Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

[servodude]

One of the main challenges in diagnosing and treating long Covid is its unpredictability:

The same as the long version of many other viral infections then.

I think you're at risk being of being distracted by a semantic spectre here.

It is true that many other viral infections have had unpredictable sequelae.
However, these infections existed before 2019, have generally been studied and cataloged, and did not simultaneously expose most of the planet during a recent pandemic.

Repeatedly labouring the point that other viruses can have long term effects comes across as missing the point (or attempting to minimise the possible consequences of Covid)

[dealtn]

The same as the long version of many other viral infections then.

I think you're at risk being of being distracted by a semantic spectre here.

It is true that many other viral infections have had unpredictable sequelae.
However, these infections existed before 2019, have generally been studied and cataloged, and did not simultaneously expose most of the planet during a recent pandemic.

Repeatedly labouring the point that other viruses can have long term effects comes across as missing the point (or attempting to minimise the possible consequences of Covid)

What is the point being made by mtk62 then that I am missing? Perhaps they can care to explain rather than continuing to "dump" links on subjects across the site but not engage in any discussion.

It should come as no surprise that "new" viral infections can lead to long versions in some. It is the same across multiple other viral infections. It shouldn't be a surprise these are more numerous and unknown in Covid, surely. This was a new disease, and affected nearly everyone on the planet. That's a large number of people!

It is what is done about it, if anything, that is interesting to discuss. That discussion should include sufferers from similar outcomes across other viral infections too surely?

[servodude]

I think you're at risk being of being distracted by a semantic spectre here.

It is true that many other viral infections have had unpredictable sequelae.
However, these infections existed before 2019, have generally been studied and cataloged, and did not simultaneously expose most of the planet during a recent pandemic.

Repeatedly labouring the point that other viruses can have long term effects comes across as missing the point (or attempting to minimise the possible consequences of Covid)

What is the point being made by mtk62 then that I am missing? Perhaps they can care to explain rather than continuing to "dump" links on subjects across the site but not engage in any discussion.

It should come as no surprise that "new" viral infections can lead to long versions in some. It is the same across multiple other viral infections. It shouldn't be a surprise these are more numerous and unknown in Covid, surely. This was a new disease, and affected nearly everyone on the planet. That's a large number of people!

It is what is done about it, if anything, that is interesting to discuss. That discussion should include sufferers from similar outcomes across other viral infections too surely?

Well that was a better post than the usual "so do other viruses"
Hopefully you got an idea of part of what you're asking about in the bit of my post you quoted:
- the timing
- the prevalence
- the degree
- the variety of organs actually hit by COVID
and its apparent unusual variability
- are all factors I've seen discussed in papers on long COVID

And yes its being considered as part of a family of conditions (like GBS or post-Dengue).

Part of that research is to determine how similar it is!
You say "it's the same" I'm not sure that's confirmed yet

[mtk62]

"dump" links

I provide links to information that other readers might not be aware of.
I happen to be a fast reader and think others might be interested in the articles.
This is why I provide a headline/snippet/URL for others to followup if they are interested.

Some things aren't worth "discussing" (Covid/climate change/Gaza/Trump) as many people have their unshakeable opinions - irrespective of the facts.

I would have expected the moderators to inform me if I was doing anything wrong.

[GoSeigen]

"dump" links

I provide links to information that other readers might not be aware of.
I happen to be a fast reader and think others might be interested in the articles.
This is why I provide a headline/snippet/URL for others to followup if they are interested.

Some things aren't worth "discussing" (Covid/climate change/Gaza/Trump) as many people have their unshakeable opinions - irrespective of the facts.

I would have expected the moderators to inform me if I was doing anything wrong.

The moderators on TLF as a rule and as a matter of policy do not "inform" people of anything. The way it works is that users alert mods to problems using the report button and mods quietly clean up, in accordance with the published rules [if all goes to plan]. Sometimes at their discretion a mod might post a comment box or send a PM.

Also, the rules require links to be relevant, but as a tradition of the site and its predecessor, since TLF is considered a venue for discussion, the mere posting of links (with or without quoted extracts) is not really welcomed -- users prefer some relevant comment to also be made. I think the feeling is that the user is generally educated, curious and well informed and can make their own way to sources of information, they don't want someone else to curate that for them; they also want to read discussion, not wade through pages of links. On the other hand they are interested in the view of like-minded posters and value those views being supported by evidence. So links to other sites are certainly welcomed but in the context of discussion of some topic related to the content. Having said all that, one or two posters do have a special dispensation: idpickering regularly posts company regulatory news links without comment; on Motley Fool a user called Calcaria used to do similar with property news when house buying was the fashion.


I'm not trying to be prescriptive here, just give a flavour of the culture that has developed which might put dealtn's intervention into context. And I'm vaguely conscious of the old tale of the monkeys and ladder...


GS

[Lootman]

I provide links to information that other readers might not be aware of. I happen to be a fast reader and think others might be interested in the articles. This is why I provide a headline/snippet/URL for others to followup if they are interested.

I would have expected the moderators to inform me if I was doing anything wrong.

The moderators on TLF as a rule and as a matter of policy do not "inform" people of anything. The way it works is that users alert mods to problems using the report button and mods quietly clean up, in accordance with the published rules [if all goes to plan]. Sometimes at their discretion a mod might post a comment box or send a PM.

Also, the rules require links to be relevant, but as a tradition of the site and its predecessor, since TLF is considered a venue for discussion, the mere posting of links (with or without quoted extracts) is not really welcomed -- users prefer some relevant comment to also be made. I think the feeling is that the user is generally educated, curious and well informed and can make their own way to sources of information, they don't want someone else to curate that for them; they also want to read discussion, not wade through pages of links. On the other hand they are interested in the view of like-minded posters and value those views being supported by evidence. So links to other sites are certainly welcomed but in the context of discussion of some topic related to the content. Having said all that, one or two posters do have a special dispensation: idpickering regularly posts company regulatory news links without comment; on Motley Fool a user called Calcaria used to do similar with property news when house buying was the fashion.

I agree with GS here. TMF used to have a rule that posts should not just be a link and nothing else. Posts should contain a material discussion or analysis, and the link is just there for backup.

This incessant top posting of links with nothing else is lazy and sloppy, and often just looks like propaganda for some cause rather than thoughtful insight (with a couple of more genuine exceptions, as GS notes).

Some things aren't worth "discussing" (Covid/climate change/Gaza/Trump) as many people have their unshakeable opinions - irrespective of the facts.

No, those topics are worth discussing. And there are plenty of genuine differences of opinion on each of those topics.

The problem is more that some people seem so certain that they are right that they have long since stopped having an open mind, and so are incapable of learning.

[XFool]

The problem is more that some people seem so certain that they are right that they have long since stopped having an open mind, and so are incapable of learning.

I don't know about "the monkey and the ladder", but I do know the old saying about having "an open mind". Remember?

'It's good to keep an open mind. But not so open your brain falls out.'

[XFool]

'I was one of the Wuhan Covid bus drivers - and I'd do it again'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj67rpn2z6ro

"It's five years since he had his face splashed across the news, and Andy Simonds still gets asked about the image - anxious expression, hands gripping the wheel, as a medic in a hazmat suit is seated behind him."

[daveh]

'I was one of the Wuhan Covid bus drivers - and I'd do it again'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj67rpn2z6ro

"It's five years since he had his face splashed across the news, and Andy Simonds still gets asked about the image - anxious expression, hands gripping the wheel, as a medic in a hazmat suit is seated behind him."

Just read the article (before seeing this), and its interesting that I didn't see it at all at the time. Its also interesting and surprising that

1) they weren't asked to mask up (though window open and potentially infected passengers at the back would probably have been good enough).
2) they weren't asked to self isolate, but were asked to stay off work.

[GoSeigen]

I don't know about "the monkey[s] and the ladder",

It's fable told to explain why corporate culture is resistant to change.

GS

[mtk62]

The problem is more that some people seem so certain that they are right that they have long since stopped having an open mind, and so are incapable of learning.

Is this you being reflective?

A headline/snippet/URL could be all that is required.

I post interesting astro related stories in the Science section as you mentioned that it was underused.
There seem to be plenty of readers.

[dealtn]

You say "it's the same" I'm not sure that's confirmed yet

I think you need to revisit what I said, and what that "it" refers to.

What was postulated was that "One of the main challenges in diagnosing and treating long Covid is its unpredictability:". That challenge in diagnosing and treating is the same challenge as with many other viruses. In fact it can actually be harder because many accept the existence and difficulties of long-covid due to its recentness and large numbers. With less prevalent viruses even among the medical community symptons of long versions are dismissed.

[XFool]

Patients with long Covid regain sense of smell and taste with pioneering surgery

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/mar/07/long-covid-patients-regain-sense-smell-taste-functional-septorhinoplasty-surgery

Surgeons believe the technique called functional septorhinoplasty (fSRP) ‘kickstarts’ smell recovery in patients

[XFool]

The problem is more that some people seem so certain that they are right that they have long since stopped having an open mind, and so are incapable of learning.

Is this you being reflective?

That'll be the day!

[mtk62]

Five years on: Britons among hardest hit by Covid fallout

Britain performed worse than most other developed nations in its response to the Covid pandemic, according to an Observer analysis of international data, five years on from the first lockdown.

The UK spent more money than most other countries on economic help yet still ended up with larger drops in life expectancy, more people too sick to work, huge levels of homelessness and soaring mental health problems among young people.

Thousands will gather around the UK on Sunday to mark the fifth anniversary of the pandemic, yet the effects of Covid are not over and continue to affect the poorest more than others, health and civil society leaders warned.

“We haven’t seen the bounceback that other countries have,” said Siva Anandaciva, director of policy at the King’s Fund thinktank.

“When I look at the one big global indicator of how healthy we are, which is our life expectancy, we’ve gone backwards.

“We’ve fallen back to levels of a decade ago, while other countries have kept motoring on in western Europe and leaving us behind. It’s a pretty damning indictment of what happened.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/08/five-years-on-britons-among-hardest-hit-by-covid-fallout

It's disappointing that we've had a poor return on the investment - that'll be paid down for many years to come.

[XFool]

Controversial? (With some!)

Five years on from the pandemic, the right’s fake Covid narrative has been turbo-charged into the mainstream

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/mar/09/covid-five-years-right-narrative-outbreak

Before the next outbreak, we need a serious conversation about how to cope, but first, the more strident, misguided voices must be muted
• Laura Spinney is a science journalist and the author of Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World

"Five years on from the declaration of the Covid-19 pandemic, it’s the masked passenger who is suspect, nobody notices the scuffed distancing lines and trust in vaccines has taken a tumble. A different narrative has invaded the conversation: it wasn’t the virus that ruined our lives, but the response.

This narrative was always there*, but for a long time it stayed on the fringes. Now it’s becoming mainstream, turbo-charged by the recent successes of its political champions who typically gravitate towards the populist right. Public health experts have watched its advance with a gathering sense of doom."

* Indeed. It has featured more than once on TLF, in the past.

[Harry23]

but first, the more strident, misguided voices must be muted

oh I remember, we'll be alright, our illustrious leader told Donald Trump that we have free speech in Britain.

[XFool]

but first, the more strident, misguided voices must be muted

oh I remember, we'll be alright, our illustrious leader told Donald Trump that we have free speech in Britain.

We do! What we neither need or want is so called 'free speech' such as this:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/mar/09/covid-five-years-right-narrative-outbreak

"Anyone who doubts the power of narrative need only look at that modern Icarus, Anthony Fauci. Five years ago, the seasoned epidemic warrior and prominent figure in the US Covid-19 response (he was chief medical adviser to the president, 2021-22) was anointed the country’s “most trusted coronavirus expert”, and its “scientific voice of reason”. Then the white-hot heat of public opinion melted his wings. Having accepted a pre-emptive pardon from Joe Biden, he was forced to point out that he had committed no crime. And though he has been subjected to frequent death threats, Donald Trump has withdrawn his federal security detail."

If you can't even tell the difference between true "free speech" and denial, lies, nonsense and political propaganda then, IMO, you've already lost out on the freedom front.


This Is Not Propaganda

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Not_Propaganda

"The work discusses digital propaganda and how it affects viewer's senses of normality. He observed how the manipulation of reality characterizing Russian politics was used in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and in the Brexit referendum. The book includes a discussion on Rodrigo Duterte. The book also argues that destroying the idea of objective truth is a goal of various internet propaganda campaigns, as well as destroying the trust in democracy, and information overload meant to persuade people to put trust into dictatorial figures. The end of the book gives suggestions on how to build journalistic and online practices to solidify a focus on facts."

[Harry23]

oh I remember, we'll be alright, our illustrious leader told Donald Trump that we have free speech in Britain.

We do! What we neither need or want is so called 'free speech' such as this:

I was being sarcastic, obviously we don't have complete freedom of speech, I don't suppose anywhere does. But then it's not a binary yes or no, freedom is a sliding scale. I do however think Starmer was being rather obsequious when he made that remark.

[XFool]

Five years on, a US perspective. Interesting.

Unresolved COVID Trauma (with Dr. Leana Wen)

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/unresolved-covid-trauma-with-dr-leana

"Five years ago this week, the COVID-19 pandemic came to the United States, and with it a level of suffering and distrust of authority (and each other) that we haven't fully reckoned with. Indeed, the pandemic was a major factor in what made Donald Trump's political comeback possible. Dr. Leana Wen, public health expert and author of the Washington Post newsletter The Checkup with Dr. Wen joins Sarah to discuss the lessons learned from the pandemic, how it changed Americans, and its implications for the future of public health."