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Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
absolutezero
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362576

Postby absolutezero » December 3rd, 2020, 12:44 pm

seekingbalance wrote:
absolutezero wrote:But I am wondering whether this jab will be worth the small chance of me being severely affected by a disease that has a 99.4% survival rate.


Where do people get these crazy numbers from?

The general rate of severe reaction to vaccines is in the order of 1 in a million for most mainstream vaccines - but around 3% (60k deaths from 1.66m confirmed case - really at least 90k actual deaths by excess mortality v probably 2 million actual cases) of those who test positive for Covid-19 die and double that get lasting effects or quite severe cases.

Post viral syndrome with long lasting effects is common after infection with many viruses. It is not unique to Covid.

Interesting choice of the word 'mainstream' to describe non-covid viruses. Freudian slip?

absolutezero
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362578

Postby absolutezero » December 3rd, 2020, 12:46 pm

Gerry557 wrote:
Yep, we should all wait 40 years so we know it's safe for the longer term. Except it won't because there won't be any long termers cos no one will have had it. All new products have to start somewhere without long term histories. You can only check so much anyway. If fact all those holiday jabs you have had also cause death in the longer term. I saw a study that after 150 years it had a 100% death rate. So I would advise never going on holiday.

:roll:

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362647

Postby stevensfo » December 3rd, 2020, 4:49 pm

Lootman wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
AleisterCrowley wrote:From BBC
The vaccine is given as two injections, 21 days apart, with the second dose being a booster. Immunity begins to kick in after the first dose but reaches its full effect seven days after the second dose.
So 28 days first jab to full immunity- "28 Days Later"

On reflection, I think the six weeks after second injection I wrote above might have been the specification for the AstraZeneca vaccine.

The AZN vaccine seems inferior to the Pfizer vaccine for a number of reasons.

So the old and the vulnerable may be getting the better vaccine, whilst the majority who get jabbed later may get the inferior (but cheaper) one.


The AZN vaccine is a standard vaccine whereby they inject a protein that should be the same as the Coronavirus spike proteins and provokes an immune response. The Pfizer vaccine is using a method that is routinely used on animals. They inject mRNA (like a 10kb stream of computer code) into your muscle and in theory, the mRNA is absorbed into your cells and starts to code for the viral spike proteins that are then exported outside the cells and then provoke an immune response.

I'm a Biochemist by training, and not a Doctor, but my gut feeling tells me to hold off and continue to take standard precautions till we see the results. Both the EMA and FDA are gazing with baited breath at Boris Johnson's decision to start vaccinations before them. Fingers crossed! What can possibly go wrong?

Steve

AleisterCrowley
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362667

Postby AleisterCrowley » December 3rd, 2020, 5:36 pm

Zombie apocalypse ? Or I Am Legend (2007 film version)

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362670

Postby XFool » December 3rd, 2020, 5:43 pm

absolutezero wrote:My problem with this vaccine is that is may well have passed all regulatory safety checks - but it isn't tested by time. It's been produced very quickly.

We don't know that in 5 years time everyone who has been jabbed won't get liver failure or turn blue.
None have so far. But who knows what will happen after a few years?

Other vaccines have been around for years (even the flu jab but they just alter the strain rather than starting from scratch each year) and are time tested.

The only way of time testing any vaccine is to use it over a long period of time!

In this case, you will be avoiding a relatively unknown risk with a novel and nasty virus, or taking a presumably small risk with a novel vaccine.

absolutezero wrote:I am not anti vaxx.
But I am wondering whether this jab will be worth the small chance of me being severely affected by a disease that has a 99.4% survival rate.

Not sure what that 99.4% survival rate means. 99.4% of population don't die from it, 99.4% survive? Then again, of all those who get it and survive, some are in pretty bad shape even if they survived.

Do you feel lucky? :)

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362671

Postby XFool » December 3rd, 2020, 5:46 pm

stevensfo wrote:I'm a Biochemist by training, and not a Doctor, but my gut feeling tells me to hold off and continue to take standard precautions till we see the results. Both the EMA and FDA are gazing with baited breath at Boris Johnson's decision to start vaccinations before them. Fingers crossed! What can possibly go wrong?

One can hope that it wasn't actually Boris Johnson's decision. :?

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362674

Postby XFool » December 3rd, 2020, 5:56 pm

seekingbalance wrote:
absolutezero wrote:But I am wondering whether this jab will be worth the small chance of me being severely affected by a disease that has a 99.4% survival rate.

Where do people get these crazy numbers from?

The general rate of severe reaction to vaccines is in the order of 1 in a million for most mainstream vaccines - but around 3% (60k deaths from 1.66m confirmed case - really at least 90k actual deaths by excess mortality v probably 2 million actual cases) of those who test positive for Covid-19 die and double that get lasting effects or quite severe cases.

And the key thing, which you are ignoring is the fact that for the country, and maybe you or someone you know, is it is NOT about the actual mortality rate, it is about the hospitalisation rate, which is way, way higher than the mortality rate. Every one of the people hospitalised for Covid takes a bed that would otherwise have been free at this time of the year. Every ICU patient takes 5+ staff round the clock. You live in an area with high Covid hospitalisations and have a heart attack - there may not be an ICU bed, or you may have your cancer treatment delayed, or your op cancelled.

A 99.4% survival rate (at a certain age group) misses the point that this is not about you. It is not about me. It is about everyone. If you get, you'll survive, almost certain. But who will you pass it to? And who will they pass it to? Maybe nobody. But maybe your dad, your mum, your gran, the old boy at the pub, the kid down the road who's mum is on dialysis.

And by the way, if the case survival rate was indeed 99.4%, if everyone in the country caught Covid that would mean 402,000 deaths.

Hear! Hear!

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362730

Postby servodude » December 3rd, 2020, 10:18 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:Zombie apocalypse ? Or I Am Legend (2007 film version)


Heretic!
- was there ever a film that missed the point so much?

- sd

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362737

Postby AleisterCrowley » December 3rd, 2020, 10:23 pm

I have the Matheson book, of course :)

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362749

Postby servodude » December 3rd, 2020, 10:39 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:I have the Matheson book, of course :)


Of course, wouldn't have thought otherwise - that film though! Sheesh.
- give me "The Omega Man" or "The Last Man on Earth"

- sd

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362755

Postby AleisterCrowley » December 3rd, 2020, 11:04 pm

I've only ever seen the trailer, and a few clips on PooTube

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#362757

Postby servodude » December 3rd, 2020, 11:12 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:I've only ever seen the trailer, and a few clips on PooTube


- it shares the title of the book and manages to not understand what that was intended to mean

really very bad

-sd

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#363055

Postby look » December 5th, 2020, 1:04 am

I think the discussion about vaccine to be mandatory is bs.

the first problem will be how to prevent confusions in the rows when all want to be vaccinated before the others.

and if the vaccine is all that good the vaccinated guys don't need to be worry if others didn't take the vaccine.

I suppose that in the risky groups more than 95% want the vaccine.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#363359

Postby seekingbalance » December 6th, 2020, 12:17 am

look wrote:I think the discussion about vaccine to be mandatory is bs.

the first problem will be how to prevent confusions in the rows when all want to be vaccinated before the others.

and if the vaccine is all that good the vaccinated guys don't need to be worry if others didn't take the vaccine.



Sadly, this is not quite correct. If enough people don’t take the vaccine the chances of getting the incidence down sufficiently to effectively kill off the spread disappears. The virus will circulate in an unvaccinated population and if and when immunity wanes in the previously infected and the vaccinated the virus will still be in Gen pop, perhaps in enough quantity to start this all over again.

This course of events means we will all be stuck in a continuous loop of needing the vaccine for ever more, just as we are stuck with the flu as not enough people are immune/vaccinated at any one time to eradicate it.

Measles was all but eradicated in many countries but recent anti vax sentiment has brought it roaring back. Polio has never quite gone. Only smallpox has been totally eliminated, through 99% population vaccination.

Of course it will be almost impossible to eradicate Covid, especially if immunity is fleeting, but getting it really really low in incidence means we could live with it without too much risk. But if 20% of the population don’t get vaccinated everyone else will need to be vaccinated all the time. Hopefully over time all this vaccination and infection created immunity will weaken the effects of Covid and it will become much more flu like.

But here lies another reason to do all we can to eradicate it, and in the process also develop a better flu vaccine and try to eradicate that too. It seems to me we are as a race too accepting of the number of flu deaths - how many people on this very thread have compared the death rates of Covid and flu and even where incorrectly asserting they are the same, nowhere have I seen anyone saying “and the flu number is really bad too”! Do we not want to eliminate all of these killers? Do we not try to make roads safer, airlines safer, to stop murderers, strive to reduce heart disease, stroke, cancer?

If one good thing is to come of this Covid mess I fervently hope it is that nations and scientists/doctors see the potential for grand projects of a similar scale to our Covid fight. How quickly could we eradicate malaria if enough money and effort was thrown at it. And the flu. And many genetic diseases.

All that aside, getting the incidence of Covid to very low levels is essential to a full return to normality. That, or we just accept that 1% of our population is going to die from it pretty much every year from now on, and we need to spend a crap load more money on hospital capacity.

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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#363410

Postby dealtn » December 6th, 2020, 10:28 am

seekingbalance wrote:
But here lies another reason to do all we can to eradicate it, and in the process also develop a better flu vaccine and try to eradicate that too. It seems to me we are as a race too accepting of the number of flu deaths - how many people on this very thread have compared the death rates of Covid and flu and even where incorrectly asserting they are the same, nowhere have I seen anyone saying “and the flu number is really bad too”! Do we not want to eliminate all of these killers? Do we not try to make roads safer, airlines safer, to stop murderers, strive to reduce heart disease, stroke, cancer?

If one good thing is to come of this Covid mess I fervently hope it is that nations and scientists/doctors see the potential for grand projects of a similar scale to our Covid fight. How quickly could we eradicate malaria if enough money and effort was thrown at it. And the flu. And many genetic diseases.

All that aside, getting the incidence of Covid to very low levels is essential to a full return to normality. That, or we just accept that 1% of our population is going to die from it pretty much every year from now on, and we need to spend a crap load more money on hospital capacity.

My Bold. The answer has to be no.

Does that mean as a society we shouldn't be having a sensible debate about questions such as this? Of course we should. But "do all we can" is a huge hurdle, and within that cost is the loss of enormous economic and libertarian considerations.

Do we "do all we can" in eliminating traffic accidents by banning cars? No.

Do we "do all we can" in eliminating Cancer by forcing 100% of people to work in medical research? No.

Do we "do all we can" in eliminating suicide devoting more resource at that than the defence budget? No.

Society no doubt will reflect on, and adjust, the priorities and resources given to such issues, but to use language such as "do all we can" is ridiculous, impractical and undesirable.

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Serious question

#365504

Postby Arizona11 » December 12th, 2020, 6:58 pm

I know I have already asked twice about the COVID vaccine and they have been moved to Beerpigs Snug, which is fine with me. However, I have still not had any clear answers to my questions. My new one relates to temporary reactions to the vaccine and perhaps a medical expert could give a clear reply. My question relates to when I have the jab and I get some temporary side effects such as swelling or high temperature for a day or so, I understand that this results from the body producing antibodies, which is seen as a good sign. So my question is actually: if I get no reaction, should I be worried that the jab has been ineffective or is that assumption incorrect and that some people show outward signs and some don’t but it doesn’t imply success or not?

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Re: Serious question

#365506

Postby pochisoldi » December 12th, 2020, 7:34 pm

Arizona11 wrote:I know I have already asked twice about the COVID vaccine and they have been moved to Beerpigs Snug, which is fine with me. However, I have still not had any clear answers to my questions. My new one relates to temporary reactions to the vaccine and perhaps a medical expert could give a clear reply. My question relates to when I have the jab and I get some temporary side effects such as swelling or high temperature for a day or so, I understand that this results from the body producing antibodies, which is seen as a good sign. So my question is actually: if I get no reaction, should I be worried that the jab has been ineffective or is that assumption incorrect and that some people show outward signs and some don’t but it doesn’t imply success or not?


You will never get a straight answer to your question, because the way the body reacts depends on the type of vaccine (in the next 12 months there will be more than one vaccine in use), and how that vaccine works.

Even for a given type of vaccine, it is likely that different people will react in different ways (just look at the varying response to the CoVID19 seen "in the wild")

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Re: Serious question

#365513

Postby dealtn » December 12th, 2020, 7:58 pm

Arizona11 wrote: So my question is actually: if I get no reaction, should I be worried that the jab has been ineffective or is that assumption incorrect and that some people show outward signs and some don’t but it doesn’t imply success or not?


The percentages of people that get no reaction / mild reaction / serious reaction to a vaccine inoculation will depend on the type of vaccine.

However the lack of reaction isn't a sign of vaccination failure, so you shouldn't worry.

look
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#366575

Postby look » December 15th, 2020, 11:09 pm

I think there are studies about remedies for covi19 evetywhere in the world.

Se as I saw that one poster has the nickname Arizona I searched to find about studies in Arizona.

https://www.azfamily.com/news/continuin ... 3c8f0.html

perhaps there are dozens of remedies in the world with positive test (remedies already in the market) but that never will be tested according the rules of the official organizations.

about the vacinnes, some persons are afraid about the effect in the long term.

look
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Re: Coronavirus Health - Health and Wellbeing

#367738

Postby look » December 19th, 2020, 3:51 pm

Days ago, I learnt a new form of doing searches in google, at least new for me.

it's useful to discover articles in scientific magazines.

the site is: scholar.google.com

as a test i searched this words: covid and nac

here are the the results:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=p ... +nac&btnG=

more than 7 thousend references!


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