Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

The vaccine

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Forum rules
This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: The vaccine

#428704

Postby mc2fool » July 19th, 2021, 9:49 am

servodude wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:The government could have offered the vaccine to all adults in January could they not?

Errr .... no, there wasn't the supply available, nor the logistics in place, to do so. That's why they only offered it to 60+s in January.

Ah, but you could still make the offers if, as being suggested, said offers do not need to reflect vaccinations (for the purposes of spin) ;)

Eh? Of course "offers" does not reflect vaccinations! It reflects the number that the vaccine has been made available to, whether they've taken it up or not.

I don't know which media you guys get your info from, but in everything I've seen ministers are saying both that all adults have been offered a first jab and that 87% of them have had one. It's perfectly valid to say that all adults have been offered one as it conveys that the 13% that haven't had one have not done so for their own reasons, not for any supply and/or logistics reasons.

Or have I missed some statement somewhere, one where the PM or ministers are saying that 100% of adults have been jabbed? If so, link please.

Mike4 wrote:But they have now. Mr Zahawi our 'vaccines minister', claimed on the BBC this morning that all adults in the UK have now been offered the vaccine.

So by your logic everyone is now fully protected. Yes?

No, and I don't see how you think that's "my logic". See above.

redsturgeon wrote:Err, as I have pointed out the logistics are not in place to do all vaccines today...but the offer has been made.

I'm sure the odd case of that is true.

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: The vaccine

#428713

Postby swill453 » July 19th, 2021, 10:13 am

redsturgeon wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:The government could have offered the vaccine to all adults in January could they not?

Errr .... no, there wasn't the supply available, nor the logistics in place, to do so. That's why they only offered it to 60+s in January.

Err, as I have pointed out the logistics are not in place to do all vaccines today...but the offer has been made.

They're only talking about first doses though. If everybody who hasn't had a first dose but plans to get it made an effort today, it might cause a bit of a bottleneck but it would happen before too long.

It's still only a sound byte though.

Scott.

mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: The vaccine

#428736

Postby mc2fool » July 19th, 2021, 11:21 am

swill453 wrote:They're only talking about first doses though. If everybody who hasn't had a first dose but plans to get it made an effort today, it might cause a bit of a bottleneck but it would happen before too long.

It's still only a sound byte though.

Yes, I agree on first doses, and not all govt spokespersons qualify "all adults have been offered the vaccine" as "all adults have been offered the first jab" -- but I've not heard a single one say "all adults have been vaccinated".

Not sure I agree that it's only a sound byte though; in a handling that's been replete with cockups, getting to the point where all adults have been offered the first jab is a notable (albeit perhaps minor) milestone, and it's hardly surprising the govt is trumpeting it. Given all else, I'm ok with letting them have this one....

dealtn
Lemon Half
Posts: 6072
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 2324 times

Re: The vaccine

#428791

Postby dealtn » July 19th, 2021, 2:12 pm

Mike4 wrote:
dealtn wrote:
servodude wrote:
People use the term "weasel words" with respect to language that is used to avoid being forthright.
One thing is said in the knowledge, and with the intent, that something else will will be inferred.

Just to be clear in this case, people don't think it's "weaselly" because there are a small cohort (such as the pregnant) that haven't been offered a vaccine
People think it's "weaselly" because being offered a vaccine doesn't mean that someone is protected against the disease
- it's a semantic loophole

There is no doubt that the phrase is correct: every adult in the UK has been offered a vaccine
It is also literally true to say every adult in Australia has been offered a vaccine
I'm sure you probably realise that doesn't make the vaccine roll outs equivalent?

Have fun
- sd


Nobody is claiming being offered a vaccine is the same as being fully protected. Be that those that say the words, or those that hear them.

It's not a semantic loophole at all. It is a truthful statement that all can understand. What legitimate alternative phraseology do you think should be used that conveys the message?


Missing the point by a country mile.

SD and I are trying (obviously with no success) to say the relevant statistic is the number of people vaccinated, not Johnson's figure of the number of people vaccinated plus the number who refused.


I think it isn't me missing the point, and certainly not by that vague distance.

I, and I suspect the vast majority of the population, fully get that being offered the vaccine, isn't the same as having the vaccine, be that 1 dose, or 2, nor that this in itself provides 100% protection. Can you find a single instance where I have claimed this, or indeed anyone in government or their advisors?

Honestly we all get it, and find it frustrating others persist in this belief that anyone is making any claim along those lines.

The authorities provide a wide range of data, updated usually daily, covering a spectrum of measures of varying granularity. So when they say all adults have been offered the vaccine that is because (except in very limited circumstances) that is true. They also tell us how many vaccinations have taken place in total, by region, daily and cumulatively, by first and second dose, and across various ethnicities.

So please stop the claim the government is suggesting everyone is fully protected and that is the reason they are continuing the policy of easing restrictions. They fully know there are risks. They tolerate the risks of continued easing against the backdrop of those risks and the data as it is updated. That's it.

Not everyone is vaccinated. Not everyone will likely ever be vaccintaed. Even with vaccination not everyone will be protected and safe. People will continue to catch it, be hospitalised by it and indeed die of it. I know that, we know that and the government knows that.

So if you have a different message that you find it difficult to get out please try again. Because we get that the relevant statistics are the numbers vaccinated, preferably both doses, and preferably with a period thereafter for maximum protection to ensue. However, the data that measures the delivery of that is not solely under the control of the authorities - unless you think there is (or should be) compulsion.

jfgw
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2539
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:36 pm
Has thanked: 1097 times
Been thanked: 1146 times

Re: The vaccine

#431728

Postby jfgw » July 31st, 2021, 5:29 pm

First dose uptake in the 18–24 age group has clearly overtaken that in the 25–29 age group:
Image
My graph. Contains public sector information licensed under the Open Government Licence v3.0. : https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/version/3/

While first dose rates are going down, they are still highest in the lower age groups:
Image
My graph. Contains public sector information licensed under the Open Government Licence v3.0. : https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/version/3/


Julian F. G. W.

9873210
Lemon Slice
Posts: 984
Joined: December 9th, 2016, 6:44 am
Has thanked: 226 times
Been thanked: 296 times

Re: The vaccine

#431855

Postby 9873210 » August 1st, 2021, 2:08 pm

Worldwide 4.14 billion doses have now been administered, including 1.05 billion in July.

37.7 million doses per day were administered in the last week.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Julian
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1385
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:58 am
Has thanked: 532 times
Been thanked: 676 times

Re: The vaccine

#431863

Postby Julian » August 1st, 2021, 2:58 pm

So what do people think of this upcoming incentive for young adults to get the vaccine involving, according to the reports I've seen (e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58044088), discounts for Uber and Deliveroo initially with maybe more companies joining the scheme later?

My thoughts are...

1 - Maybe HMG thought it simply impossible to keep it secret but with it currently at the "awaiting further details" stage it seems to me that it has the danger of actually slowing the current vaccine uptake amongst young adults as some wait to find out details of what they could get. Maybe this is news leaking out literally 24 hours beforehand, or maybe HMG can finesse the issue by announcing almost immediately that anyone getting their first jab from tomorrow (or whenever) onwards will be considered eligible for the scheme with full details forthcoming.

2 - I wonder how they will actually implement it in a way that avoids fraud. The BBC news talked about discount codes but the only way I can see that not being open to abuse is if there are millions of discount codes with each very personalised and ideally single-use, e.g. I (if only I were a young adult) might get a set of 10 codes with each, once redeemed, then becoming invalid which would dissuade me from sharing them with others since the one-use nature would see that "sharing" actually being "giving". Uber and Deliveroo back ends can clearly cope with discount codes but I wonder how millions of unique codes would challenge their systems.

3 - Will the discounts only be awarded after someone has had their second jab or might it be some for first jab then some more for 2nd jab? I assume they will want to strongly incentivise people to get both doses but will any incentive be given at the first dose stage?

If it helps with uptake I don't have an issue in principle, some USA states have some very generous schemes and at least some Australian regions were offering the ultimate incentive (free beer), but it'll be interesting to see how the practicalities are handled here and how it goes down with the great British public, or maybe that should be English public since I assume it's a country-by-country initiative.

- Julian

pje16
Lemon Half
Posts: 6050
Joined: May 30th, 2021, 6:01 pm
Has thanked: 1843 times
Been thanked: 2066 times

Re: The vaccine

#431867

Postby pje16 » August 1st, 2021, 3:00 pm

seems as if they are too stooooopid to get it without being bribed
God help this country's future if this is what it takes :roll: :roll:

servodude
Lemon Half
Posts: 8271
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:56 am
Has thanked: 4435 times
Been thanked: 3564 times

Re: The vaccine

#431869

Postby servodude » August 1st, 2021, 3:07 pm

Julian wrote:Maybe HMG thought it simply impossible to keep it secret but with it currently at the "awaiting further details" stage it seems to me that it has the danger of actually slowing the current vaccine uptake amongst young adults as some wait to find out details of what they could get


Yup

Even if it's not true they've Osborne-ed the roll out

-sd

zico
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
Has thanked: 1074 times
Been thanked: 1086 times

Re: The vaccine

#431896

Postby zico » August 1st, 2021, 6:00 pm

If anyone is trying to persuade their "vaccine hesitant" friends to get vaccinated, here are a couple of good graphs that show just how effective vaccines are. Another way of putting it is that hospitalisation risk from Covid for unvaccinated people is 10 times the risk of vaccinated people.

Image


Image

https://www.covid-arg.com/post/how-many ... -an-update

9873210
Lemon Slice
Posts: 984
Joined: December 9th, 2016, 6:44 am
Has thanked: 226 times
Been thanked: 296 times

Re: The vaccine

#431900

Postby 9873210 » August 1st, 2021, 6:17 pm

zico wrote:If anyone is trying to persuade their "vaccine hesitant" friends to get vaccinated, here are a couple of good graphs that show just how effective vaccines are. Another way of putting it is that hospitalisation risk from Covid for unvaccinated people is 10 times the risk of vaccinated people.

Image




I'm having a hard time believing there are only 8.7 million unvaccinated, given the 9+ million under age 14. Somebody with "actuary" in their handle should be more careful. Is it so very hard to say "age 18 to 49"?

gryffron
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3605
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:00 am
Has thanked: 550 times
Been thanked: 1584 times

Re: The vaccine

#431909

Postby gryffron » August 1st, 2021, 8:31 pm

Julian wrote: it has the danger of actually slowing the current vaccine uptake amongst young adults as some wait to find out details of what they could get.

AIUI these benefits are available to any (youth?) who HAVE BEEN jabbed. So it's not a bribe for only those who will be jabbed in the future, which as you say would only encourage people to wait for more "incentives".

Gryff

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1584
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 672 times
Been thanked: 479 times

Re: The vaccine

#431915

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » August 1st, 2021, 9:36 pm

pje16 wrote:seems as if they are too stooooopid to get it without being bribed


Looks like the older generations overseeing the education system have some questions to answer!

Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7084
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1637 times
Been thanked: 3792 times

Re: The vaccine

#431933

Postby Mike4 » August 2nd, 2021, 12:37 am

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:
pje16 wrote:seems as if they are too stooooopid to get it without being bribed


Looks like the older generations overseeing the education system have some questions to answer!


Surely this is a misconception. Education does not make a stupid person more intelligent, it just creates a stooooopid person who is a little more educated.

88V8
Lemon Half
Posts: 5769
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:22 am
Has thanked: 4097 times
Been thanked: 2560 times

Re: The vaccine

#432058

Postby 88V8 » August 2nd, 2021, 3:48 pm

Julian wrote:So what do people think of this upcoming incentive for young adults to get the vaccine ...

Reward the stupid and selfish.
Yeah....

Also heard Kalid Mahmood MP on t'wireless this morning saying that there is a problem with certain 'communities' in Birmingham.
Sari to hear that.

V8

Nimrod103
Lemon Half
Posts: 6469
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:10 pm
Has thanked: 939 times
Been thanked: 2256 times

Re: The vaccine

#432066

Postby Nimrod103 » August 2nd, 2021, 4:05 pm

Mike4 wrote:
ADrunkenMarcus wrote:
pje16 wrote:seems as if they are too stooooopid to get it without being bribed


Looks like the older generations overseeing the education system have some questions to answer!


Surely this is a misconception. Education does not make a stupid person more intelligent, it just creates a stooooopid person who is a little more educated.


True, but if education makes the stupid realize how little they know, it would be an achievement:
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so. “ – Mark Twain

Itsallaguess
Lemon Half
Posts: 9129
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:16 pm
Has thanked: 4140 times
Been thanked: 10023 times

Re: The vaccine

#432993

Postby Itsallaguess » August 6th, 2021, 6:52 pm

Some interesting info today regarding the AstraZeneca vaccine -

AstraZeneca vaccine ‘may protect against Covid for longer and eliminate need for booster’ -

People who have received the AstraZeneca jab may not need a booster because they should be protected against Covid for longer, the firm's chief executive has said.

Pascal Soriot suggested that the Oxford jab may elicit a stronger T-cell response than the vaccines produced by US companies Pfizer and Moderna.

The firm is waiting for further data which may prove that millions of older Britons given the AZ jab do not need another dose, he said.

Ministers are drawing up plans to offer booster shots to 32 million people amid evidence that the protection offered by Covid vaccines gradually wanes.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/covid-news-coronavirus-nhs-app-face-masks-cases-vaccine/

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

ursaminortaur
Lemon Half
Posts: 6944
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Has thanked: 447 times
Been thanked: 1717 times

Re: The vaccine

#433107

Postby ursaminortaur » August 7th, 2021, 12:36 pm

There are reports that a new variant may evade the immune response produced by the current vaccines

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/06/fully-vaccinated-may-transmit-delta-just-as-easily-and-new-variant-shows-signs-of-vaccine-evasion-early-uk-research-suggests/?sh=48e395201ac5


Fully Vaccinated May Transmit Delta Just As Easily—And New Variant Shows Signs Of Vaccine Evasion—Early U.K. Research Suggests
.
.
.
Separately, the public health agency said another variant on the rise in the U.K., a strain known as B.1.621 that was discovered in Colombia, has shown signs of evading the immune response triggered by Covid-19 vaccines or previous infection.

Itsallaguess
Lemon Half
Posts: 9129
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:16 pm
Has thanked: 4140 times
Been thanked: 10023 times

Re: The vaccine

#440390

Postby Itsallaguess » September 7th, 2021, 5:32 pm

The BBC are reporting tonight that the latest vaccine figures show that four out of five people in the UK aged 16 and over are now fully vaccinated against Covid-19.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

AWOL
Lemon Slice
Posts: 563
Joined: October 20th, 2020, 5:08 pm
Has thanked: 366 times
Been thanked: 277 times

Re: The vaccine

#440478

Postby AWOL » September 7th, 2021, 11:13 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:There are reports that a new variant may evade the immune response produced by the current vaccines

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/06/fully-vaccinated-may-transmit-delta-just-as-easily-and-new-variant-shows-signs-of-vaccine-evasion-early-uk-research-suggests/?sh=48e395201ac5


Fully Vaccinated May Transmit Delta Just As Easily—And New Variant Shows Signs Of Vaccine Evasion—Early U.K. Research Suggests
.
.
.
Separately, the public health agency said another variant on the rise in the U.K., a strain known as B.1.621 that was discovered in Colombia, has shown signs of evading the immune response triggered by Covid-19 vaccines or previous infection.


...Bummer! I preferred the AZN vaccine makes one invincible story.


Return to “Coronavirus Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests