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AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Julian
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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403747

Postby Julian » April 12th, 2021, 10:03 pm

absolutezero wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Short answer: Politics.
Long answer: EU sour grapes wanting to make a British product look bad - purely out of spite.

Yet the "Astra" bit of "AZ" is Swedish. Last time I looked, that was in the EU. Only the "Zeneca" bit is originally British. It was the Pharmaceutical Division of ICI before it was floated off as a separate company.

RVF

They don't seem to call it the Malmo Astra Zeneca vaccine though...

Mölndal. South of Gothenburg but not as far south as Malmö. I have visited more times than I can remember, starting my journey many times from Malmö by complete coincidence but Mölndal is where AZ’s big discovery & development centre is in Sweden. As mentioned though, the Zeneca bit is definitely U.K. (ex ICI) and from my experience in negotiating big deals management in both countries needed to give consent.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403758

Postby Arborbridge » April 12th, 2021, 10:33 pm

absolutezero wrote:I have yet to hear Merkel or Macron publicly slate the other jabs but they were very quick to do that with AZN.



Perhaps they've learnt the lesson? If you want to get your population jabbed, then the PR has to be entirely positive otherwise you end up with a nation of refusniks. Striking too cautious a tone was praised by many because they felt governments were taking their welfare seriously whilst the Brits were throwing caution to the wind, but it's difficult to switch modes later when the data suggests that losing a few to clotting is the better outcome.

Oddly enough, I heard tonight of the father of one of my grandchild's friend who had clot and has ended up paralysed down one side, possibly permanently. That's the way chance goes: it's meant to be incredibly rare yet I've already heard of someone close to my circle who has been affected.
And two days before I become a jabbee for the second time.

Arb.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403760

Postby thebarns » April 12th, 2021, 11:14 pm

Very unfortunate and unlucky for that person Arb.

Do you know if it was the first or second jab ?

To date, all I’ve read, about which I remain sceptical partly as less data as fewer second doses, states there have been zero cases with clotting issues on the second dose, implying if there has not been a serious clotting reaction with the first jab, then at the moment there is virtually no chance of it happening on the second jab.

As I say, I have seen this fact mentioned on a few media sites, but remain sceptical whether it will hold up as more data from second jabs comes on stream.

As best as I understand the vaccine, which is fairly superficial, the first jab almost gives the same protection as the two jabs combined - the main benefit of the second jab being the longer guesstimated duration of the protection.

However, I have been unable to find any data or answers to the question of how much longer is protection provided by two jabs compared to one jab, primarily I think because there is no research or live data on this as to date very few people will stop at just one jab and see how that goes and partly because there is no data on how long protection will last for either both jabs or just one jab.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403768

Postby onthemove » April 13th, 2021, 12:26 am

absolutezero wrote:I await a similar level of fuss about Pfizer.JnJ etc.
There is a bit fuss from the EU about this. But nowhere near as much.
I have yet to hear Merkel or Macron publicly slate the other jabs but they were very quick to do that with AZN.


Why would there be a similar level of fuss or Slate the other jabs?

The evidence is completely different in relation to Pfizer.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -it-caused

"Is this clotting seen with any other Covid-19 vaccines?
Prof Jim Buttery, head of epidemiology and signal detection at the Victorian immunisation safety service, said that of the more than 70m Pfizer doses given globally, there had been only two reports of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, both in the US. However, neither of those cases had the low platelets seen in the AstraZeneca cases.
...
“AstraZenca remains the one where we think it’s likely that this clotting is a rare but real side effect of the vaccine,” Buttery said."


It also seems there is quite a specific test that can be done to identify the particular syndrome...

"... the immune system makes antibodies to a complex of heparin and a protein called “platelet factor 4”, triggering this dangerous clotting. Those affected by the syndrome after receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine also have the same complex, with antibodies to platelet factor 4 in their plasma."


"Do we have any tests to detect it?
Yes. There is a test people can be given after vaccination to see if they have antibodies against platelet factor 4 in their plasma. It also means doctors can tell if a patient has this specific rare type of clotting, as opposed to other less dangerous types of clotting that can occur in the general population even without the vaccination."


So it doesn't even need to be left to speculation. If anyone reports possible side effects that they think might be these dangerous clots, there is a specific test that can quickly determine whether it is or isn't the particular dangerous syndrome.

It's unfortunate, but it is looking increasingly probable that this syndrome is being caused by the Oxford / AZ vaccine.

When over 70million have had the Pfizer jab already, and no similar reports have been made (i.e. where the specific low platelet count was observed, etc), it's difficult to see how the AZ jab can have much future.

In the very near term, where there isn't the manufacturing capability to get enough Pfizer doses, you can probably still use the 'lesser harm vs covid' argument and if I'm offered the AZ jab in a few weeks, I'll probably just take it.

But surely, the government(s) should be looking to buy / increase production of the Pfizer and similar vaccines, like Moderna, etc) instead of ramping up AZ vaccine production now.

In the UK alone, it looks like there have been 19 deaths that look increasingly likely to be a result of the AZ vaccine, and we're only half way through the population. It's still statistically small. If it were the only jab in town, absolutely it would still be a life saver and worthy of immense praise.

But when there are other jabs available, jabs which also seem to offer better efficacy against Covid as well, there comes a point when you're just got to accept, this time the Americans and the Germans did it better. Perhaps it was just bad luck for Oxford / AZ, good fortune for the Americans and Germans. But if you put petty squabbling and nationalism to one side, and look at the evidence...

Apart from Macron's one ill-informed comment, I think the rest of the EU and the EMA, etc, have been shown vindicated in their cautious stance.

It might take a while for some people to accept it, but the EU caution over the safety of the AZ vaccine looks to be perfectly reasonable and evidence based to me, and nothing at all to do with politics.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403773

Postby servodude » April 13th, 2021, 12:43 am

onthemove wrote:In the UK alone, it looks like there have been 19 deaths that look increasingly likely to be a result of the AZ vaccine, and we're only half way through the population. It's still statistically small. If it were the only jab in town, absolutely it would still be a life saver and worthy of immense praise.

But when there are other jabs available, jabs which also seem to offer better efficacy against Covid as well, there comes a point when you're just got to accept, this time the Americans and the Germans did it better. Perhaps it was just bad luck for Oxford / AZ, good fortune for the Americans and Germans. But if you put petty squabbling and nationalism to one side, and look at the evidence...

Apart from Macron's one ill-informed comment, I think the rest of the EU and the EMA, etc, have been shown vindicated in their cautious stance.

It might take a while for some people to accept it, but the EU caution over the safety of the AZ vaccine looks to be perfectly reasonable and evidence based to me, and nothing at all to do with politics.


The incidence of VIPIT is very very low and should be identifiable and treatable - now that it is known and acknowledged

Caution was the right approach
Suspension of the roll out wasn't - but then that wasn't the EMA's position

The reporting has been shoddy and dangerous; but some of that has been down to the verbatim quotes they've had to report

The flag waving is tedious, predictable and ignorant; much like those waving them

- sd

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403829

Postby XFool » April 13th, 2021, 11:30 am

My further, uninformed thought, on these rare type blood clotting incidents.

Apart from all the usual questions (intrinsic rarity and COVID itself causes clots) when any serious medical incident occurs following vaccination I imagine it is followed up pretty intensively. Thus we can expect all such cases to be identified in the vaccinated population. However, in normal times, while a blood clot would be so identified, would all cases of such a rare type of clot be identified? In other words, the accurate population rate of this condition must be known in the vaccinated group, but possibly not accurately known for the population normally.

Could the normal population rate for this condition therefore be underestimated? But the medical authorities must be aware of this point, if it has any validity.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403837

Postby Arborbridge » April 13th, 2021, 11:43 am

thebarns wrote:Very unfortunate and unlucky for that person Arb.

Do you know if it was the first or second jab ?




I've just had it confirmed: it was a first jab.

Arb.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403838

Postby XFool » April 13th, 2021, 11:44 am

absolutezero wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:I read at the weekend that the new Johnson and Johnson vaccine had also had instances of that type of clotting, as have Pfizer and Moderna, I still can't understand why AZN is getting all the stick for this.

Short answer: Politics.
Long answer: EU sour grapes wanting to make a British product look bad - purely out of spite.

And the "EU sour grapes" route to making "a British product look bad" was to say: "The European Medicines Agency decided that Vaxzevria’s benefits are greater than its risks and it can be authorised for use in the EU."?

Strange approach!

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/vaxzevria-previously-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403842

Postby Bouleversee » April 13th, 2021, 11:58 am

It gets more and more confusing. I had read about Vaxevria's clotting history on Medical News Today's newsletter and wondered who made it.

Dr Mark Porter's health column in today's Times 2 is about the vaccines.. It includes the following: "The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has raised one caveat by advising we consider alternative vaccines for first doses in people with a history of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis or an inherited tendency to abnormal clotting (such as thrombophilia and antiphospholipid syndrome). We are expecting further clarification on this." A bit late in the day so far as my daughter is concerned and my son will be offered his any day now.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403853

Postby Julian » April 13th, 2021, 12:21 pm

Bouleversee wrote:It gets more and more confusing. I had read about Vaxevria's clotting history on Medical News Today's newsletter and wondered who made it.

Dr Mark Porter's health column in today's Times 2 is about the vaccines.. It includes the following: "The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has raised one caveat by advising we consider alternative vaccines for first doses in people with a history of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis or an inherited tendency to abnormal clotting (such as thrombophilia and antiphospholipid syndrome). We are expecting further clarification on this." A bit late in the day so far as my daughter is concerned and my son will be offered his any day now.

I was a bit jealous of the Russians having a cool name for their vaccine where AZ and Pfizer have been using fairly cryptic code or very boring names but I'm not sure "Vaxevria" is much of an improvement on "COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca".

I assume you probably saw this but in case there is any lingering confusion Vaxevria is the new name for the Oxford/AZ vaccine, according to the linked EMA document...

COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca received a conditional marketing authorisation valid throughout the EU on 29 January 2021.

The name of the vaccine was changed to Vaxzevria on 25 March 2021.


Doesn't exactly trip off the tongue does it?

- Julian

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403892

Postby XFool » April 13th, 2021, 2:11 pm

...Somewhat reminds me of BSE: "Bovine spongiform encephalopathy. The only disease where, if you can say it you haven't got it". Perhaps in a similar manner "Vaxzevria. If you can say it after you've had it, then you haven't had a clot on the brain".

Of course, doesn't say what it signifies if you can't say it even before you've had your first dose...

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403917

Postby zico » April 13th, 2021, 3:31 pm

USA has now paused Johnson vaccine due to blood clots. 6 women had rare and serious blood clots from 6.8million jabs.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403943

Postby XFool » April 13th, 2021, 4:38 pm

zico wrote:USA has now paused Johnson vaccine due to blood clots. 6 women had rare and serious blood clots from 6.8million jabs.

Are these of the unusual 'low platelets' type?

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403949

Postby daveh » April 13th, 2021, 4:49 pm

XFool wrote:
zico wrote:USA has now paused Johnson vaccine due to blood clots. 6 women had rare and serious blood clots from 6.8million jabs.

Are these of the unusual 'low platelets' type?

According to the BBC yes:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56733715

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403980

Postby Arborbridge » April 13th, 2021, 5:59 pm

Dr Fauci told us on radio 4 that the AZ vaccine may never be used in the US. This is because by the time they have given approval, they will most likely have plenty of of stock of vaccines already approved in production, not because he feels there's anything wrong with the vaccine.
There will simply be no need for it, and AZ will have missed the boat on all those potential sales.

Nice one US of A.

To be fair, they have also halted use of the J and J vaccine.

Arb.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403981

Postby redsturgeon » April 13th, 2021, 6:14 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Dr Fauci told us on radio 4 that the AZ vaccine may never be used in the US. This is because by the time they have given approval, they will most likely have plenty of of stock of vaccines already approved in production, not because he feels there's anything wrong with the vaccine.
There will simply be no need for it, and AZ will have missed the boat on all those potential sales.

Nice one US of A.

To be fair, they have also halted use of the J and J vaccine.

Arb.


Since AZ would not have made a profit on those sales then they don't lose anything and it means more to go round for the RoW.

John

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403985

Postby Arborbridge » April 13th, 2021, 6:31 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Dr Fauci told us on radio 4 that the AZ vaccine may never be used in the US. This is because by the time they have given approval, they will most likely have plenty of of stock of vaccines already approved in production, not because he feels there's anything wrong with the vaccine.
There will simply be no need for it, and AZ will have missed the boat on all those potential sales.

Nice one US of A.

To be fair, they have also halted use of the J and J vaccine.

Arb.


Since AZ would not have made a profit on those sales then they don't lose anything and it means more to go round for the RoW.

John


Well, I thought that too. I'm not sure how these things work, but presumably they could have made a profit in the US eventually - this set back will most likely cost them that eventual market entirely. Selling to RoW is not so attractive in profit terms.

Arb.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403986

Postby Arborbridge » April 13th, 2021, 6:33 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
thebarns wrote:Very unfortunate and unlucky for that person Arb.

Do you know if it was the first or second jab ?




I've just had it confirmed: it was a first jab.

Arb.


He was also a smoker with high blood pressure and high BMI.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403994

Postby Nimrod103 » April 13th, 2021, 7:01 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
thebarns wrote:Very unfortunate and unlucky for that person Arb.

Do you know if it was the first or second jab ?




I've just had it confirmed: it was a first jab.

Arb.


He was also a smoker with high blood pressure and high BMI.


So he has never been too worried about his health, and can take this affliction in his stride?

But what actual evidence is there that the jab caused the blood clot? I say this as somebody who has never smoked, and is not really obese, yet suffered an unprovoked DVT in my left leg a few years ago. Unprovoked meaning there was no identifiable cause. Just, perhaps, as in this case.

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Re: AstraZeneca (Latest Trials)

#403996

Postby redsturgeon » April 13th, 2021, 7:04 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Dr Fauci told us on radio 4 that the AZ vaccine may never be used in the US. This is because by the time they have given approval, they will most likely have plenty of of stock of vaccines already approved in production, not because he feels there's anything wrong with the vaccine.
There will simply be no need for it, and AZ will have missed the boat on all those potential sales.

Nice one US of A.

To be fair, they have also halted use of the J and J vaccine.

Arb.


Since AZ would not have made a profit on those sales then they don't lose anything and it means more to go round for the RoW.

John


Well, I thought that too. I'm not sure how these things work, but presumably they could have made a profit in the US eventually - this set back will most likely cost them that eventual market entirely. Selling to RoW is not so attractive in profit terms.

Arb.


Not sure the market in the US would ever have been that big for AZ, not with all the US company alternatives.

My RoW comment is more a public health comment rather than a AZ share price comment.

John


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