Friends lost through vaccination.

[csearle]

Out of the blue I just received the following from a friend:

Hey,just thought I'd check in. Are you in the vaccinated gang?

To which I replied:

I am. How are you?

Then got:

Ah such a Shame. I thought you may be different. Sorry to hear that. Good luck and best wishes.xx

Tried to steer the conversation off of vaccines (bit fed up with the whole subject actually) but she was up for a fight about it. Received a long message that was really very negative about me culminating in a declaration that we were on different pages now and basically saying farewell.

I'm a bit saddened by this. I know almost nothing about the whole subject beyond what we have all experienced over the past yearish. I'm pretty sure she also knows little about it either (her specialities lie elsewhere). Yet we have basically ceased to be friends.

There have been three close friends who are also of this opinion, but who have not completely cut of ties.

There is also one German nutritionist who has been aggressively discouraging everyone that will listen from getting themselves vaccinated. She tries to shame them into "protecting" their friends by joining her in her campaign. I "unfriended" her with a parting question concerning the number of unnecessary deaths she has indirectly caused. So I'm also guilty of causing rifts too I realise.

C.

[Urbandreamer]

Rise above it.

Your "friend" who you heard from out of the Blue doesn't want to be your friend because you feel that vaccination caries advantages for you. How far apart were you before, that you were surprised to hear from her?

I happen to believe in the advantages of vaccines, but it's not as black and white as those who froth at the mouth on either side would have it.

With respect to this vaccine, my research seems to suggest that it's far safer for the community and individual than some of the others that we routinely give our children* and that I ensured that my children had. Far safer than some of the over the counter pills that I took in the past.

The German nutritionalist is not guilty of any deaths of those who follow her advice. Possibly those who die might have lived if they took the vaccine if offered, but to argue it's her fault is to both argue that she forced them and that she gave them the virus.

*I'm thinking of vaccines "safe" where most adults have some immunity and we have good sanitation and sanitation practices. Next time you are told that ALL vaccines are "safe", consider polio. Despite the facts in this link, I'd still advise taking even the oral the vaccine if you have indoor plumbing and can adopt currently advised sanitation practices.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory ... s-67287290

[Bubblesofearth]

Out of the blue I just received the following from a friend:

Hey,just thought I'd check in. Are you in the vaccinated gang?

To which I replied:

I am. How are you?

Then got:

Ah such a Shame. I thought you may be different. Sorry to hear that. Good luck and best wishes.xx

C.

It's a good job you didn't also tell them you had baked beans for tea last night.

BoE

[Mike4]

A few disjointed thoughts...

A girl I know I too have just discovered is rabidly anti vaccine, anti-lockdown, anti-everything to do with coronavirus. She is intelligent, a vegan, a musician and broadly "hippy" and left wing in outlook, very concerned about the welfare of people so this initially took me back a little. But as a child she was brought up as the epitome of "Daddy's little princess", has a massive sense of entitlement and a basic attitude of "nobody tells ME what to do, especially not the government", so it sort of makes sense on reflection.

I'm beginning to conclude revealing one's views on covid and on vaccines in particular is a recipe for unnecessary and unexpected social conflict. Declining to discuss coronavirus or at least being guarded about one's views with other people is turning out to be the socially nimble thing to do, and I now think now it is a Good Idea to add it to the list of things never to discuss at dinner parties (if we were having them) of politics, money, religion and now covid, for the avoidance of blowing up friendships.

By way of work I've still met a large number of people over the last 9 months, approx 5 new people or couples per week, these being my customers. ALL (except for one couple) seems to toe the official line, wear masks, practice social distancing etc etc yet given the diversity of views out there, I can't believe every single one of them can possibly truly accept the government line, they just tell me they do because they wanted their boilers mended.

So the upshot of this is, even if one's friends' views on covid seem to coincide with one's own, they might not underneath, and it might be a really good idea to avoid expressing any views. If they don't know your views on coronavirus or vaccines, you can't fall out over it.

Getting back to the OP, it rather sounds to me as though this girl got in touch specifically for the purpose of dividing her contacts up into fellow worshippers or devils incarnate, but Chris failed to spot this intention and fell straight into the devious trap by innocently answering the question. Sad loss of a friend though.

[Nimrod103]

Is it a generational thing?

I talk to a lot of retired men and women (through volunteering). Without exception they realize that vaccination represents the only way out of the plague.

I talk with the younger members of my extended family. They also realize that vaccination represents the only way out of the plague.

I don't have any/many contacts with middle aged people. Maybe they are the recalcitrants?

[88V8]

Received a long message that was really very negative about me culminating in a declaration that we were on different pages now and basically saying farewell.
I'm a bit saddened by this.

She's a self-centred twit.
Shame.
Move on.

V8

[Bubblesofearth]

So the upshot of this is, even if one's friends' views on covid seem to coincide with one's own, they might not underneath, and it might be a really good idea to avoid expressing any views. If they don't know your views on coronavirus or vaccines, you can't fall out over it.

Getting back to the OP, it rather sounds to me as though this girl got in touch specifically for the purpose of dividing her contacts up into fellow worshippers or devils incarnate, but Chris failed to spot this intention and fell straight into the devious trap by innocently answering the question. Sad loss of a friend though.

I would be genuinely curious to know what people's definition of 'friend' is on here. I realise my 'beans' quip was a bit glib but, seriously, if friendship relies on having the same or similar views then is that really friendship? Surely it's a bit deeper than that? Or am I just getting old and is 'friend' now some social media thing?

BoE

[Mike4]

So the upshot of this is, even if one's friends' views on covid seem to coincide with one's own, they might not underneath, and it might be a really good idea to avoid expressing any views. If they don't know your views on coronavirus or vaccines, you can't fall out over it.

Getting back to the OP, it rather sounds to me as though this girl got in touch specifically for the purpose of dividing her contacts up into fellow worshippers or devils incarnate, but Chris failed to spot this intention and fell straight into the devious trap by innocently answering the question. Sad loss of a friend though.

I would be genuinely curious to know what people's definition of 'friend' is on here. I realise my 'beans' quip was a bit glib but, seriously, if friendship relies on having the same or similar views then is that really friendship? Surely it's a bit deeper than that? Or am I just getting old and is 'friend' now some social media thing?

BoE

Well in my view there is a continuum ranging from acquaintance to inseparable intimate soul-mate. On a fairly wide part of that continuum, around the middle, lies the term "friend".

So yes as you asked, it depends what you mean by "friend".

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Out of the blue I just received the following from a friend:

Hey,just thought I'd check in. Are you in the vaccinated gang?

To which I replied:

I am. How are you?

Then got:

Ah such a Shame. I thought you may be different. Sorry to hear that. Good luck and best wishes.xx

Tried to steer the conversation off of vaccines (bit fed up with the whole subject actually) but she was up for a fight about it. Received a long message that was really very negative about me culminating in a declaration that we were on different pages now and basically saying farewell.

I'm a bit saddened by this. I know almost nothing about the whole subject beyond what we have all experienced over the past yearish. I'm pretty sure she also knows little about it either (her specialities lie elsewhere). Yet we have basically ceased to be friends.

There have been three close friends who are also of this opinion, but who have not completely cut of ties.

There is also one German nutritionist who has been aggressively discouraging everyone that will listen from getting themselves vaccinated. She tries to shame them into "protecting" their friends by joining her in her campaign. I "unfriended" her with a parting question concerning the number of unnecessary deaths she has indirectly caused. So I'm also guilty of causing rifts too I realise.

C.

Hmm ... I could bore you with all sorts of thoughts but that would be boring. There's an opportunity to search for more friends. There's also an opportunity to reflect and see where time and space take you all.

AiY

[77ss]

Out of the blue I just received the following from a friend:

Hey,just thought I'd check in. Are you in the vaccinated gang?

To which I replied:

I am. How are you?

Then got:

Ah such a Shame. I thought you may be different. Sorry to hear that. Good luck and best wishes.xx

Tried to steer the conversation off of vaccines (bit fed up with the whole subject actually) but she was up for a fight about it. Received a long message that was really very negative about me culminating in a declaration that we were on different pages now and basically saying farewell.

I'm a bit saddened by this. I know almost nothing about the whole subject beyond what we have all experienced over the past yearish. I'm pretty sure she also knows little about it either (her specialities lie elsewhere). Yet we have basically ceased to be friends.

There have been three close friends who are also of this opinion, but who have not completely cut of ties.

There is also one German nutritionist who has been aggressively discouraging everyone that will listen from getting themselves vaccinated. She tries to shame them into "protecting" their friends by joining her in her campaign. I "unfriended" her with a parting question concerning the number of unnecessary deaths she has indirectly caused. So I'm also guilty of causing rifts too I realise.

C.

I don't see opposing views on vaccination as being any different from (e.g.) opposing political views. If you have friend, sometimes if is better simply not to discuss some matters. If (either of) you can't handle a diametically opposed viewpoint, then did you have a friendship?

As for 'unfriending' somebody with a Parthian shot - what's the point?

Like you, I have been vaccinated, although I am not without reservations. A have friend who is opposed - and with her background I can understand how she has got there. We don't argue about it, and we remain friends. What brings us together is more important.

[AleisterCrowley]

I think a big problem is the polarisation of politics/debate these days, which fails to recognise a spectrum of opinions- for example;
You are either pro-vaccination or an antivaxer
Remainer or Brexiter
Feminist or misogynist
Pro-LGBT or homoshobe/transphobe
"Pro Life" or "Pro Choice"
etc etc
It's terrible when these false dichotomies divide friends and family
In the case of vaccination and Brexit people have ended up in one camp of the other through their actions - they voted Leave/Remain, accepted/rejected vaccination - although they may have many views in common and may have just fallen one side or the other of the line

[redsturgeon]

I think a big problem is the polarisation of politics/debate these days, which fails to recognise a spectrum of opinions- for example;
You are either pro-vaccination or an antivaxer
Remainer or Brexiter
Feminist or misogynist
Pro-LGBT or homoshobe/transphobe
"Pro Life" or "Pro Choice"
etc etc
It's terrible when these false dichotomies divide friends and family
In the case of vaccination and Brexit people have ended up in one camp of the other through their actions - they voted Leave/Remain, accepted/rejected vaccination - although they may have many views in common and may have just fallen one side or the other of the line

Have a rec, how true and we need to remember this.

On the vaccine issue I had no qualms at 64 in getting my vaccine as soon as it was available. Mrs RS also, especially since she is on the front line test for Covid and helping with the local vaccination programme.

When/if the vaccine becomes available for my children, agd 19 to 31 two of whom have already had Covid, not even needing to go to bed before recovering in two or three days, the choice becomes a little more nuanced.

When practically all of those at significant risk of death or serious illness are protected then a rise in cases among the younger population as the country/world opens up is inevitable but needs to be viewed through a different lens to that currently employed.

My son is in Iowa at college and they are one of 14 states in the US who have almost completely relaxed any restrictions...cases are going up but hopefully the death rate will come down significantly...I wish they had waited perhaps another few weeks before doing this to allow for more vaccinations but it should provide a useful canary for the rest of us.

We are reaching an interesting and important decision point.

John

[csearle]

Your "friend" who you heard from out of the Blue doesn't want to be your friend because you feel that vaccination caries advantages for you. How far apart were you before, that you were surprised to hear from her?

Well we had gone for quite a few walks in small groups when allowed but there had been a lull in communication, which I put down to the restrictions, i.e. there was not much/any group walking possible.

I too believe she was dividing her friends into like-minded or not. I suspect she thought I might be of her opinion regarding vaccination because when we had discussed the matter before I'd tried to tread the middle ground (mainly because I don't know what I'm talking about).

Anyway I suppose it was a friendship not meant to last.

Onwards ever onwards.

Regards,
Chris

[Bouleversee]

Out of the blue I just received the following from a friend:

Hey,just thought I'd check in. Are you in the vaccinated gang?

To which I replied:

I am. How are you?

Then got:

Ah such a Shame. I thought you may be different. Sorry to hear that. Good luck and best wishes.xx

Tried to steer the conversation off of vaccines (bit fed up with the whole subject actually) but she was up for a fight about it. Received a long message that was really very negative about me culminating in a declaration that we were on different pages now and basically saying farewell.

I'm a bit saddened by this. I know almost nothing about the whole subject beyond what we have all experienced over the past yearish. I'm pretty sure she also knows little about it either (her specialities lie elsewhere). Yet we have basically ceased to be friends.

There have been three close friends who are also of this opinion, but who have not completely cut of ties.

There is also one German nutritionist who has been aggressively discouraging everyone that will listen from getting themselves vaccinated. She tries to shame them into "protecting" their friends by joining her in her campaign. I "unfriended" her with a parting question concerning the number of unnecessary deaths she has indirectly caused. So I'm also guilty of causing rifts too I realise.

C.

How ridiculous. If she really was a friend and thought the vaccine might have harmed you, she should have kept in touch more in case you needed any support from her. It's not as though you were trying to force her to have it.

[csearle]

How ridiculous. If she really was a friend and thought the vaccine might have harmed you, she should have kept in touch more in case you needed any support from her. It's not as though you were trying to force her to have it.

Quite Lorna. I simply think people should decide for themselves. Ideally they would have heard any pros and cons and shouldn't be coerced into it one way or another.

That is also why I don't really think "vaccine passports" are the way forwards: it discriminates against people with concerns. I could imagine international travel might be an exception to this though as countries insisting on certain vaccines has a rôle to play in limiting the spread of infections across the globe and a precedent has long since been set*.

Chris
*International Certificate of Vaccination against Smallpox was developed by the 1944 International Sanitary Convention according to that font of all knowledge, Wikipedia.

[Bouleversee]

How ridiculous. If she really was a friend and thought the vaccine might have harmed you, she should have kept in touch more in case you needed any support from her. It's not as though you were trying to force her to have it.

Quite Lorna. I simply think people should decide for themselves. Ideally they would have heard any pros and cons and shouldn't be coerced into it one way or another.

That is also why I don't really think "vaccine passports" are the way forwards: it discriminates against people with concerns. I could imagine international travel might be an exception to this though as countries insisting on certain vaccines has a rôle to play in limiting the spread of infections across the globe and a precedent has long since been set*.

Chris
*International Certificate of Vaccination against Smallpox was developed by the 1944 International Sanitary Convention according to that font of all knowledge, Wikipedia.

A tricky one, Chris. Since we already have the S.A. version here and since we have some evidence of transmissibility and since we don't know, without tests, what our antibody levels are post vaccine, some of us, despite having done what we were told to do, won't be mingling anywhere where we can't be certain that at least everyone has been vaccinated. That doesn't make me feel discriminated against; it's just my personal choice. I wonder if the viral load of the aerosols we breathe into the atmosphere is any less toxic after vaccination than without vaccination. There is still an awful lot to be discovered.

Incidentally, as regards your ex-friend, are you quite sure she was anti-vaccine and not just trying to find out how old you were and was put off when she found out your minimum age group?

[1nvest]

Contraction of Covid kills just a small percentage, 0.5% or less (some suggest 0.1%). 95% of the deaths are those who are elderly, 50+.

For younger than 50 you have to weigh up the tiny risk of mortality from unvaccinated contraction of Covid versus the risk of the vaccine - that could present years later.

Fundamentally mass vaccination is a 'for the benefit of the collective' stance, that individuals have to consider in comparison to their personal position. Already the massive majority have had to give up much of their freedom and rights for the potential benefit of a very small number and it wouldn't be surprising to see them opt for their own personal position when it comes to being offered a vaccination. More so when you consider the legacy that that older generation have left in general. Branding's such as 'self-centred' would no doubt elevate the likelihood of not opting to be vaccinated. The apparently inevitable introduction of identity cards that depict which events/activities the state permits you to partake or not is also a seed of resentment, fundamentally age discrimination that will feed a old/young divide.

[Lanark]

That is also why I don't really think "vaccine passports" are the way forwards: it discriminates against people with concerns.

I have a feeling the whole "vaccine passports" thing is a bit of social engineering, they will talk about it to the press so that lots of doubters willl feel pressured into getting it 'just in case I need the passport' but then if takeup is high enough the govt won't actually implement anything.

[Urbandreamer]

That is also why I don't really think "vaccine passports" are the way forwards: it discriminates against people with concerns. I could imagine international travel might be an exception to this though as countries insisting on certain vaccines has a rôle to play in limiting the spread of infections across the globe and a precedent has long since been set*.

Again, rise above it. This is the press winding us all up.

What do "they", the press mean by what they say? When they say that they "understand" that the government are considering vaccine passports internally, what does it mean. Indeed what is a "vaccine passport" and what is it intended to achieve?

The press seems to imply it to mean "had a jab". Right. So my daughter who is retraining for her part time work next week will not be allowed into her place of work (cocktail bar) because she is too young to be allowed a jab yet! The same probably applies to actors and actresses if we reopen theatres. Children won't be allowed to eat in pubs with their parents. Etc,

What of covid tests? Well the same press is full of schools with covid issues, despite the tests! So the tests achieve covid safe don't they.

All the above totally ignores the issues of civil liberties and government by consent or indeed the public response. It's worth ignoring the lot, because it's just the press trying to get a response. Senior figures in the government have repeatedly ruled the idea out. Possibly because they actually thought it through, and the implications.

[zico]

That is also why I don't really think "vaccine passports" are the way forwards: it discriminates against people with concerns. I could imagine international travel might be an exception to this though as countries insisting on certain vaccines has a rôle to play in limiting the spread of infections across the globe and a precedent has long since been set*.

Again, rise above it. This is the press winding us all up.

What do "they", the press mean by what they say? When they say that they "understand" that the government are considering vaccine passports internally, what does it mean. Indeed what is a "vaccine passport" and what is it intended to achieve?

All the above totally ignores the issues of civil liberties and government by consent or indeed the public response. It's worth ignoring the lot, because it's just the press trying to get a response. Senior figures in the government have repeatedly ruled the idea out. Possibly because they actually thought it through, and the implications.

More accurate to say it's the government winding us all up. Various contradictory kites are being flown to gauge the reactions of what is actually a really difficult subject, so I'd just like the scientists to advise, and the government to decide, rather than all this malarkey of "what do a few focus groups think might be the best trade-offs between protecting lives, economy and fundamental freedoms, and will our MPs stand for it". It's important for the government to recognise that the views of its MPs are very different to those of the people they are supposed to represent. In a nutshell, general public have a definite aversion to risking getting ill and possibly dying earlier, whereas MPs are much more inclined to be risk-takers (especially when others are taking the risks!).