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False and misleading claims about Covid

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
redsturgeon
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False and misleading claims about Covid

#377324

Postby redsturgeon » January 15th, 2021, 6:40 am

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/ ... vid-column

Toby Young rebuked over claims regarding herd immunity and prior immunity from colds.

John

Spet0789
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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377331

Postby Spet0789 » January 15th, 2021, 7:53 am

redsturgeon wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/14/daily-telegraph-rebuked-over-toby-youngs-herd-immunity-covid-column

Toby Young rebuked over claims regarding herd immunity and prior immunity from colds.

John


The Telegraph has declined so far. It’s just a comic these days. No commitment to truth whatsoever.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377333

Postby jackdaww » January 15th, 2021, 8:01 am

dr vernon coleman raised concerns re the vaccine (which one ?) making some recipients ill .

:?

Arborbridge
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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377334

Postby Arborbridge » January 15th, 2021, 8:09 am

He has continued to argue strongly against lockdowns and on Wednesday called news coverage of the growing death toll from the virus “hysterical”.


Toby Young is quoted as having said this recently. Having admitted he was wrong about his statements last year, you would think he would just be a little more circumspect, cautious, repentent even embarassed - but he seems to be proceeding in a similar frame of mind. The mindset is to cast doubt on official findings and reporting about what is going on out there - but what motivates these types is difficult to understand, at least for me.


Arb.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377351

Postby Mike4 » January 15th, 2021, 8:51 am

Arborbridge wrote:
He has continued to argue strongly against lockdowns and on Wednesday called news coverage of the growing death toll from the virus “hysterical”.


Toby Young is quoted as having said this recently. Having admitted he was wrong about his statements last year, you would think he would just be a little more circumspect, cautious, repentent even embarassed - but he seems to be proceeding in a similar frame of mind. The mindset is to cast doubt on official findings and reporting about what is going on out there - but what motivates these types is difficult to understand, at least for me.




Well he would say that wouldn't he?

His goal appears to be to forge a reputation as a professional sceptic (he runs lockdownsceptics dot something or other) so he will seize on any angle that presents itself as a route to gaining fame and adulation from all the knuckle-dragging meatheads who think COVID is a fiction created to control us all.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377352

Postby swill453 » January 15th, 2021, 8:54 am

Regarding herd immunity in particular, I just posted in the Chat thread a link to an article discussing Manaus in Brazil viewtopic.php?f=98&t=22218&p=377348#p377348

Scott.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377355

Postby JohnB » January 15th, 2021, 9:05 am

Hanna Dean, who delights in posting videos of empty hospital corridors, has been fined £200. https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1901 ... fined-200/

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377356

Postby johnhemming » January 15th, 2021, 9:07 am

redsturgeon wrote:Toby Young rebuked over claims regarding herd immunity and prior immunity from colds.

The difficulty here is that
a) There is evidence of some herd immunity in some trust areas in London
b) It is recognised that there is prior immunity from coronaviruses, but most common colds are caused by rhinoviruses (some by coronaviruses).

Hence although I have not looked at the IPSO analysis and don't intent to spend any time on this superficially there are some issues.

I am, however, not a fan of the way Toby Young has argued his case.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377357

Postby GoSeigen » January 15th, 2021, 9:09 am

swill453 wrote:Regarding herd immunity in particular, I just posted in the Chat thread a link to an article discussing Manaus in Brazil viewtopic.php?f=98&t=22218&p=377348#p377348

Scott.


Article is just plain wrong. It claims 1193 deaths/million inhabitants and that this is a far worse outcome than countries with lockdown and other mitigation giving the UK as an example, yet the UK has seen 1263 deaths/million as of today. The problem is the article uses an incomplete picture and is not comparing like with like, the most obvious problem being that Manaus is equatorial/southern hemisphere, while the UK and others are temperate northern hemisphere countries. Further, a comparison with cities in those countries might well look even less supportive of their conclusions.

GS

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377358

Postby GoSeigen » January 15th, 2021, 9:15 am

JohnB wrote:Hanna Dean, who delights in posting videos of empty hospital corridors, has been fined £200. https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1901 ... fined-200/


LOL, it's like taking pictures of your garden and neighbours' gardens and using the lack of lions in the pictures to claim lions are a hoax and do not exist.


In case anyone doubts lions exist, here is a picture of some relaxing in someone's garden:

https://twitter.com/SABreakingNews/stat ... 7436635136


GS

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377364

Postby Arborbridge » January 15th, 2021, 9:36 am

GoSeigen wrote:
JohnB wrote:Hanna Dean, who delights in posting videos of empty hospital corridors, has been fined £200. https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1901 ... fined-200/


LOL, it's like taking pictures of your garden and neighbours' gardens and using the lack of lions in the pictures to claim lions are a hoax and do not exist.


In case anyone doubts lions exist, here is a picture of some relaxing in someone's garden:

https://twitter.com/SABreakingNews/stat ... 7436635136


GS


I have the same question as about Toby Young - why do people do this? What's in it for them? Are they just nutters who become obsessed or is the incentive financial? How does it benefit this woman or anyone to post pictures of empty wards, when with a moment's thought shows corridors are not wards or ICUs?

I had the same feeling on a totally different subject - the insurrection at Capitol Hill. It's a generic question: why do people become so obsessed, obsessed to the point a near lunacy and against any reasonable rationale?

Arb.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377367

Postby johnhemming » January 15th, 2021, 9:39 am

GoSeigen wrote:Article is just plain wrong. It claims 1193 deaths/million inhabitants and that this is a far worse outcome than countries with lockdown and other mitigation giving the UK as an example, yet the UK has seen 1263 deaths/million as of today.


Additionally Manaus has had various sorts of restrictions. I have, however, posted in the chat thread my own research which leads me to conclude that the 76% infection rate from earlier this year in Manaus is a material over statement.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377372

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » January 15th, 2021, 9:57 am

redsturgeon wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/14/daily-telegraph-rebuked-over-toby-youngs-herd-immunity-covid-column

Toby Young rebuked over claims regarding herd immunity and prior immunity from colds.

John

I've no wish to hijack the thread. If that's perceived just remove the post please. I thought it would augment this discussion to show this link to a video about the abuse that NHS employees are receiving.

Covid: NHS doctor 'receives 20 to 30 abusive messages a day

There will always be those who live on the fringe of society who take great pleasure in harassing and bullying others. They are in the minority though. There are hundreds of thousands of people treating Covid 19. Consummate professionals. It's been a tough year and we're not out of the woods yet. I can't imagine what those who work in the NHS are going through now. I haven't seen the thin white line break though.

Thank you does seem to fall very short.

AiY

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377373

Postby XFool » January 15th, 2021, 9:58 am

redsturgeon wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/14/daily-telegraph-rebuked-over-toby-youngs-herd-immunity-covid-column

Toby Young rebuked over claims regarding herd immunity and prior immunity from colds.

John

About time, IMO.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377375

Postby XFool » January 15th, 2021, 10:04 am

Arborbridge wrote:
He has continued to argue strongly against lockdowns and on Wednesday called news coverage of the growing death toll from the virus “hysterical”.

Toby Young is quoted as having said this recently. Having admitted he was wrong about his statements last year, you would think he would just be a little more circumspect, cautious, repentent even embarassed - but he seems to be proceeding in a similar frame of mind.

Yeah. But he was still banging away quoting Dr Sunetra Gupta's (Great Barrington Declaration) prediction of how many millions were going to die from lockdowns.

Why should we believe now somebody who has been wrong with every prediction so far?

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377383

Postby Stonge » January 15th, 2021, 10:23 am

Arborbridge wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
JohnB wrote:Hanna Dean, who delights in posting videos of empty hospital corridors, has been fined £200. https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1901 ... fined-200/


LOL, it's like taking pictures of your garden and neighbours' gardens and using the lack of lions in the pictures to claim lions are a hoax and do not exist.


In case anyone doubts lions exist, here is a picture of some relaxing in someone's garden:

https://twitter.com/SABreakingNews/stat ... 7436635136


GS


I have the same question as about Toby Young - why do people do this? What's in it for them? Are they just nutters who become obsessed or is the incentive financial? How does it benefit this woman or anyone to post pictures of empty wards, when with a moment's thought shows corridors are not wards or ICUs?

I had the same feeling on a totally different subject - the insurrection at Capitol Hill. It's a generic question: why do people become so obsessed, obsessed to the point a near lunacy and against any reasonable rationale?

Arb.


If we are all going insane how would we know? There seems to be plenty of evidence: Brexit, Trump, Virus deniers etc. etc. etc.

Pollution, social media? Why?

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377395

Postby Arborbridge » January 15th, 2021, 10:51 am

XFool wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
He has continued to argue strongly against lockdowns and on Wednesday called news coverage of the growing death toll from the virus “hysterical”.

Toby Young is quoted as having said this recently. Having admitted he was wrong about his statements last year, you would think he would just be a little more circumspect, cautious, repentent even embarassed - but he seems to be proceeding in a similar frame of mind.

Yeah. But he was still banging away quoting Dr Sunetra Gupta's (Great Barrington Declaration) prediction of how many millions were going to die from lockdowns.

Why should we believe now somebody who has been wrong with every prediction so far?



Indeed - rationally we wouldn't ergo Toby Young's opinion is irrational :)

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377400

Postby bluedonkey » January 15th, 2021, 10:54 am

Spet0789 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/jan/14/daily-telegraph-rebuked-over-toby-youngs-herd-immunity-covid-column

Toby Young rebuked over claims regarding herd immunity and prior immunity from colds.

John

The Telegraph has declined so far. It’s just a comic these days. No commitment to truth whatsoever.

That's so true. I remember the Telegraph in the 1970s: superb news coverage, for both national and international news. Completely different paper now.

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377413

Postby 88V8 » January 15th, 2021, 11:09 am

bluedonkey wrote:That's so true. I remember the Telegraph in the 1970s: superb news coverage, for both national and international news. Completely different paper now.

Good journalism costs money.
Boots on the ground.
Easier just to parrot rubbish.
And as fewer and fewer people are willing to pay for mainstream news, the decline will on the whole continue.

V8

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Re: False and misleading claims about Covid

#377417

Postby XFool » January 15th, 2021, 11:15 am

Stonge wrote:If we are all going insane how would we know? There seems to be plenty of evidence: Brexit, Trump, Virus deniers etc. etc. etc.

Pollution, social media? Why?

Perhaps we are entering a strange new 'post politics' world?

It sometimes feels to me we are increasingly moving out of a 'conventional' political environment: Where people reasonably disagree over how to share out the pie, how to organise to maximise the size of the pie and over social and moral judgements; into a 'new politics', which feels increasingly to me to be based on fundamental religious beliefs, where people disagree over reality itself.

I would suggest religious beliefs generally trump(!) facts and reality.


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