sticking to rules.

Would it right to point out it sounds as if it is you who is jumping up and down or getting "hysterical" about all this. I'm not.

onthemove wrote:And p*ss*d off at being made to wear a mask, I decided not to bother now using the hand sanitizer on entry to the supermarket this time - ironically I couldn't help notice previously that the majority of those wearing masks prior to this mandate just walked straight past the hand sanitizer and didn't bother with it.

So what exactly IS the great problem with wearing a mask?

onthemove wrote:My visit to the supermarket last night, showed me that a good proportion (I didn't count, but estimate somewhere in the region of 25 to 35%) of people are clearly not happy about being forced to wear a mask - so much so that they were now prepared to risk a fine rather than comply.

And the fact that there was no police presence there to fine them, really does emphasize more than ever that you're not going to combat covid by coercion - it's abundantly clear that you need people to be onboard with efforts. And you ain't going to get people on board through coercion.

I do agree it is much better to have everyone "on board", as we did seem to have at the start of all this.

onthemove wrote:It hasn't escaped even the normally covid hysterical guardian just how politically convenient the latest variant has been for Boris...

What better way than to distract the country by reintroducing mandatory mask wearing to instill the fear of a new variant into everyone, to divert their attention.

I don't see how the Guardian is "covid hysterical", or indeed what that even means. Increasingly, as I see it, the hysteria is coming from the various factions of antis and deniers.

It has occurred to me that one political angle might be that our government acted so promptly this time because Boris doesn't want to risk being 'The Grinch that stole two Christmases'.

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462683

Postby XFool » December 2nd, 2021, 4:13 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
onthemove wrote:Went to Tesco for the first time since the mask rule change last night.

Quite interesting how many were not wearing masks this time. Far more than when masks were made compulsory last year.

Widespread non-compliance might nullify my prediction. But having already posted it, I shall stick my neck out and stick by it.

I'd just like to point out (possibly mischievously) that we have perhaps already had one (un)controlled experiment. Was not the very low level of influenza cases last winter at least consistent with the wearing of masks, due to the COVID pandemic?

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462695

Postby dealtn » December 2nd, 2021, 4:38 pm

XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
onthemove wrote:Went to Tesco for the first time since the mask rule change last night.

Quite interesting how many were not wearing masks this time. Far more than when masks were made compulsory last year.

Widespread non-compliance might nullify my prediction. But having already posted it, I shall stick my neck out and stick by it.

I'd just like to point out (possibly mischievously) that we have perhaps already had one (un)controlled experiment. Was not the very low level of influenza cases last winter at least consistent with the wearing of masks, due to the COVID pandemic?


Yes. Concurrent with other measures.

It may also be consistent with less healthy and active immune systems. It's complicated, like much else (yet some seem to rely on some singular undeniable "truth" and the many not accepting that in its entirety are therefore a member of one of the "denier" factions).

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462710

Postby XFool » December 2nd, 2021, 5:45 pm

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Widespread non-compliance might nullify my prediction. But having already posted it, I shall stick my neck out and stick by it.

I'd just like to point out (possibly mischievously) that we have perhaps already had one (un)controlled experiment. Was not the very low level of influenza cases last winter at least consistent with the wearing of masks, due to the COVID pandemic?

Yes. Concurrent with other measures.

It may also be consistent with less healthy and active immune systems.

Not sure I follow that! *

dealtn wrote:It's complicated, like much else (yet some seem to rely on some singular undeniable "truth" and the many not accepting that in its entirety are therefore a member of one of the "denier" factions).

Perhaps you should have a word with them? ;)

* I think I may know what you may mean. But I also think you didn't mean to mean that...

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462792

Postby servodude » December 3rd, 2021, 2:55 am

XFool wrote:
onthemove wrote:My visit to the supermarket last night, showed me that a good proportion (I didn't count, but estimate somewhere in the region of 25 to 35%) of people are clearly not happy about being forced to wear a mask - so much so that they were now prepared to risk a fine rather than comply.
And the fact that there was no police presence there to fine them, really does emphasize more than ever that you're not going to combat covid by coercion - it's abundantly clear that you need people to be onboard with efforts. And you ain't going to get people on board through coercion.


I do agree it is much better to have everyone "on board", as we did seem to have at the start of all this.

It has occurred to me that one political angle might be that our government acted so promptly this time because Boris doesn't want to risk being 'The Grinch that stole two Christmases'.


Well it sounds like the message is getting across; it's really good to see that some people are prepared to the the right thing even if they are a bit aggrieved by being required to
- that's progress and everyone that's in that position should be heartily thanked
- it really is what we need at this point

This point.. what do i mean by that?

Well this thing appears endemic now (for the time being anyway) but I can't see immediate life being a case of "it's endemic now we go back to normal" it's more a case of "it's endemic now how do we cope with it?"

With weather worsening (in the UK anyway), holidays coming up and (as yet unqualified) variants appearing it would seem worth trying to put the brakes on a bit... so that you don't find yourself short of health care resoures in the short term (in the longer term please just build more capacity and stop pretending that 100% is a safe operating point for a critical system!)

At a personal level that will improve my parents' chances of getting through the next couple of years
- after three jabs COVID is much more likely to affect anyone in their 70s indirectly by denying them access to health care for "other stuff" over a winter (probably a discussion for another thread though)
Now masks might not be the difference there but they will be a difference and can only really help
- and are certainly one of the few things that can be done immediately without impinging on much else

I reckon that's worth a bit of discomfort (and I acknowledge that discomfort is real and can be both physical & emotional)
- and again thanks to anyone doing their bit there especially if they aren't fully in agreement with the concept

I think that the idea of a police presence being required so that laws are enforced is a strange one
- surely most folk just accept the law as a kind of socially accepted minimum requirement of behaviour? but that's going to take us off topic and into LoST territory so I'll park that.

..and remember that the Grinch ended up being a good guy in the end
;)
- sd

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462794

Postby servodude » December 3rd, 2021, 3:29 am

UncleEbenezer wrote: Hmmm. To be fair, other countries are also playing that one. Isn't the current need for dead cats actually at a pretty ordinary level here?


Hi Unc

I stumbled upon something rare yesterday (ok ok stumbled is a bit strong, it was my first working from home day without either kid about for weeks - it was also 33deg so my mind was wandering off the task I was meant to be doing back to this thread )

- anyways its a review of facemask "literature"

Title:

The use of facemasks to prevent respiratory infection: a literature review in the context of the Health Belief Model

- so dealing with the effects and use thereof at a societal level (and not simply as filters - that aspect appears taken as a lemma, though misuse is addressed as reducing effectiveness)

but get this... it was published B.C! Yup! Before COVID!
- so hopefully there's not going to be as much of the overt politicisation that has become so unfortunately commonplace around these things

it's here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293989/
- and contains links to its sources, which due to life being a causal system are all also from a time before COVID ( not trawled all the links - I do have SOME work to do)
- it's about as close to experimental conditions as I've seen on this stuff so I thought it seemed like a decent thing to post here

as for dead cats - I believe they are very good for kick starting a septic tank ;)

- sd
EDIT: bloody links and braces

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462834

Postby 88V8 » December 3rd, 2021, 10:39 am

servodude wrote:.....a review of facemask "literature"

which begins Acute respiratory infections are prevalent and pose a constant threat to society. While the use of facemasks has proven to be an effective barrier to curb the aerosol spread of such diseases, its use in the local community is uncommon, resulting in doubts being cast on its effectiveness in preventing airborne infections during epidemics.

In a busy Waitrose on Tuesday we saw just one maskless person. I suppose he might have had a valid exemption.
They had a chap on the door &/or wandering around the store checking people.
Post-CV, we have pretty much foresaken Aldi. I feel more comfortable in shops patronised by wealthier and thus more intelligent customers.

V8 (other prejudices are available)

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462846

Postby Julian » December 3rd, 2021, 11:14 am

Spoiler alert! :)

servodude wrote:...
..and remember that the Grinch ended up being a good guy in the end
;)
- sd


- Julian

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462865

Postby UncleEbenezer » December 3rd, 2021, 12:33 pm

servodude wrote:The use of facemasks to prevent respiratory infection: a literature review in the context of the Health Belief Model

but get this... it was published B.C! Yup! Before COVID!
- so hopefully there's not going to be as much of the overt politicisation that has become so unfortunately commonplace around these things

it's here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293989/


Thanks for posting that one. I note it's from Singapore, which is historically/culturally a very compliant culture compared to the West.

"Health Belief Model" is an interesting central premise, and appears fundamental, particularly in a conclusion that tells us it's what we need to target:

CONCLUSION
Complex interventions that use multipronged approaches targeting the five components of the Health Belief Model, especially perceived susceptibility, are needed to increase the use of facemasks in the community. Further studies are required to evaluate the effectiveness of implemented interventions.


So, "we need sophisticated propaganda to convince people to use them, but we don't know whether they're effective".

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#462869

Postby XFool » December 3rd, 2021, 12:46 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
servodude wrote:The use of facemasks to prevent respiratory infection: a literature review in the context of the Health Belief Model

it's here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293989/

"Health Belief Model" is an interesting central premise, and appears fundamental, particularly in a conclusion that tells us it's what we need to target:

CONCLUSION
Complex interventions that use multipronged approaches targeting the five components of the Health Belief Model, especially perceived susceptibility, are needed to increase the use of facemasks in the community. Further studies are required to evaluate the effectiveness of implemented interventions.

So, "we need sophisticated propaganda to convince people to use them, but we don't know whether they're effective".

I don't think that is what they are saying, or mean.

Summary of the literature review on the use of facemasks to prevent respiratory infection.

Facemasks play an important role in the prevention and control of infectious respiratory disease transmission. However, compliance issues reduce the effectiveness of mask-wearing as a public health measure.

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#463015

Postby servodude » December 4th, 2021, 3:53 am

XFool wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
servodude wrote:The use of facemasks to prevent respiratory infection: a literature review in the context of the Health Belief Model

it's here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293989/

"Health Belief Model" is an interesting central premise, and appears fundamental, particularly in a conclusion that tells us it's what we need to target:

CONCLUSION
Complex interventions that use multipronged approaches targeting the five components of the Health Belief Model, especially perceived susceptibility, are needed to increase the use of facemasks in the community. Further studies are required to evaluate the effectiveness of implemented interventions.

So, "we need sophisticated propaganda to convince people to use them, but we don't know whether they're effective".

I don't think that is what they are saying, or mean.

Summary of the literature review on the use of facemasks to prevent respiratory infection.

Facemasks play an important role in the prevention and control of infectious respiratory disease transmission. However, compliance issues reduce the effectiveness of mask-wearing as a public health measure.


I do think that's more my take on it ;)

Doesn't make it easier to quantify to what degree they help but it does shift the chance of them "actively making things worse from a transmission point of view" from "ah! come on?" towards the "you cannot be serious"

So anyways on the degree thing... the Burnet study linked earlier showed the modelled Reff's changing from 1.16-1.28 to 0.91-0.88 (it's in the graph) for the change in mask usage they observed
- ie. the introduction of masks on top of stage 3 restrictions appear to account for a change in Reff of 0.25 to 0.4
- which is not much... but is something and should help - especially if close to an Reff of 1 (as it appeared to)

now imagine that your introduction of masks is due to something like the identification of the delta variant
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34369565/
gives us:
The Delta variant is now replacing all other SARS-CoV-2 variants. We found a mean R0 of 5.08, which is much higher than the R0 of the ancestral strain of 2.79.

- that innate change because of a variant absolutely overwhelms any mitigation masks can give you

Those figures also suggest that the stage 3 restrictions in Vic which were bringing Reff down (to that 1.16 to 1.28 range) were taking about 4 off the value - i.e. those ALSO overwhelm any effect that the masks were doing, in fact they would also even if it was "wild" original covid

Putting all that together if you introduce masks at the point you find a new more infectious variant starting to spread or you are increasing social interactions don't be surprised to see your infection rates go up
- but blaming that on the masks seems a bit cargo cult

-sd

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#463018

Postby Mike4 » December 4th, 2021, 7:22 am

88V8 wrote:
servodude wrote:.....a review of facemask "literature"

which begins Acute respiratory infections are prevalent and pose a constant threat to society. While the use of facemasks has proven to be an effective barrier to curb the aerosol spread of such diseases, its use in the local community is uncommon, resulting in doubts being cast on its effectiveness in preventing airborne infections during epidemics.

In a busy Waitrose on Tuesday we saw just one maskless person. I suppose he might have had a valid exemption.
They had a chap on the door &/or wandering around the store checking people.
Post-CV, we have pretty much foresaken Aldi. I feel more comfortable in shops patronised by wealthier and thus more intelligent customers.

V8 (other prejudices are available)



Same here. During quick visit to Waitrose in Newbury last night (it was heaving) for Old Hooky and bargain single malt (£30 for 10 year Talisker) I noted that mask-wearing was universal amongst the customers. Not a single maskless shopper. Staff were a different matter - a few were masked but most were not.

Like you I perceive a strong correlation between (assumed) IQ and mask-wearing. The less bright the people, the less likely they are to understand the reason for and value in wearing a mask, which in itself is understandable, and to wear one. Also, in life I have always noticed the less switched-on a person is, the more likely they are to be angry with the world and have a rebellious attitude, and therefore a higher tendency to reject rules or instructions from authority, like mask-wearing, getting vaxxed, wearing a seat belt etc etc.

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#463039

Postby onthemove » December 4th, 2021, 11:24 am

Mike4 wrote:Like you I perceive a strong correlation between (assumed) IQ and mask-wearing. The less bright the people, the less likely they are to understand the reason for and value in wearing a mask, which in itself is understandable, and to wear one. Also, in life I have always noticed the less switched-on a person is, the more likely they are to be angry with the world and have a rebellious attitude, and therefore a higher tendency to reject rules or instructions from authority, like mask-wearing, getting vaxxed, wearing a seat belt etc etc.


On the contrary.

I perceive that people with higher IQs are more likely to critically evaluate what they're told, and not just lap it up like sheep. More intelligent people when told to jump, evaluate for themselves whether jumping is called for and don't just ask 'how high!'.

Anyone who doesn't critically evaluate what medical experts tell them, really is a fool. I've learned that from bitter experience.

More intelligent people recognise that everyone is human, and so-called 'experts' are still very much fallible.

You don't need to be Einstein to have seen that when the so-called experts were crying foul about mask wearing mandates being relaxed in England back in July, and those so-called experts' were predicting pretty much covid Armageddon would be the consequence if they weren't listened to, that in actual reality the resultant covid figures went in completely the opposite direction to what those so-called experts were predicting.

Most people with reasonable intelligence would realise that if you have a dimmer switch which you believe you need to turn clockwise to brighten a light, and when you actually turn it clockwise in reality the light goes dimmer rather than brighter, well, most reasonably intelligent people would re-evaluate their mental model of the dimmer switch accordingly, and next time they want to brighten the light, they'd turn it anticlockwise.

And if someone who declared themselves an expert then came up to that reasonably intelligent person, and demanded that the reasonably intelligent person still turn it clockwise to dim it, and threatened that person with a fine if they didn't just do as told without question ... well, don't you think a reasonably intelligent person finding themselves in that position would be just a little bit angry?

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#463046

Postby XFool » December 4th, 2021, 11:58 am

onthemove wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Like you I perceive a strong correlation between (assumed) IQ and mask-wearing. The less bright the people, the less likely they are to understand the reason for and value in wearing a mask, which in itself is understandable, and to wear one. Also, in life I have always noticed the less switched-on a person is, the more likely they are to be angry with the world and have a rebellious attitude, and therefore a higher tendency to reject rules or instructions from authority, like mask-wearing, getting vaxxed, wearing a seat belt etc etc.

On the contrary.

I perceive that people with higher IQs are more likely to critically evaluate what they're told, and not just lap it up like sheep. More intelligent people when told to jump, evaluate for themselves whether jumping is called for and don't just ask 'how high!'.

On the contrary... I'm starting to develop yet another theory: When anybody announces that they "think for themselves" - Run!

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#463047

Postby onthemove » December 4th, 2021, 12:02 pm

XFool wrote:
onthemove wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Like you I perceive a strong correlation between (assumed) IQ and mask-wearing. The less bright the people, the less likely they are to understand the reason for and value in wearing a mask, which in itself is understandable, and to wear one. Also, in life I have always noticed the less switched-on a person is, the more likely they are to be angry with the world and have a rebellious attitude, and therefore a higher tendency to reject rules or instructions from authority, like mask-wearing, getting vaxxed, wearing a seat belt etc etc.

On the contrary.

I perceive that people with higher IQs are more likely to critically evaluate what they're told, and not just lap it up like sheep. More intelligent people when told to jump, evaluate for themselves whether jumping is called for and don't just ask 'how high!'.

On the contrary... I'm starting to develop yet another theory: When anybody announces that they "think for themselves" - Run!


So you don't think people should think for themselves?

Or you don't think people should be allowed to think for themselves?

Perhaps you could be a little clearer on what your point is.

And who do you think it should apply to? Would you consider yourself to be in the category who are allowed to think for themselves, or the category who aren't allowed to think for themselves?

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Re: England to surpass Wales again

#463051

Postby Mike4 » December 4th, 2021, 12:15 pm

XFool wrote:
onthemove wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Like you I perceive a strong correlation between (assumed) IQ and mask-wearing. The less bright the people, the less likely they are to understand the reason for and value in wearing a mask, which in itself is understandable, and to wear one. Also, in life I have always noticed the less switched-on a person is, the more likely they are to be angry with the world and have a rebellious attitude, and therefore a higher tendency to reject rules or instructions from authority, like mask-wearing, getting vaxxed, wearing a seat belt etc etc.

On the contrary.

I perceive that people with higher IQs are more likely to critically evaluate what they're told, and not just lap it up like sheep. More intelligent people when told to jump, evaluate for themselves whether jumping is called for and don't just ask 'how high!'.

On the contrary... I'm starting to develop yet another theory: When anybody announces that they "think for themselves" - Run!


Yes, this.

But to address one of onthemove's blizzard of dodgy points, i.e. the one you quoted, I agree with her that people who really are capable thinkers, do critically evaluate what they are being told. But were we diverge is I see part of the thinking as looking beyond at the rational, the evidence, the research and taking the time and trouble to read and properly understand what the researchers did and concluded. Doing this often (but not always) one concludes that the 'official' advice is actually and genuinely 'best advice based on the available evidence', and therefore correct, not 'wrong because I think for myself'.

I often notice those less skilled in critical thinking tend to start with the conclusion they want, e.g. "masks don't work", then cast around for supporting evidence, which is always available if one looks hard enough. But such thinking sometimes results in the thinker dismissing as arrogant anyone opposing their preconceived view, and all opposing evidence as 'rubbish'.


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