Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

[XFool]

The above is what you get when you confuse politics with science.

It seems you want to deny that Devi Sridhar is a Zero Covid loon. (I do question why you are trying to deny what she has written?)

Yes I certainly do. If I must I'd prefer to keep that moniker for the likes of The Great Barrington signatories and Carl Heneghan (other names are available).

Here it is in her own words from December 2020

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-variants

Indeed. Let us look at "her own words": Wed 23 Dec 2020 14.36

"With limited information available about the new variant, the lesson from 2020 is to move early and enforce precautions rather than wait for things to unfold. When the government delayed a lockdown in the spring that would have reduced the death rate, Britain learned the hard way that it’s better to prevent an emerging disaster than to wait and watch." "

"Now more than ever, it’s clear why we need a proactive strategy to eliminate Covid * altogether. The government has often delayed and dithered, reacting to outbreaks rather than seeking to prevent them. The flight bans imposed by other European countries show that, while the UK may be hesitant at suspending international travel, other countries are perfectly willing to act to control the spread of the variant."

* "Covid" - Yes, COVID-19 the disease (not SARS‑CoV‑2, a virus) and its effects on people and society. Why would anyone not think that a good idea?

"It’s no longer enough to just flatten the curve, or treat Covid-19 like a yearly flu. This will devastate our economy and society and run down our health services. The model of living with the virus and allowing it to run through the population has failed. Even Sweden, once hailed by some as an example of how to avoid harsh measures, has been hamstrung by outbreaks, run out of hospital beds and asked its Scandinavian neighbours for help."

Someone who thought we could eliminate Covid is clearly not an 'expert'

Someone who, in April 2020 in the midst of a declared global pandemic, opined that COVID-19 wasn't a pandemic is who I'd prefer to call "not an 'expert' ".

[Ashfordian]

* "Covid" - Yes, COVID-19 the disease (not SARS‑CoV‑2, a virus) and its effects on people and society. Why would anyone not think that a good idea?

You still deny and fail to see a link to these 'experts' and the impact their fear mongering and hyperbolic advice had on people and society. Writing as she did in The Guardian, with its gullible audience that blindly trusts experts is a massive failing from the pandemic.

The reality is that Covid was and is a winter cold for many. That was certainly not the narrative coming out of these people, despite Chris Whitty orginally saying this in April 2020 in a Gresham College presentation on Youtube.

However, 'experts' like this presented opinions that had massively adverse impacts on people and society. The impacts of lockdowns, school closures, £400bn+ wasted are now being felt and hindsight is proving this more and more every day. This is why Zero Covid was a loony strategy or belief because as has been proved you could not eliminate this virus, but huge resources have been wasted attempting it.

[XFool]

* "Covid" - Yes, COVID-19 the disease (not SARS‑CoV‑2, a virus) and its effects on people and society. Why would anyone not think that a good idea?

You still deny and fail to see a link to these 'experts' and the impact their fear mongering and hyperbolic advice had on people and society. Writing as she did in The Guardian, with its gullible audience that blindly trusts experts is a massive failing from the pandemic.

The reality is that Covid was and is a winter cold for many. That was certainly not the narrative coming out of these people, despite Chris Whitty orginally saying this in April 2020 in a Gresham College presentation on Youtube.

However, 'experts' like this presented opinions that had massively adverse impacts on people and society. The impacts of lockdowns, school closures, £400bn+ wasted are now being felt and hindsight is proving this more and more every day. This is why Zero Covid was a loony strategy or belief because as has been proved you could not eliminate this virus, but huge resources have been wasted attempting it.

When it comes to COVID, it is apparent that at some point in time you decided, for whatever reason, to dedicate yourself to attacking an imaginary and made up strawman. I see no sign you have any intention of stopping now.

By now, most of the rest of the world has moved on.

[Ashfordian]

You still deny and fail to see a link to these 'experts' and the impact their fear mongering and hyperbolic advice had on people and society. Writing as she did in The Guardian, with its gullible audience that blindly trusts experts is a massive failing from the pandemic.

The reality is that Covid was and is a winter cold for many. That was certainly not the narrative coming out of these people, despite Chris Whitty originally saying this in April 2020 in a Gresham College presentation on Youtube.

However, 'experts' like this presented opinions that had massively adverse impacts on people and society. The impacts of lockdowns, school closures, £400bn+ wasted are now being felt and hindsight is proving this more and more every day. This is why Zero Covid was a loony strategy or belief because as has been proved you could not eliminate this virus, but huge resources have been wasted attempting it.

When it comes to COVID, it is apparent that at some point in time you decided, for whatever reason, to dedicate yourself to attacking an imaginary and made up strawman. I see no sign you have any intention of stopping now.

By now, most of the rest of the world has moved on.

Four days ago you posted about Devi Sridhar as if she was some sort of all knowing messiah around Covid. I provided proof she was a ZeroCovid loon and not an 'expert' on Covid.

We are all going to suffer the consequences of overreacting to it, however the baby boomer and older generations are going to suffer as a group medically far worse (how else do you explain the current non-Covid excess deaths) than they would have done had we taken a sensible and pragmatic response. I am highlighting to all those who accepted, supported and promoted our overreaction and making them aware of the pain and suffering they are going to cause over the long term (next couple of decades). This is what they are going to have to live with on their conscience when friends, family, acquaintances are not getting the level of medical treatment they deserve.

So when you and others come here with 'experts' that would have made the post pandemic situation a whole lot worse, I will spend some time discrediting your 'experts'. If that also highlights and places a focus on your gullibility around the Pandemic then this is something you will have to reconcile with yourself.

Oh, and I'm yet to read that you have accepted that Covid came out of Chinese Laboratory so I'm guessing you still believe it came from a Wuhan wet market

[CliffEdge]

The reality is that Covid was and is a winter cold for many.

But a significant number died from this "winter cold". So it would seem to me to be something to be feared.

But not to you, you brave soul.

[Ashfordian]

The reality is that Covid was and is a winter cold for many.

But a significant number died from this "winter cold". So it would seem to me to be something to be feared.

But not to you, you brave soul.

3.5 years on and it is still only deaths from Covid that matter to you.

I care about all the deaths and poorer health outcomes who are collateral damage caused by us overreacting. But you don't, you brave soul!

[CliffEdge]

But a significant number died from this "winter cold". So it would seem to me to be something to be feared.

But not to you, you brave soul.

3.5 years on and it is still only deaths from Covid that matter to you.

I care about all the deaths and poorer health outcomes who are collateral damage caused by us overreacting. But you don't, you brave soul!

I don't think we overreacted but then I don't know everything like you obviously do.

[XFool]

Oh, and I'm yet to read that you have accepted that Covid came out of Chinese Laboratory so I'm guessing you still believe it came from a Wuhan wet market

Ah. Should we take it that is another of those absolute certainties that. mysteriously, have been vouchsafed to you alone, unlike all other mortal humans?

It is clear to me your whole approach to the COVID pandemic is dominated less by any kind of attempt at scientific insight than to a personal political ideology.

The problem with that is that reality cares nought for political ideology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut#The_story_of_Cnut_and_the_waves

[Ashfordian]

Oh, and I'm yet to read that you have accepted that Covid came out of Chinese Laboratory so I'm guessing you still believe it came from a Wuhan wet market

Ah. Should we take it that is another of those absolute certainties that. mysteriously, have been vouchsafed to you alone, unlike all other mortal humans?

It is clear to me your whole approach to the COVID pandemic is dominated less by any kind of attempt at scientific insight than to a personal political ideology.

The problem with that is that reality cares nought for political ideology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut#The_story_of_Cnut_and_the_waves

Rather ironic that you reference a story of trying and failing to control mother nature.

Almost identical to our Covid response, where the stupid tried and eventually failed to control a virus, except the Covid response came with a huge long term cost to all of us, physically, mentally and economically.

[Ashfordian]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... indicated/

Sunak’s lockdown scepticism is being vindicated

If your only goal was to minimise Covid-19 deaths, Eat Out to Help Out (EOTHO) – which, in case you have forgotten, offered customers significant government-funded discounts in restaurants and other eating establishments during the summer of 2020 – might well look reckless. However, it supported a key economic sector that was being severely damaged by lockdowns and social distancing.

In 2019, hospitality was about 3 per cent of GDP and 7 per cent of jobs. It was characterised by small businesses with limited resources to fall back on. Activity fell by 90 per cent in some areas between February and April 2020. Unemployment in the sector rose at twice the national rate in the sector and hospitality had almost 20 per cent of furloughed jobs.

It's just a shame that the country collectively lost its mind and rationale over Covid and that we needed scheme like EOTHO, etc

[XFool]

It is clear to me your whole approach to the COVID pandemic is dominated less by any kind of attempt at scientific insight than to a personal political ideology.

The problem with that is that reality cares nought for political ideology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut#The_story_of_Cnut_and_the_waves

Rather ironic that you reference a story of trying and failing to control mother nature.

On the contrary, there is nothing "ironic" in a story demonstrating how political ideology cannot change the natural world - I believe this works whichever interpretation is placed on the story of 'Cnut and the Waves'.

Almost identical to our Covid response, where the stupid tried and eventually failed to control a virus

You really don't seem to understand, do you? What society was trying to control was the effects of a disease, COVID-19, caused by the spread of a virus.

...except the Covid response came with a huge long term cost to all of us, physically, mentally and economically.

Unfortunately, one way or another, global pandemics do tend to have that effect. Which is why they are regarded as serious events.

[XFool]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/08/sunaks-lockdown-scepticism-is-being-vindicated/

Sunak’s lockdown scepticism is being vindicated

If your only goal was to minimise Covid-19 deaths, Eat Out to Help Out (EOTHO) – which, in case you have forgotten, offered customers significant government-funded discounts in restaurants and other eating establishments during the summer of 2020 – might well look reckless. However, it supported a key economic sector that was being severely damaged by lockdowns and social distancing.

In 2019, hospitality was about 3 per cent of GDP and 7 per cent of jobs. It was characterised by small businesses with limited resources to fall back on. Activity fell by 90 per cent in some areas between February and April 2020. Unemployment in the sector rose at twice the national rate in the sector and hospitality had almost 20 per cent of furloughed jobs.

It's just a shame that the country collectively lost its mind and rationale over Covid and that we needed scheme like EOTHO, etc

As well as helping out the hospitality industry it may have helped out the virus too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_Out_to_Help_Out#Scheme_and_impact

But I guess, if your only goal was to minimise harm to the hospitality industry...

[Ashfordian]

...except the Covid response came with a huge long term cost to all of us, physically, mentally and economically.

Unfortunately, one way or another, global pandemics do tend to have that effect. Which is why they are regarded as serious events.

30 years ago Covid-19 would not have even have registered as a pandemic.

[CliffEdge]

Unfortunately, one way or another, global pandemics do tend to have that effect. Which is why they are regarded as serious events.

30 years ago Covid-19 would not have even have registered as a pandemic.

30 years ago CoViD-19 didn't exist

[XFool]

30 years ago Covid-19 would not have even have registered as a pandemic.

I guess that must be the central tenet of your COVID-19 ideology?


BTW. In the 1957-58 worldwide influenza pandemic 'only' 1 - 4 million people died. So presumably that definitely couldn't have been a pandemic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics_and_pandemics#By_death_toll

For reference. World population:

2020: 7,840,952,880
1957: 2,857,866,857

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/

[Ashfordian]

30 years ago Covid-19 would not have even have registered as a pandemic.

I guess that must be the central tenet of your COVID-19 ideology?


BTW. In the 1957-58 worldwide influenza pandemic 'only' 1 - 4 million people died. So presumably that definitely couldn't have been a pandemic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics_and_pandemics#By_death_toll

For reference. World population:

2020: 7,840,952,880
1957: 2,857,866,857

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/

What restrictions were put in place by Governments for your referenced pandemic?

[XFool]

What restrictions were put in place by Governments for your referenced pandemic?

So... without "restrictions" fewer died in the 1957 influenza pandemic (that wasn't a pandemic by your logic) than died in the COVID-19 pandemic (that wasn't a pandemic in your opinion), where there were "restrictions". About 3x the proportion of the world population died from COVID-19 as from influenza in 1957.

I wonder what would be required to be classed as a pandemic in your ideology: The Plague of Justinian? The Black Death? Total annihilation of the human race?

[daveh]

Unfortunately, one way or another, global pandemics do tend to have that effect. Which is why they are regarded as serious events.

30 years ago Covid-19 would not have even have registered as a pandemic.

Thirty years ago COVID would have been a major disaster and 100s of million likely would have died as we would have taken years to produce a vaccine as the the RNA technology was not available and even the OxfordAstrazeneca vaccine technology which is more similar to what was possible 30 years ago would have taken years to produce as then you couldn't just splice in code from the virus into a pre prepared backbone.

[Ashfordian]

30 years ago Covid-19 would not have even have registered as a pandemic.

Thirty years ago COVID would have been a major disaster and 100s of million likely would have died as we would have taken years to produce a vaccine as the the RNA technology was not available and even the OxfordAstrazeneca vaccine technology which is more similar to what was possible 30 years ago would have taken years to produce as then you couldn't just splice in code from the virus into a pre prepared backbone.

Yet more evidence that it was Foolishness (capital 'F') that died on this site at the start of the pandemic.

Firstly, 30 years ago there were only 5.557bn people on the planet. 100m deaths (not the hundreds of millions you scaremonger) would have been an IFR of 1.8%. Compare your scaremongering to The Lacent reporting a global IFR of 0.446% before vaccines were available (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 40-6736(21)02867-1/fulltext)

Secondly, many of those taken by Covid would not have been alive in equivalent circumstances 30 years ago due to the medical advances over the 30 year period.

Thirdly, we didn't have the obesity epidemic that exists today.

[servodude]

Secondly, many of those taken by Covid would not have been alive in equivalent circumstances 30 years ago due to the medical advances over the 30 year period.

This is the kind of hilarious argument I read these boards for
- thanks for not letting me down