Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

The vaccine

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Forum rules
This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7084
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1637 times
Been thanked: 3792 times

Re: The vaccine

#425103

Postby Mike4 » July 5th, 2021, 10:38 pm

Snorvey wrote:Israel has recorded a steep drop in the efficacy rate of the Pfizer Inc.-BioNTech SE in preventing coronavirus infections, due to the spread of the delta variant and the easing of government restrictions, Ynet news website reported, citing Health Ministry data.

At the same time, the decline in protection against serious cases and hospitalization is considerably milder, the website said. There was no immediate comment from the ministry.

The figures show that between May 2 and June 5, the vaccine had a 94.3% efficacy rate. From June 6, five days after the government canceled coronavirus restrictions, until early July, the rate plunged to 64%. A similar decline was recorded in protection against coronavirus symptoms, the report said.


Oooooooh dear.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -ynet-says



Shhh... nobody wants to hear this......

XFool
The full Lemon
Posts: 12636
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:21 pm
Been thanked: 2608 times

Re: The vaccine

#427608

Postby XFool » July 14th, 2021, 12:33 pm

Interesting article on the BBC website. And of course, there is even more history prior to Jesty, as the article says:

"Vaccination wasn't plucked out of the air by Benjamin Jesty or by Edward Jenner, it was built on out of what went before - that's why Jesty does deserve recognition."


Benjamin Jesty: The unsung hero of vaccination

BBC News

More than 250 years before the coronavirus pandemic, another deadly virus - smallpox - was sweeping Europe.

"The epidemic led to the development of the first vaccine - a medical milestone credited to Gloucestershire physician Edward Jenner.

But, while Jenner became rich and famous for his discovery, the technique had been pioneered more than two decades earlier by a Dorset dairy farmer whose social status meant he never received the recognition he deserved.
"

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: The vaccine

#428402

Postby swill453 » July 18th, 2021, 10:20 am

Every adult in the UK has been offered a Covid vaccine

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57876608

Scott.

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8910
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3665 times

Re: The vaccine

#428407

Postby redsturgeon » July 18th, 2021, 10:28 am

swill453 wrote:
Every adult in the UK has been offered a Covid vaccine

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57876608

Scott.


Yes I read this and it is a pity that my 23 year old daughter who had her first vaccine as soon as she could still has to wait another four weeks to get her second shot and then will not be fully protected until two weeks after that. In the meantime she is working in hospitality dealing with hundreds of customers a day. She has tried to go to a walk in centre but although turning up before they were open and queuing for hours, was unable to get a shot before she had to leave to go to work.

My 20 year old son also had his first shot as soon as he could and his second shot is due after he has to fly back to the US to study. We are hoping to bring that forward but who knows.

So the phrase "has been offered a vaccine" needs to be viewed in its full context.

John

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: The vaccine

#428409

Postby swill453 » July 18th, 2021, 10:31 am

redsturgeon wrote:So the phrase "has been offered a vaccine" needs to be viewed in its full context.

Absolutely, the point being that the government rarely supplies the context around such sound bytes.

(For example does the mere existence of drop-in vaccination centres count as an "offer"?)

Scott.

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8910
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3665 times

Re: The vaccine

#428414

Postby redsturgeon » July 18th, 2021, 10:39 am

swill453 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:So the phrase "has been offered a vaccine" needs to be viewed in its full context.

Absolutely, the point being that the government rarely supplies the context around such sound bytes.

(For example does the mere existence of drop-in vaccination centres count as an "offer"?)

Scott.


Quite possibly, also the usual postcode lottery exists. We have a few "contacts" in this field and have exploited them to get jabs for the kids. Unfortunately the government are taking a hard line (slap on wrist) to vaccination centres offering the second jab before 8 weeks even if excess vaccine would otherwise go to waste so our normal source can't help us.

We do know however than there are some GP led centres that have been second vaccinating at less than 8 weeks so we are seeking those out.

It feels really strange that we are having to work hard to do this against the background of government appeals for everyone to come forward to be jabbed!

John

Gersemi
Lemon Slice
Posts: 492
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:57 pm
Has thanked: 535 times
Been thanked: 222 times

Re: The vaccine

#428440

Postby Gersemi » July 18th, 2021, 11:50 am

swill453 wrote:Absolutely, the point being that the government rarely supplies the context around such sound bytes.

(For example does the mere existence of drop-in vaccination centres count as an "offer"?)

Scott.


This relates to first vaccinations I think. I would assume that the condition had been met if anyone over the age of 18 can now book a vaccination for almost immediate (maybe next day) injection.

Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7084
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1637 times
Been thanked: 3792 times

Re: The vaccine

#428446

Postby Mike4 » July 18th, 2021, 12:09 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
swill453 wrote:
Every adult in the UK has been offered a Covid vaccine

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57876608

Scott.


Yes I read this and it is a pity that my 23 year old daughter who had her first vaccine as soon as she could still has to wait another four weeks to get her second shot and then will not be fully protected until two weeks after that. In the meantime she is working in hospitality dealing with hundreds of customers a day. She has tried to go to a walk in centre but although turning up before they were open and queuing for hours, was unable to get a shot before she had to leave to go to work.

My 20 year old son also had his first shot as soon as he could and his second shot is due after he has to fly back to the US to study. We are hoping to bring that forward but who knows.

So the phrase "has been offered a vaccine" needs to be viewed in its full context.

John


Yes, 'weasel words' if ever I heard them.

The first time I ever heard the term was from Johnson himself, when in the early days he announced some implausibly large jump in the numbers of people vaccinated then immediately corrected himself, changing his claim to "people offered the vaccine". Thereby muddying the waters by lumping into the vaccination figures all those also refusing it.

Both my sons too have had one jab, and are being made to wait the full 12 weeks for the second. One is a teacher.

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: The vaccine

#428447

Postby swill453 » July 18th, 2021, 12:12 pm

Mike4 wrote:The first time I ever heard the term was from Johnson himself, when in the early days he announced some implausibly large jump in the numbers of people vaccinated then immediately corrected himself, changing his claim to "people offered the vaccine". Thereby muddying the waters by lumping into the vaccination figures all those also refusing it.

Similar to claiming to have done X hundred thousand tests per day, by counting home test kits sent out in the post.

Scott.

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1584
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 672 times
Been thanked: 479 times

Re: The vaccine

#428480

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » July 18th, 2021, 1:37 pm

I managed to book my first COVID vaccination a day or so before it was officially announced that they were accepting my age group. The back office NHS systems had clearly been primed ahead of the official announcement.

My follow up second appointment was booked for August, but now they've narrowed the gap to eight weeks I managed to get my second jab yesterday at a walk-in centre. I've accordingly cancelled the August appointment. I was pleased to see lengthy queues - high take up is good, or maybe everyone just arrived at once! There was some confusion as the first centre I'd gone to, which advertised walk ins, told myself and others arriving that they weren't, in fact, doing them that day.

I do hope vaccine uptake continues to be high. Rates seem to have slowed recently. I assume supply is the key issue.

redsturgeon wrote:Yes I read this and it is a pity that my 23 year old daughter who had her first vaccine as soon as she could still has to wait another four weeks to get her second shot and then will not be fully protected until two weeks after that. In the meantime she is working in hospitality dealing with hundreds of customers a day. She has tried to go to a walk in centre but although turning up before they were open and queuing for hours, was unable to get a shot before she had to leave to go to work.


I do feel sorry for people working in these sectors, and others. They are not able to social distance through the nature of their work. They tend to be a younger age cohort, too. I must admit to knowing some people who 'refused' the vaccine and I was quite angry, given the number who were not then eligible yet would have jumped at the chance.

Best wishes


Mark.

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1584
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 672 times
Been thanked: 479 times

Re: The vaccine

#428482

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » July 18th, 2021, 1:39 pm

redsturgeon wrote:Unfortunately the government are taking a hard line (slap on wrist) to vaccination centres offering the second jab before 8 weeks even if excess vaccine would otherwise go to waste so our normal source can't help us.


I really think that is a bad policy! Time to be pragmatic in such circumstances.

Best wishes


Mark.

dealtn
Lemon Half
Posts: 6072
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 2324 times

Re: The vaccine

#428496

Postby dealtn » July 18th, 2021, 2:37 pm

Mike4 wrote:Yes, 'weasel words' if ever I heard them.


What's weasel about them? Seriously!

Every eligible adult has been offered a vaccine. There are a few genuine exceptions such as the pregnant, or ill.

Are politician's making claims that everyone has had the benefit of both vaccines, or that the entire population is protected, or that the country is safe? Can you find a single instance of such a ludicrous claim? If you do please feel free to vilify the miscreant to the full extent.

Instead politicians, and their advisors, are using a simple phrase that almost 100% encapsulates the truth. That is the context. What is so difficult for people to understand?

servodude
Lemon Half
Posts: 8271
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:56 am
Has thanked: 4435 times
Been thanked: 3564 times

Re: The vaccine

#428656

Postby servodude » July 19th, 2021, 2:24 am

dealtn wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Yes, 'weasel words' if ever I heard them.


What's weasel about them? Seriously!

Every eligible adult has been offered a vaccine. There are a few genuine exceptions such as the pregnant, or ill.

Are politician's making claims that everyone has had the benefit of both vaccines, or that the entire population is protected, or that the country is safe? Can you find a single instance of such a ludicrous claim? If you do please feel free to vilify the miscreant to the full extent.

Instead politicians, and their advisors, are using a simple phrase that almost 100% encapsulates the truth. That is the context. What is so difficult for people to understand?


People use the term "weasel words" with respect to language that is used to avoid being forthright.
One thing is said in the knowledge, and with the intent, that something else will will be inferred.

Just to be clear in this case, people don't think it's "weaselly" because there are a small cohort (such as the pregnant) that haven't been offered a vaccine
People think it's "weaselly" because being offered a vaccine doesn't mean that someone is protected against the disease
- it's a semantic loophole

There is no doubt that the phrase is correct: every adult in the UK has been offered a vaccine
It is also literally true to say every adult in Australia has been offered a vaccine
I'm sure you probably realise that doesn't make the vaccine roll outs equivalent?

Have fun
- sd

dealtn
Lemon Half
Posts: 6072
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 2324 times

Re: The vaccine

#428675

Postby dealtn » July 19th, 2021, 8:20 am

servodude wrote:
dealtn wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Yes, 'weasel words' if ever I heard them.


What's weasel about them? Seriously!

Every eligible adult has been offered a vaccine. There are a few genuine exceptions such as the pregnant, or ill.

Are politician's making claims that everyone has had the benefit of both vaccines, or that the entire population is protected, or that the country is safe? Can you find a single instance of such a ludicrous claim? If you do please feel free to vilify the miscreant to the full extent.

Instead politicians, and their advisors, are using a simple phrase that almost 100% encapsulates the truth. That is the context. What is so difficult for people to understand?


People use the term "weasel words" with respect to language that is used to avoid being forthright.
One thing is said in the knowledge, and with the intent, that something else will will be inferred.

Just to be clear in this case, people don't think it's "weaselly" because there are a small cohort (such as the pregnant) that haven't been offered a vaccine
People think it's "weaselly" because being offered a vaccine doesn't mean that someone is protected against the disease
- it's a semantic loophole

There is no doubt that the phrase is correct: every adult in the UK has been offered a vaccine
It is also literally true to say every adult in Australia has been offered a vaccine
I'm sure you probably realise that doesn't make the vaccine roll outs equivalent?

Have fun
- sd


Nobody is claiming being offered a vaccine is the same as being fully protected. Be that those that say the words, or those that hear them.

It's not a semantic loophole at all. It is a truthful statement that all can understand. What legitimate alternative phraseology do you think should be used that conveys the message?

Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7084
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1637 times
Been thanked: 3792 times

Re: The vaccine

#428676

Postby Mike4 » July 19th, 2021, 8:27 am

dealtn wrote:
servodude wrote:
dealtn wrote:
What's weasel about them? Seriously!

Every eligible adult has been offered a vaccine. There are a few genuine exceptions such as the pregnant, or ill.

Are politician's making claims that everyone has had the benefit of both vaccines, or that the entire population is protected, or that the country is safe? Can you find a single instance of such a ludicrous claim? If you do please feel free to vilify the miscreant to the full extent.

Instead politicians, and their advisors, are using a simple phrase that almost 100% encapsulates the truth. That is the context. What is so difficult for people to understand?


People use the term "weasel words" with respect to language that is used to avoid being forthright.
One thing is said in the knowledge, and with the intent, that something else will will be inferred.

Just to be clear in this case, people don't think it's "weaselly" because there are a small cohort (such as the pregnant) that haven't been offered a vaccine
People think it's "weaselly" because being offered a vaccine doesn't mean that someone is protected against the disease
- it's a semantic loophole

There is no doubt that the phrase is correct: every adult in the UK has been offered a vaccine
It is also literally true to say every adult in Australia has been offered a vaccine
I'm sure you probably realise that doesn't make the vaccine roll outs equivalent?

Have fun
- sd


Nobody is claiming being offered a vaccine is the same as being fully protected. Be that those that say the words, or those that hear them.

It's not a semantic loophole at all. It is a truthful statement that all can understand. What legitimate alternative phraseology do you think should be used that conveys the message?


Missing the point by a country mile.

SD and I are trying (obviously with no success) to say the relevant statistic is the number of people vaccinated, not Johnson's figure of the number of people vaccinated plus the number who refused.

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8910
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3665 times

Re: The vaccine

#428679

Postby redsturgeon » July 19th, 2021, 8:29 am

Yes it is demonstrably true and it is spin rather than a lie.

Unfortunately for many millions, being told that you have been offered the vaccine is not much help when you had no chance of being fully vaccinated until several weeks after the removal of restrictions. Some people's freedom today will come at a cost to others.

The issue is that "being offered the vaccine" has no actual bearing on giving you protection. It is actually having had the vaccine that is the significant factor.

The government could have offered the vaccine to all adults in January could they not?

John

mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: The vaccine

#428689

Postby mc2fool » July 19th, 2021, 9:10 am

redsturgeon wrote:The government could have offered the vaccine to all adults in January could they not?

Errr .... no, there wasn't the supply available, nor the logistics in place, to do so. That's why they only offered it to 60+s in January.

servodude
Lemon Half
Posts: 8271
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:56 am
Has thanked: 4435 times
Been thanked: 3564 times

Re: The vaccine

#428695

Postby servodude » July 19th, 2021, 9:22 am

mc2fool wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:The government could have offered the vaccine to all adults in January could they not?

Errr .... no, there wasn't the supply available, nor the logistics in place, to do so. That's why they only offered it to 60+s in January.


Ah, but you could still make the offers if, as being suggested, said offers do not need to reflect vaccinations (for the purposes of spin) ;)

-sd

Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7084
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1637 times
Been thanked: 3792 times

Re: The vaccine

#428698

Postby Mike4 » July 19th, 2021, 9:33 am

mc2fool wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:The government could have offered the vaccine to all adults in January could they not?

Errr .... no, there wasn't the supply available, nor the logistics in place, to do so. That's why they only offered it to 60+s in January.


But they have now. Mr Zahawi our 'vaccines minister', claimed on the BBC this morning that all adults in the UK have now been offered the vaccine.

So by your logic everyone is now fully protected. Yes?

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8910
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3665 times

Re: The vaccine

#428701

Postby redsturgeon » July 19th, 2021, 9:38 am

mc2fool wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:The government could have offered the vaccine to all adults in January could they not?

Errr .... no, there wasn't the supply available, nor the logistics in place, to do so. That's why they only offered it to 60+s in January.



Err, as I have pointed out the logistics are not in place to do all vaccines today...but the offer has been made.

John


Return to “Coronavirus Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests