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Forgery-proof Covid passports

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
doolally
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Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401233

Postby doolally » April 2nd, 2021, 9:10 pm

Whatever the ethics and pros/cons of Covid passports, how might a passport be implemented which is proof against forgery?

It strikes me that a simple certificate would be easily forged.

doolally

PhaseThree

Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401241

Postby PhaseThree » April 2nd, 2021, 9:21 pm

One of the most secure ways would be to use one of the blockchain or distributed ledger systems as used by Bitcoin and other such crypto currencies. This could provide a Covid Passport that is outwith government control, a key requirement in my book.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401244

Postby Lootman » April 2nd, 2021, 9:31 pm

In theory someone could forge them but there isn't much money in that, I would have thought. I guess you could try and sell them to anti-vaxxers who aren't ashamed to carry one but that would be a limited market.

In time there might be a digital version, or maybe an annotation on your driving license or passport. But for the foreseeable future, those locations that are already asking to see proof of vaccinations are satisfied by the vaccine card. Some people are laminating them to ensure that they last longer, although that might be a problem if you later want a booster shot to be recorded - my card has room for 4 entries.

I keep mine with my passport for safekeeping and to ensure I always take it with me when I travel.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401248

Postby JohnB » April 2nd, 2021, 9:50 pm

Bus passes. Anything more robust to forgery would take so long to implement it would only be rolled out long after it is needed.

Mike4
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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401249

Postby Mike4 » April 2nd, 2021, 9:52 pm

As I understand it these are highly likely to be phone app based, so doing a screen grab of your mate's vaccine passport should do the trick when you need one...

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401252

Postby kiloran » April 2nd, 2021, 9:56 pm

Mike4 wrote:As I understand it these are highly likely to be phone app based, so doing a screen grab of your mate's vaccine passport should do the trick when you need one...

That's no good. My 97yo mum doesn't have a smartphone so wouldn't be able to go on a pub crawl or visit the nightclubs

--kiloran

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401258

Postby Mike4 » April 2nd, 2021, 10:19 pm

kiloran wrote:
Mike4 wrote:As I understand it these are highly likely to be phone app based, so doing a screen grab of your mate's vaccine passport should do the trick when you need one...

That's no good. My 97yo mum doesn't have a smartphone so wouldn't be able to go on a pub crawl or visit the nightclubs

--kiloran


Oh this SO reminds me of Old People. "We can't use the internet to search for a better deal on our utilities, we don't have a computer. We are 90 years old, why on earth would we need a computer?"

Well for a start, to get a better deal on......

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401271

Postby 1nvest » April 2nd, 2021, 11:04 pm

A "identity card" system would be centrally administered and no doubt sooner or later the data/hacked lost etc. As ever the data would lead on to all sorts of issues. Already there are indications of 'no vaccine no job', 'no vaccine no travel', 'no vaccine no pub' ...etc. and a broad identity card system could lead onto other state or otherwise controls - loss of freedoms due to the 'wrong' political inclination, have to apply for approval to travel and be restricted to where/dates/times (if even permitted), no health or other insurance for you because your profile doesn't fit etc.

Perhaps a legal requirement that you must have and carry your passport at all times with a captive £500 yearly renewal cost, obligated to be presented upon request for biometric and profile purposes. 'Better' than the current open prison tracking of mobile phones/face/number-plate recognition as its more directly associated to each individual rather than potentially having been a borrowed phone/car. Supposedly good for policing when they know where everyone is at all times.

Where after that? Perhaps 'reprogramming' centres to bring you around to how others opine you should live/think.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401272

Postby Urbandreamer » April 2nd, 2021, 11:07 pm

Mike4 wrote:Oh this SO reminds me of Old People. "We can't use the internet to search for a better deal on our utilities, we don't have a computer. We are 90 years old, why on earth would we need a computer?"

Well for a start, to get a better deal on......


Mike,have you never met an "old" person with that attitude? My wife is such though she is actually very willing to search for a better utility deal on the internet. It's NOT about age, or the internet, it's WHY SHOULD I. Please waste your time explaining to me why I should do something that I don't want to do that as far as I can see offers me no advantage.

So, you have people who demand to be able to do the things that they once were allowed to do. You require them to prove that they have been vaccinated. Why won't the card that was issued when they were vaccinated not count?

Well, I'm sorry it was never designed to be secure so you will have to register with the state and carry a smart (not mobile) phone. Que court cases. I'd bring one myself if things were demanded that way.

However the card was simply intended to facilitate treatment, NOT security. It would be easy to fake.
Hence the thread question and hence my answer, it can't be done (because we don't want it done).

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401274

Postby Mike4 » April 2nd, 2021, 11:15 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Oh this SO reminds me of Old People. "We can't use the internet to search for a better deal on our utilities, we don't have a computer. We are 90 years old, why on earth would we need a computer?"

Well for a start, to get a better deal on......


Mike,have you never met an "old" person with that attitude?


Absolutely yes I have. And I deleted their actual relationship to me and replaced it with "old people" when draughting my post in order to protect their privacy.

Similarly they bought mobile phones on which we could never reach them. Always turned OFF. When we asked them about this they said "no-one ever calls us on them so why would we keep them on?"

And these are intelligent people I have enormous respect for.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401283

Postby Urbandreamer » April 2nd, 2021, 11:44 pm

Mike4 wrote:And these are intelligent people I have enormous respect for.


Quite.

They just have values that differ from your own. When I was younger my mother paid for a weekend course on Myres Briggs. Apparently she attended one late in life and found that the fact everyone is not the same a real eye opener.

However the state has to cope with ALL of us. Those who refuse to use electronic payments and demand to pay be cheque.
Those who pay for everything in cash and those who don't. Etc.

Returning to the subject matter, the OP doesn't want to talk ethics. Dare I suggest that some who might be difficult over the idea might have what they regard as ethical reasons to sabotage the concept.

Sure it's possible to produce vaccine "passports" that are as difficult to forge as the notes in your wallet. Somehow I doubt that the government will go to that extent. I seriously doubt that they will adopt the idea at all, but if they do I expect a method that's easy to forge. Simply because most people won't be bothered to get a forged "passport" and the few who do will be of little medical risk.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401284

Postby mc2fool » April 2nd, 2021, 11:47 pm

Mike4 wrote:As I understand it these are highly likely to be phone app based, so doing a screen grab of your mate's vaccine passport should do the trick when you need one...

It's highly likely to be QR code based, to be presented either on your phone or as a paper copy, and when the bouncer scans your screen grab of your mate's QR code and your mate's mug shot appears on the bouncer's phone and doesn't match your mug .... :D

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401286

Postby Mike4 » April 2nd, 2021, 11:56 pm

mc2fool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:As I understand it these are highly likely to be phone app based, so doing a screen grab of your mate's vaccine passport should do the trick when you need one...

It's highly likely to be QR code based, to be presented either on your phone or as a paper copy, and when the bouncer scans your screen grab of your mate's QR code and your mate's mug shot appears on the bouncer's phone and doesn't match your mug .... :D


Will the bouncer on minimum wage notice or give a toss?

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401287

Postby 9873210 » April 2nd, 2021, 11:57 pm

This is yet another problem for which blockchain is not a solution.

The entity giving the vaccine or doing the test is a trusted party. Bog standard public key signing will suffice.
------
Any certificate needs to be tied to identity. The simplest, and only practical, way it to tie it to existing identity documents (e.g. drivers license or passport). It would be no more secure than the identity documents. Devising a new identity system on the fly is overly ambitious.
------
A printed barcode provides as much security as an app on the customers smartphone. It would require that the bouncer have his own device for verification. But you probably need the bouncer to do that even if the customer has an app on a smartphone.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401288

Postby mc2fool » April 3rd, 2021, 12:00 am

Mike4 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:As I understand it these are highly likely to be phone app based, so doing a screen grab of your mate's vaccine passport should do the trick when you need one...

It's highly likely to be QR code based, to be presented either on your phone or as a paper copy, and when the bouncer scans your screen grab of your mate's QR code and your mate's mug shot appears on the bouncer's phone and doesn't match your mug .... :D

Will the bouncer on minimum wage notice or give a toss?

For most it's the only power trip they get, so some will not only notice but enjoy it! :D

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401289

Postby servodude » April 3rd, 2021, 12:21 am

mc2fool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:It's highly likely to be QR code based, to be presented either on your phone or as a paper copy, and when the bouncer scans your screen grab of your mate's QR code and your mate's mug shot appears on the bouncer's phone and doesn't match your mug .... :D

Will the bouncer on minimum wage notice or give a toss?

For most it's the only power trip they get, so some will not only notice but enjoy it! :D


"Can't come in mate! you've only had one jab; and you're wearing trainers"

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401516

Postby tjh290633 » April 3rd, 2021, 11:19 pm

The card that I was given after my second jab has a QR code on it. Do I already have a Vaccine Passport?

TJH

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401518

Postby XFool » April 3rd, 2021, 11:22 pm

...Have you followed the link to see if it leads anywhere?

Mine has simple barcodes for birthday and, I presume, NHS number. With dates and batch numbers for both injections written on the back.
Last edited by XFool on April 3rd, 2021, 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401519

Postby XFool » April 3rd, 2021, 11:26 pm

Covid passport trials begin with live comedy night

BBC News

A comedy night in Liverpool will be the first event to pilot the government's Covid passport scheme later this month.

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Re: Forgery-proof Covid passports

#401573

Postby 88V8 » April 4th, 2021, 10:06 am

Heard on the wireless that the FA cup final will be passported.
That will be.... interesting.

V8


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