Snap lockdown in Western Australia

[Lootman]

Whatever other points you choose to make (or more typically obfuscate when it gets tough) you can't seem to help yourself but to resort to ad-hominem arguments and related language. Your latest effort is the gratuitous use of "begging" in

"It is easy to imagine a situation in 6 months time when you can freely travel between Europe and North America, but Australia will still be off limits because its population has had only minimal exposure and immunity to the virus and is begging the UK and US for supplies."

I can't imagine that situation, as CSL is planning to produce at least 30M (I have read as high as 50M) doses onshore, in Melbourne I believe, of the AZN vaccine under license

"under license" being the operative term. What is your plan B if the license is not granted?

And "begging" isn't an inaccurate term given that the EU is currently begging the UK to export to them.

The irony of you accusing someone of being ad hominem and then throwing out terms like "obfuscate" and "gratuitous" is not lost on readers, I feel sure. A useful rule of thumb in polite debates is to avoid adjectives and adverbs, and to focus on the topic and not the person.

[XFool]

Real world events cannot be tackled simply as just a "political issue". Those who think it can generally seem to be the same people pushing various fairy stories about the pandemic. IMO.

Obviously I disagree.

The definition of the problem may indeed be a technical matter. But what to do about it has to involve the priorities of the people, and not just a panel of narrow "experts".

When it comes to dealing with a viral pandemic give be a narrow "expert" any day of the week, in preference to political commentators and opinionated hacks!

[Lootman]

Real world events cannot be tackled simply as just a "political issue". Those who think it can generally seem to be the same people pushing various fairy stories about the pandemic. IMO.

Obviously I disagree.

The definition of the problem may indeed be a technical matter. But what to do about it has to involve the priorities of the people, and not just a panel of narrow "experts".

When it comes to dealing with a viral pandemic give me a narrow "expert" any day of the week, in preference to political commentators and opinionated hacks!

At one point in my career, presumably to atone for some previous sin on my part, I was told I had to manage the company's IT department. This was an interesting choice to put me, a liberal arts graduate, in charge of a bunch of techy types.

But for two years that is what I did. And it was an eye opener because these people were very different from me. They were definitely smart, just in a very different way. Their knowledge was an inch wide and a mile deep. Mine was an inch deep and a mile wide.

It worked but only because I developed ways of knowing which expert was giving good advice and which were not, all whilst not understanding what any of them were saying half the time.

The point being here that political leaders are typically like BoJo, with an arts degree. Yet they have to decide between conflicting advice from experts in topics that they do not get. I have to assume that they too learn which experts to listen to, and then temper that advice with what they know is politically acceptable.

By the way, add Belgium and Hungary today to the countries with protests and riots against excess lockdowns. Ignore the people at your peril, even if you find an expert to agree with you.

[XFool]

At one point in my career, presumably to atone for some previous sin on my part, I was told I had to manage the company's IT department. This was an interesting choice to put me, a liberal arts graduate, in charge of a bunch of techy types.

But for two years that is what I did. And it was an eye opener because these people were very different from me. They were definitely smart, just in a very different way. Their knowledge was an inch wide and a mile deep. Mine was an inch deep and a mile wide.

You see, that's what worries me.

It worked but only because I developed ways of knowing which expert was giving good advice and which were not, all whilst not understanding what any of them were saying half the time.

I must say, that is a useful skill to have.

I wonder what the IT guys thought of you?

The point being here that political leaders are typically like BoJo, with an arts degree. Yet they have to decide between conflicting advice from experts in topics that they do not get. I have to assume that they too learn which experts to listen to, and then temper that advice with what they know is politically acceptable.

Sure. Meanwhile we have 'noises off' from self-styled "sceptics" to contend with. I guess Boris has that problem too.

[Newroad]

Hi Lootman.

Re

"... "under license" being the operative term. What is your plan B if the license is not granted? ..."

you had the link - all that was required was to read it (my bold and underline)

"... That is why Australia has a contract with AstraZeneca and CSL for the onshore manufacture of approximately 50 million doses ... these doses are being manufactured in Melbourne ..."

As to obfuscate and gratuitous, I think the above is a clear example of the former and your use of "begging" an example of the latter. In short, they are descriptive and evidence-based, the attempt to set up a straw-man for the latter by switching from Australia to the EU notwithstanding.

Regards, Newroad

[Lootman]

Hi Lootman.Re "... "under license" being the operative term. What is your plan B if the license is not granted? ..."

you had the link - all that was required was to read it (my bold and underline)

"... That is why Australia has a contract with AstraZeneca and CSL for the onshore manufacture of approximately 50 million doses ... these doses are being manufactured in Melbourne ..."

The EU has a contract with AZN as well, but they still are not getting what they want and are whining. I hope your plan for Australia is more than being in the EU's situation in a few months time. By which time all vulnerable groups in the UK will have been jabbed.

[Newroad]

Let me spell it out, Lootman.

Though simply reading the link would have done, as previously suggested. CSL will do the manufacture (of the c50M doses) - AZN have already agreed to let them do it.

There are a small number of early doses (c4M) which were due to come from Europe, which may or may not now be delayed, but the rest are onshore (of Australia) manufacture.

Regards, Newroad

[88V8]

I think on balance I'm with Australia.
They make good use of their islandness, as with their illegal immigrants.

As for 'ask the people', sometimes that's tantamount to 'ask the idiots'.

I still wish our borders closed. Yes, we are a transport hub, but that is not our problem.

V8

[Lootman]

CSL will do the manufacture (of the c50M doses) - AZN have already agreed to let them do it. There are a small number of early doses (c4M) which were due to come from Europe, which may or may not now be delayed, but the rest are onshore (of Australia) manufacture.

Any which way you look at it, Australia is behind the curve on vaccinations. Whether that makes more sense that holding an entire country captive is a matter of opinion.

I think on balance I'm with Australia. They make good use of their islandness, as with their illegal immigrants.

As for 'ask the people', sometimes that's tantamount to 'ask the idiots'.

I still wish our borders closed. Yes, we are a transport hub, but that is not our problem.

If you believe that your fellow citizens and voters are idiots then you should probably emigrate from wherever you are. I actually trust the people more than politicians, and worry about those who wish to give more power to politicians. As Reagan said long ago: "Government is not the solution; government is the problem".

But of course we cannot discuss the problem here.

[88V8]

If you believe that your fellow citizens and voters are idiots then you should probably emigrate from wherever you are. I actually trust the people more than politicians, and worry about those who wish to give more power to politicians.
But of course we cannot discuss the problem here.

Having elected the govt, in time of war one does not expect them to conduct opinion polls about strategy, but I suspect that half the problem is BoJo staring into focus group crystal balls. As you say, we aren't supposed to discuss that here. Other than peripherally of course.

Prof Sharon Peacock was on Times Radio again this morning, Stig was pressing her gently about whether we should be closing our borders. She danced diplomatically around the issue but it's pretty clear what she thinks. We are importing and exporting variants, some of which are not good news.

V8

[XFool]

If you believe that your fellow citizens and voters are idiots then you should probably emigrate from wherever you are. I actually trust the people more than politicians, and worry about those who wish to give more power to politicians.

Having elected the govt, in time of war one does not expect them to conduct opinion polls about strategy...

Quite so.

[Newroad]

Hi V8 and XFool.

I also agree. Few would disagree with Lootman's "ask the people" principle. As you both note, elections do this in practise - and we then expect politicians to govern - if we're lucky, they do so as statesmen.

Sometime you get unlucky - you voted a government in expecting a given scenario (or maybe you didn't and others voted them in) - but the scenario changes. Some jurisdictions have a means to address this, most don't, or the burden to change is too high. Hence, we're back to expecting our elected politicians to govern - and hope they do an adequate or better job.

What I suspect Lootman pines for* is some kind of ancient Athenian (or perhaps, modern Swiss at some level) style democracy. It's not coming quickly in the anglophone modern world. Further, it's not clear the outcome would necessarily be what he wanted anyway - it might even have involved an earlier or more draconian lockdown in some places (remember, many voters are old and at increased relative risk from Covid-19).

Regards, Newroad

* whether from a fundamental belief or because the current situation appears not to suit him

[88V8]

..... modern Swiss at some level, style democracy. ..... whether from a fundamental belief or because the current situation appears not to suit him

My sister has lived in Switzerland for nigh on forty years. Runs a successful restaurant/hotel there.
She has nothing good to say about the Govt response. Almost no financial support, and when a lockdown was needed it took over two weeks for the cantons to agree.
Sometimes one can have too much democracy.

I wonder if Loot is part of the 1% that is responsible for 80% of aviation emissions, and more to the point a goodly percentage of virus spreading.

V8

and whilst writing this, the GP called to arrange my jab on Sunday.... hooray.

[XFool]

Interesting!

Why countries with 'loose', rule-breaking cultures have been hit harder by Covid
Michele Gelfand

The Guardian

Our research shows how ‘tighter’ societies do better – and how the rest must learn to adapt in order to defeat the pandemic

"• Michele Gelfand is a professor at the University of Maryland, and the author of Rule Makers, Rule Breakers: How Tight and Loose Cultures Wire Our World"

And:

'We’re in fine fettle': joy on Isle of Man as Covid lockdown ends

The Guardian

As pubs and cafes bustle back to life, islanders are thankful for ‘that bit of water between us and UK’

The chief minister, Howard Quayle, praised the way islanders had responded. “There’s a collective determination, a sense of duty and community spirit. The public have followed all the rules.”

[Lootman]

Few would disagree with Lootman's "ask the people" principle. As you both note, elections do this in practise - and we then expect politicians to govern - if we're lucky, they do so as statesmen.

What I suspect Lootman pines for* is some kind of ancient Athenian (or perhaps, modern Swiss at some level) style democracy. It's not coming quickly in the anglophone modern world. Further, it's not clear the outcome would necessarily be what he wanted anyway - it might even have involved an earlier or more draconian lockdown in some places (remember, many voters are old and at increased relative risk from Covid-19).

* whether from a fundamental belief or because the current situation appears not to suit him

The anglophone world actually has a good example of much more democracy than the "once every 5 years" model. In the US there is at least one election each year depending on location. There can be two or three in some years. And each is accompanied by propositions or voter initiatives that crucially allow people to cut across party positions and opine on a specific issue.

I do think that is a superior model. Perhaps in the future there will be a fast and easy way that everyone can securely vote instantly and electronically so that real-time decisions can be made on things like this. It would certainly keep politicians on their toes.

I wonder if Loot is part of the 1% that is responsible for 80% of aviation emissions, and more to the point a goodly percentage of virus spreading.

I do fly a lot, and pay a lot to do so, including hefty amounts of air passenger tax. My conscience is clear.

I have not spread any virus to the best of my knowledge, and have been tested negative a few times.

[Newroad]

Evening All.

Continuing the observation - Perth in lockdown - some good, some bad, some supportive, some sad.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-02/this-is-perth-in-lockdown/13108940

Whatever else though, it does look like a "proper" lockdown.

Regards, Newroad

[Mike4]

I have not spread any virus to the best of my knowledge

You and 200,000,000 others.

[Lootman]

I have not spread any virus to the best of my knowledge

You and 200,000,000 others.

Of course, because the vast majority of people have not had the virus.

[Mike4]

I have not spread any virus to the best of my knowledge

You and 200,000,000 others.

Of course, because the vast majority of people have not had the virus.

Only takes say, 0.1%

[Lootman]

You and 200,000,000 others.

Of course, because the vast majority of people have not had the virus.

Only takes say, 0.1%

Very good odds then.