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Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Lootman
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#629939

Postby Lootman » November 25th, 2023, 5:48 pm

Spet0789 wrote:
Lootman wrote:Having a B.A. myself I would dispute that you can pick up the same skills simply by reading books. I think you could probably do better learning science from books than the humanities.

Just look at the way science is taught. You sit in a large lecture theatre and listen to the lecturer as he talks. You take notes, try to remember it and buy the textbook that he wrote. Compare that to a humanities degree which, at least in my case, involved sitting in a small'ish room with a dozen other students, being asked to offer a view, and than getting ripped apart by everyone else in the room.

Arts tend to be taught by the Socratic method and is much more demanding than passively absorbing "facts". In fact in my discipline, there were no real "facts". Rather you learned how to think by constant debate and criticism.

As for being "idle" at university, it is true that I only had 4 lectures a week. And missed a fair few of them. But there were essays to research and write, and debate seminars to prepare for. Most of the science/tech students I knew could not have handled that. They needed more discipline and structure.

As for switching discipline, note that government ministers do that all the time, moving from transport to health, or from finance to foreign policy. For that it helps to have a broad education rather than a deep but narrow one. There is a reason that there are few science or technology specialists in government.

Perhaps your lack of knowledge on this point stems from a lack of experience of studying science. As I said, I did both essays and practicals in labs when I was at University so can express that informed view.

Sorry to disappoint you but I started out doing a joint honours degree, so I had experience of both a technical subject and a humanities subject. I then switched part way through the degree to a single honours B.A. Part of my reason for switching was that I much preferred the teaching method on the arts side, more reason and less rote. I also found the arts students and teachers more interesting.

Sure some technical subjects require lab work but, again, a lot of that is routine and designed to reach the "right" answer. Such an approach is less helpful when there are a lot of unknowns and multiple possible solutions.

This reminds me of fights back at Uni and even in the sixth form between the arts kids and the science kids. They were very different from each other. But to the topic I do not think that most voters want narrow specialists giving orders and making decisions. It is rare to find them having the breadth of knowledge and reasoning skills needed. Thatcher as always being the exception that proves the rule.

The government may not have got every decision spot on. But then it is easy to criticise after the fact based on factors that were not clear in the fog of war at the time. And the UK stats are similar to many other comparable countries which reflects the balanced response it took.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#629979

Postby servodude » November 25th, 2023, 10:23 pm

I met thickos in both the Arts and Eng faculties (I had too few classes in the Science to comment).

The only real difference was the thickos in engineering didn't complete - they'd transfer out or become waiters

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630000

Postby Steveam » November 26th, 2023, 7:55 am

A decent and balanced summary of this week’s Covid Enquiry:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67514356

Best wishes, Steve

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630025

Postby XFool » November 26th, 2023, 10:28 am

...Beat me to it.

As if by illustration (see above):

How inquiry is exposing deep flaws in Covid decision-making

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67514356

With each passing week of the Covid inquiry, it is clear there were deep flaws in the way decisions were made and information provided during the pandemic.

"And it was both politicians and scientists making mistakes.

This much was clear from the evidence given by four of the government's top Covid scientists this week.
"

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630034

Postby Spet0789 » November 26th, 2023, 10:54 am

Lootman wrote:
Spet0789 wrote:Perhaps your lack of knowledge on this point stems from a lack of experience of studying science. As I said, I did both essays and practicals in labs when I was at University so can express that informed view.
But to the topic I do not think that most voters want narrow specialists giving orders and making decisions. It is rare to find them having the breadth of knowledge and reasoning skills needed. Thatcher as always being the exception that proves the rule.

The government may not have got every decision spot on. But then it is easy to criticise after the fact based on factors that were not clear in the fog of war at the time. And the UK stats are similar to many other comparable countries which reflects the balanced response it took.


I think this is the fundamental issue. Aside from the merits of a scientific/social sciences/humanities education I think the key point is that few people in this country are comfortable in both domains.

In my opinion, ‘educated’ British soviety accept a mediocre understanding of mathematical or technical concepts far more than in other areas. Imagine asking someone to give a couple of lines of explanation or comment on each of the following:-

King Lear
Conditional probability
The causes of WW2
Transistors
Mozart
Evolution
How to ask for directions in any foreign language
General relativity
The Wars of the Roses
Mean, median and mode
Money supply

I guarantee that most ‘educated’ people would be pretty shocked if someone couldn’t say anything about the odd items, but the even items are generally far more important to life and I would argue more important for our leaders to know about.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630068

Postby Ashfordian » November 26th, 2023, 3:20 pm

Steveam wrote:A decent and balanced summary of this week’s Covid Enquiry:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67514356

Best wishes, Steve


Whisper is quietly but this message is getting louder and louder, and the gullible can no longer keep their head in the sand around the harms they supported in 2020/21.



But the rest of Sage was dominated by infectious disease experts who were focussed on what the virus was doing. It means there was little formal attempt to measure or quantify the knock-on effects of what was a completely unprecedented policy.

Outside of Sage this also seems to be the case. There was no equality impact assessment, for example, which is one of the ways government can consider the costs and benefits of a decision.

Others have questioned this approach. Last month Prof Mark Woolhouse, an infectious disease expert at the University of Edinburgh, who sat on one of the government's Covid committees providing advice into Sage, said he was not aware of anyone looking at the wider harms. It is difficult to see how "balanced judgements" could be made without that work being done, he added.

And three years on, those harms are all too clear. Rising rates of mental health problems in the young, record-high hospital waiting lists and continued attendance problems at school.




However the Inquiry will not look into this as it is not part of their terms of reference. There should be a dedicate module on the long term effects, which just proves the Inquiry has been set up to be a whitewash.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630071

Postby XFool » November 26th, 2023, 3:58 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
Steveam wrote:A decent and balanced summary of this week’s Covid Enquiry:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67514356

Best wishes, Steve

Whisper is quietly but this message is getting louder and louder, and the gullible can no longer keep their head in the sand around the harms they supported in 2020/21.

Sure. But for those who want a truly balanced view, rather than one dominated by (presumably political) dogma:

"Experts advising government had underestimated how fast the virus was spreading and overestimated the extent to which it could be controlled.

Sir Patrick Vallance, who was the government's chief scientific adviser in the pandemic, admitted as much when he appeared before the inquiry on Monday.

He said the scientists had been "wrong" to think they could apply measures such as restrictions on socialising short of a lockdown with precision to produce a manageable wave of Covid over the summer - as was the plan up to mid March.

This came to a head on the weekend of 14 and 15 March 2020 when new data suggested the NHS was at risk of "imminent" collapse.

That kick-started a series of warnings to the public that ultimately led a week later to the full lockdown, but by that point the virus had seeded so far across the UK that many of the 40,000-plus deaths seen in the first wave were already baked in.
"


"But what about later on? Prof Dame Angela McLean, who is now the overall chief scientific adviser but held the Ministry of Defence department post in the pandemic, told the inquiry that a "cross-government commission" should have been set up in summer 2020 to "pause and think" about the wider picture.

"It was a missed opportunity", she said, before adding that was with the benefit of hindsight as she had never asked for it.
"

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630114

Postby dealtn » November 26th, 2023, 11:40 pm

XFool wrote:
Ashfordian wrote:Whisper is quietly but this message is getting louder and louder, and the gullible can no longer keep their head in the sand around the harms they supported in 2020/21.

Sure. But for those who want a truly balanced view, rather than one dominated by (presumably political) dogma:



So where are the other quotes to provide that balance you were claiming to provide?

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630123

Postby servodude » November 27th, 2023, 3:13 am

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:Sure. But for those who want a truly balanced view, rather than one dominated by (presumably political) dogma:



So where are the other quotes to provide that balance you were claiming to provide?


Can I ask you to explain what you would expect to, or hope to see?
- as this post seems at first glance (given the thread) to be loaded with false equivalence; which is rife these days and something that makes me quite disappointed.
- institutions like the BBC have been very guilty of this kind of thing since the advent of "because I'm worth it"- post fact opinion media

Varioulsy we see well intentioned attempts at "balance" giving disproportionate weight and credence to absolute batshit drivel
e.g. if two doctors were to give one a clear diagnosis for a mental health disorder it doesn't serve anyone's interests to subsequently ask a toilet cleaner, or chiropractor for their opinion!?!

How should one acknowledge, and address, the fact that there are batshit drivel merchants pleasuring themselves in the corner, because they have been given some attention, without giving their emissions more weight than they deserve?

-sd

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630137

Postby dealtn » November 27th, 2023, 8:43 am

servodude wrote:
dealtn wrote:
So where are the other quotes to provide that balance you were claiming to provide?


Can I ask you to explain what you would expect to, or hope to see?
...


Well I would expect someone attempting to show "true balance" quoting from an article such as that to feature at least once parts of the paragraph "Breadth of Expertise" perhaps.

I wouldn't expect to hear the opinions of Toilet Cleaners or fetishists of batshit

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630141

Postby servodude » November 27th, 2023, 9:05 am

dealtn wrote:
servodude wrote:
Can I ask you to explain what you would expect to, or hope to see?
...


Well I would expect someone attempting to show "true balance" quoting from an article such as that to feature at least once parts of the paragraph "Breadth of Expertise" perhaps.

I wouldn't expect to hear the opinions of Toilet Cleaners or fetishists of batshit


Precisely! And I totally agree.. but that's not how requests for "balance" often come across ;)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630148

Postby XFool » November 27th, 2023, 9:55 am

dealtn wrote:Well I would expect someone attempting to show "true balance" quoting from an article such as that to feature at least once parts of the paragraph "Breadth of Expertise" perhaps.

I wouldn't expect to hear the opinions of Toilet Cleaners or fetishists of batshit

Perhaps you could tell us who you consider to be the "Toilet Cleaners or fetishists of batshit" out of:

"Sir Patrick Vallance, who was the government's chief scientific adviser in the pandemic"
"Prof Dame Angela McLean, who is now the overall chief scientific adviser but held the Ministry of Defence department post in the pandemic"

Mystified...

(But see following post)
Last edited by XFool on November 27th, 2023, 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630149

Postby XFool » November 27th, 2023, 9:58 am

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:Sure. But for those who want a truly balanced view, rather than one dominated by (presumably political) dogma:

So where are the other quotes to provide that balance you were claiming to provide?

I was 'balancing' certain claims by a TLF poster (see posts above) who has been, and IMO still is, vigorously riding a particular (political?) hobby-horse of their own (and of others!)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630153

Postby dealtn » November 27th, 2023, 10:19 am

XFool wrote:
dealtn wrote:Well I would expect someone attempting to show "true balance" quoting from an article such as that to feature at least once parts of the paragraph "Breadth of Expertise" perhaps.

I wouldn't expect to hear the opinions of Toilet Cleaners or fetishists of batshit

Perhaps you could tell us who you consider to be the "Toilet Cleaners or fetishists of batshit" out of:

"Sir Patrick Vallance, who was the government's chief scientific adviser in the pandemic"
"Prof Dame Angela McLean, who is now the overall chief scientific adviser but held the Ministry of Defence department post in the pandemic"

Mystified...

(But see following post)


None. Agree I am mystified.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630154

Postby XFool » November 27th, 2023, 10:22 am

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:Perhaps you could tell us who you consider to be the "Toilet Cleaners or fetishists of batshit" out of:

"Sir Patrick Vallance, who was the government's chief scientific adviser in the pandemic"
"Prof Dame Angela McLean, who is now the overall chief scientific adviser but held the Ministry of Defence department post in the pandemic"

Mystified...

(But see following post)

None. Agree I am mystified.

I was somewhat mystified - and confused - by your original question. I hope my second reply above clarifies this.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630157

Postby dealtn » November 27th, 2023, 10:31 am

XFool wrote:
dealtn wrote:None. Agree I am mystified.

I was somewhat mystified - and confused - by your original question. I hope my second reply above clarifies this.


Not really.

Truly balanced, even when countering someone with an extreme view, doesn't happen through selective quotation (and selective omission). Perhaps you meant something else.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630159

Postby XFool » November 27th, 2023, 10:44 am

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:I was somewhat mystified - and confused - by your original question. I hope my second reply above clarifies this.

Not really.

Truly balanced, even when countering someone with an extreme view, doesn't happen through selective quotation (and selective omission). Perhaps you meant something else.

No! I didn't mean "something else". Indeed that point was, I guess, implicit in my "selective quotation" - countering the original "selective quotation".

Now you may disagree with that approach (why?) *, but remember, the whole article was originally referenced in the OP (and in my following post).

viewtopic.php?p=630000#p630000
viewtopic.php?p=630025#p630025


* Does not "balance" imply a balance of two opposing forces? Not going to one side or to the other?

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630179

Postby dealtn » November 27th, 2023, 12:29 pm

XFool wrote:* Does not "balance" imply a balance of two opposing forces? Not going to one side or to the other?


Does not "truly" reference all factors not just chosen ones? Clearly we have different interpretations of the definitions of the words you use, and the method of arguing your point(s)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630199

Postby Tedx » November 27th, 2023, 1:34 pm

Slightly off topic:

One person in the UK has been confirmed to have a strain of flu similar to viruses spreading in pigs, health officials say.

It's the first time it's been detected in the UK and close contacts are now being traced.

The A(H1N2)v case was detected as part of routine flu surveillance after being tested by the GP.

The person affected had a mild illness and has fully recovered. The source of their infection is under investigation.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67545375

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#630306

Postby Ashfordian » November 27th, 2023, 8:02 pm

dealtn wrote:
XFool wrote:I was somewhat mystified - and confused - by your original question. I hope my second reply above clarifies this.


Not really.

Truly balanced, even when countering someone with an extreme view, doesn't happen through selective quotation (and selective omission). Perhaps you meant something else.


Arguing more are suffering and are going to suffer from the long term effects of the restrictions compared to Covid itself ("The Cure being worse than the virus") is an extreme view?

No single comment I have read better demonstrates how broken the moral compass is of those accepted, supported and encouraged said restrictions and the suffering they have created for so many.


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