Internal work in the house eg cooker (COVID regs)

[Sunnypad]

Moderator Message:
This Coronavirus discussion isn't really a DAK. Moving to the appropriate board eith a link left, end minor edit to subject title (chas49)

Hi there

I'm very confused about what is legally permitted at the moment.

My cooker is partly broken and I'm mostly cooking via microwave. Is it legal for me to get a new cooker? It's integrated so a big job.

I can see that companies are doing this kind of work but I realise that doesn't necessarily mean it's okay legally.

Thank you.

[swill453]

Tradespeople generally are allowed in Tier 4.

Scott.

[Mike4]

Tradespeople generally are allowed in Tier 4.

Scott.

As a tradesperson myself, I keep a careful eye on this. The tiers have been abandoned according to the gov't web page that used to say what the were.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/full-list-o ... rs-by-area

The gummint site now says:

"You must not leave, or be outside of your home except where necessary. You may leave the home to:

shop for basic necessities, for you or a vulnerable person
go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services, if you cannot reasonably do so from home"

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lo ... ay-at-home

So by extension if one's work is fitting cookers, which obviously cannot reasonably be done "from home", it must be legal.

[Sunnypad]

Thank you.

[redsturgeon]

Legal or not it is up to each of us to make our own assessments as to the risks involved in any type of interaction like this.

The potential for infection may be low but is not zero. The risks can be mitigated by masks, visors, distancing, minimising time spent in close proximity to the tradesperson and ensuring good ventilation and cleaning of surfaces.

The risk to be taken by any person can really only be decided on an individual basis taking into account: age, health factors, interactions with other household members and potential wider implications of catching the virus. I could understand it if a fit and healthy 25 year old who can easily work from home and lives alone feels free to accept a higher level of personal risk than an older person with health issues who is a carer for another vulnerable person or whose job would mean that catching the virus would have more serious implications.

John

[pochisoldi]

Tradespeople generally are allowed in Tier 4.

Scott.

As a tradesperson myself, I keep a careful eye on this. The tiers have been abandoned according to the gov't web page that used to say what the were.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/full-list-o ... rs-by-area

The gummint site now says:

"You must not leave, or be outside of your home except where necessary. You may leave the home to:

shop for basic necessities, for you or a vulnerable person
go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services, if you cannot reasonably do so from home"

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lo ... ay-at-home

So by extension if one's work is fitting cookers, which obviously cannot reasonably be done "from home", it must be legal.

The tier system has NOT been abandoned.
Legally the whole of England are is in tier 4, and subject to a slightly tweaked version of the previous Tier 4 regs.

I could comment further, but for now:
Here are the current regulations (="The Rules"):
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents

Note that this is the original statutory instrument with the latest amendments applied. (The page gets updated with rule changes and area tier designations as each amendment is applied, so is worth bookmarking).

This is the SI which brought in the latest "lockdown" It's less useful as it only shows amendments to existing legislation (it's like a set of instructions telling you what to add and delete):
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/202 ... tents/made

I could comment on the differences between Lockdown 2.1 and 3.0, but it would be inappropriate for DAK.

Pochisoldi

[UncleEbenezer]

I had a plumber in on Wednesday. He's done a substantial job for me before, so I know him slightly. Serviced the boiler, and showed me where to adjust the pressure if it drops too low again[1].

As I remarked to him, he was probably the only person I'm allowed to have in for the foreseeable, as he was here professionally.

[1] Though if that happens within the year before "next service due", I might also want to investigate what's causing it.

[Mike4]

Tradespeople generally are allowed in Tier 4.

Scott.

As a tradesperson myself, I keep a careful eye on this. The tiers have been abandoned according to the gov't web page that used to say what the were.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/full-list-o ... rs-by-area

The gummint site now says:

"You must not leave, or be outside of your home except where necessary. You may leave the home to:

shop for basic necessities, for you or a vulnerable person
go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services, if you cannot reasonably do so from home"

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lo ... ay-at-home

So by extension if one's work is fitting cookers, which obviously cannot reasonably be done "from home", it must be legal.

The tier system has NOT been abandoned.
Legally the whole of England are is in tier 4, and subject to a slightly tweaked version of the previous Tier 4 regs.

I could comment further, but for now:
Here are the current regulations (="The Rules"):
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents

Note that this is the original statutory instrument with the latest amendments applied. (The page gets updated with rule changes and area tier designations as each amendment is applied, so is worth bookmarking).

This is the SI which brought in the latest "lockdown" It's less useful as it only shows amendments to existing legislation (it's like a set of instructions telling you what to add and delete):
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/202 ... tents/made

I could comment on the differences between Lockdown 2.1 and 3.0, but it would be inappropriate for DAK.

Pochisoldi

Mad isn't it. From the government website page I gave above, giving government Guidance on Tiers:

"Guidance
Full list of local restriction tiers by area
This page sets out the full list of local restriction tiers by area from 31 December.

Published 26 November 2020
Last updated 4 January 2021 — see all updates
From:
Department of Health and Social Care
This guidance was withdrawn on 4 January 2021
replaced by National lockdown - Stay at Home"

[Sussexlad]

Well I had Lowri Beck on behalf of Avro email me yesterday, re arranging an appointment to fit a smart meter, so I'm assuming such work is OK! I've previously resisted the opportunity but my wife prefers a situation where she wont have to read the meters, so I've finally conceded. I've booked an appointment for mid February and as we're due our jabs tomorrow, fingers crossed, I'm hoping any risk will be minimal but I'll still be being careful.

[Mike4]

Well I had Lowri Beck on behalf of Avro email me yesterday, re arranging an appointment to fit a smart meter, so I'm assuming such work is OK!

I'd refer you to redsturgeon's post above https://lemonfool.co.uk/posting.php?mod ... 1#pr374744

It may be "OK" legally but the people in your house doing the meter swaps still represent a COVID risk as 1) they visit multiple households every day so are more likely to be infection carriers than people self-locking-down, and 2) not wishing to be classist but few tradespeople out there seem to take COVID seriously at all. So observe what precautions they take in your house (masks, social distancing etc) or perhaps fail to take, because this will show how they behaved in the dozens of other households they will have recently visited and possibly picked up an infection.

Secondly your vaccine injection does not confer 100% invulnerability on you. A lot of people seem to think it does but as time passes and vaccinated people turn out to still get COVID, this will become clearer.

[Sussexlad]

Well I had Lowri Beck on behalf of Avro email me yesterday, re arranging an appointment to fit a smart meter, so I'm assuming such work is OK!

Secondly your vaccine injection does not confer 100% invulnerability on you. A lot of people seem to think it does but as time passes and vaccinated people turn out to still get COVID, this will become clearer.

I do understand that you're still vulnerable to a degree but the message appears to be that it will be less serious. Having said that, I'll take your advice and cancel the appointment.

Thanks.

P.S. Appointment cancelled !!

[quelquod]

I do understand that you're still vulnerable to a degree but the message appears to be that it will be less serious. Having said that, I'll take your advice and cancel the appointment.

I’m completely unsure what the 70% ‘effective’ figure quoted for the Oxford virus vaccine represents. Is it that 30% of all age groups are not helped by it or some other measure of effectiveness? It’s not a figure that’s used much in the headlines though the Pfizer at 95% (I suppose measured in the same way) sounds a whole world better. TBH 70% is a figure that in my previous employment would be seen as a bad fail where we worked in terms of ppm (parts per million) so it’s not one that gives me any confidence at all. The annual flu vaccine I believe has around the same quoted ‘effectiveness’ again without much definition, but I never bother with that.

[dealtn]

Legal or not it is up to each of us to make our own assessments as to the risks involved in any type of interaction like this.

Agreed, including the risks to health and general well being from not having a working cooker.

[Dod101]

I do understand that you're still vulnerable to a degree but the message appears to be that it will be less serious. Having said that, I'll take your advice and cancel the appointment.

I’m completely unsure what the 70% ‘effective’ figure quoted for the Oxford virus vaccine represents. Is it that 30% of all age groups are not helped by it or some other measure of effectiveness? It’s not a figure that’s used much in the headlines though the Pfizer at 95% (I suppose measured in the same way) sounds a whole world better. TBH 70% is a figure that in my previous employment would be seen as a bad fail where we worked in terms of ppm (parts per million) so it’s not one that gives me any confidence at all. The annual flu vaccine I believe has around the same quoted ‘effectiveness’ again without much definition, but I never bother with that.

I gather the annual flu vaccine is only about 60% effective so it seems to me that anything over that is pretty good. We all have to live or is the idea that we all lock ourselves in our homes until this has passed? And I have had the occasional tradesperson in my house and they seem to me to be very careful about masks and so on. Maybe I was just lucky or my tradesperson's father died of Covid or something.

Dod

[Mike4]

Legal or not it is up to each of us to make our own assessments as to the risks involved in any type of interaction like this.

Agreed, including the risks to health and general well being from not having a working cooker.

I dunno about you or the OP, but I would far rather have a broken cooker than risk being ill with COVID-19 for three weeks and a potential hospital stay, or death even.

But as our Mr Sturgeon says, this is an assessment each of us will weight differently.

My own policy regarding carrying out boiler repairs may be a good idea for the OP. Until the COVID situation improves I am only accepting repair work where the house is empty, i.e. vacant or the occupiers can find somewhere else to scram off to for the duration on my visit. The OP could have the cooker done while they are out at work or whatever.

No matter how keen people say they are to wear masks, socially distance etc I find they often only do so intermittently in their own homes, and I've had enough of the risk. So now my policy is to only work in empty houses or for people who are medically shielding or have some sort of special need.

[dealtn]

Legal or not it is up to each of us to make our own assessments as to the risks involved in any type of interaction like this.

Agreed, including the risks to health and general well being from not having a working cooker.

I dunno about you or the OP, but I would far rather have a broken cooker than risk being ill with COVID-19 for three weeks and a potential hospital stay, or death even.

But as our Mr Sturgeon says, this is an assessment each of us will weight differently.

My own policy regarding carrying out boiler repairs may be a good idea for the OP. Until the COVID situation improves I am only accepting repair work where the house is empty, i.e. vacant or the occupiers can find somewhere else to scram off to for the duration on my visit. The OP could have the cooker done while they are out at work or whatever.

No matter how keen people say they are to wear masks, socially distance etc I find they often only do so intermittently in their own homes, and I've had enough of the risk. So now my policy is to only work in empty houses or for people who are medically shielding or have some sort of special need.

I think we are basically agreeing. There are all sorts of risks, of varying magnitudes, across all aspects of life. We all decide what we are happy with, and how we mitigate against them. As long as our own risks aren't affected by other's actions we shouldn't judge how others do this either.

The "kitchen fitter" or "bolier repairer" faces risks in driving to the house or place of work, which might result in a long hospital stay or even death, but this is partially mitigated by driving carefully, avoiding close contact with others, wearing not a mask, but a seat belt etc.

The person whose house it is has the risks of potentially not having hot food, or not having working central heating, and the potential health consequences of such. Now it could be they are happier to use a microwave, or a plug in electric fan heater, after a "risk assessment" rather than a repair/replacement, or it could be they prefer the latter if the works are considered "safe".

But seeing as this is DAK, it isn't against either the letter, or spirit, of the law to have people into your home to do "work".

[jfgw]

Personally, I would rather go into an occupied home with doors and windows open than an unventilated one where the residents had just left or were staying in a different part of the house. The virus can float around in low-RH air for hours.

There is probably an advantage for boiler-fixers in that the house may be freezing cold and, therefore, the RH relatively high!

An integrated electric oven is actually not usually a big job. Most are held in by 2 or 4 screws; remove these and it should slide out. Some under-counter double ovens are on legs. If it is under-counter, it will probably sit on the floor once removed (on a mat or sheet) as long as the cable is long enough. If it is in-column, it will be necessary to stand it on something (the old oven can usually sit on the new (packaged) one to allow disconnection, then swap them over).

A useful tip for tradespeople is to not bath or shower for at least a week. This encourages both social distancing and the provision of ventilation.


Julian F. G. W.

[UncleEbenezer]

Personally, I would rather go into an occupied home with doors and windows open than an unventilated one where the residents had just left or were staying in a different part of the house. The virus can float around in low-RH air for hours.

Took me a moment to figure out RH. Didn't know it affected the virus.

A useful tip for tradespeople is to not bath or shower for at least a week. This encourages both social distancing and the provision of ventilation.

Julian F. G. W.

Now you're almost heading towards paradox territory. If I were happy not to bath or shower for a while, I wouldn't've felt it urgent to have the boiler seen to. Apply that logic to the tradesman himself, and ...

Before covid I always thought of going to a public baths for a shower an ultimate fallback against boiler/plumbing failure at home. Now it's the river, and it's likely to be at least April - more usually May - before I use that by choice.

[Dod101]

[No matter how keen people say they are to wear masks, socially distance etc I find they often only do so intermittently in their own homes, and I've had enough of the risk. So now my policy is to only work in empty houses or for people who are medically shielding or have some sort of special need.

These comments illustrate the confusion over the whole thing because for all you know the atmosphere in the house could be filled with Covid particles or do you insist that all the windows are opened for a couple of hours before and during your visit or that the (absent) customers sign an affidavit that they do not have Covid, that every surface has been sanitised before your visit and so on?

Obviously you are entitled to make whatever conditions you want, but in the end we are back to my analogy about cars travelling no faster than 15 mph in order to stop accidents or we could go back to the man with the red flag.

Dod

[Dod101]

But seeing as this is DAK, it isn't against either the letter, or spirit, of the law to have people into your home to do "work".

Nope. It was moved from DAK early on.

Dod