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Clots

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
NotSure
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Re: Clots

#405398

Postby NotSure » April 19th, 2021, 3:15 pm

EssDeeAitch wrote:I have not seen any references to blood clots associated with the Pfizer vaccine (I am not making any inference at all here). Have I just missed them or are there none?


A recent study, albeit carried out by Oxford University, suggests Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are associated with a very similar number of clots.

News story: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/blood-clots-as-prevalent-with-pfizer-and-moderna-vaccine-as-with-astrazenecas-report-2021-04-15

Oxford paper: https://osf.io/a9jdq/

I actually suffer from a serious blood clotting disorder (I've has multiple DVTs and PEs and will be anti-coagulated for life), so I did look into this before receiving my (AZ) jab. Turns out that based on the evidence available at the time, the drive to my GP was a far more risky part of the process......

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Re: Clots

#405440

Postby richfool » April 19th, 2021, 6:19 pm

Julian wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:No, it wasn't that one, Julian. It was this, if the link works: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.26132

Ah. Thank you.

I'm off for my daily walk now but will look at that when I get a chance later tonight, and come back here and eat humble pie if appropriate!

- Julian


NotSure wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:I have not seen any references to blood clots associated with the Pfizer vaccine (I am not making any inference at all here). Have I just missed them or are there none?


A recent study, albeit carried out by Oxford University, suggests Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are associated with a very similar number of clots.

News story: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/blood-clots-as-prevalent-with-pfizer-and-moderna-vaccine-as-with-astrazenecas-report-2021-04-15

Oxford paper: https://osf.io/a9jdq/

I actually suffer from a serious blood clotting disorder (I've has multiple DVTs and PEs and will be anti-coagulated for life), so I did look into this before receiving my (AZ) jab. Turns out that based on the evidence available at the time, the drive to my GP was a far more risky part of the process......

I wonder, for anyone who considers themselves to be at risk or more prone to blood clots, whether there might be merit in taking an aspirin once a day just before, and for a few days after, receiving a vaccination, and particularly the AZN vaccination.

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Re: Clots

#405445

Postby Nimrod103 » April 19th, 2021, 6:35 pm

richfool wrote:
Julian wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:No, it wasn't that one, Julian. It was this, if the link works: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.26132

Ah. Thank you.

I'm off for my daily walk now but will look at that when I get a chance later tonight, and come back here and eat humble pie if appropriate!

- Julian


NotSure wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:I have not seen any references to blood clots associated with the Pfizer vaccine (I am not making any inference at all here). Have I just missed them or are there none?


A recent study, albeit carried out by Oxford University, suggests Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are associated with a very similar number of clots.

News story: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/blood-clots-as-prevalent-with-pfizer-and-moderna-vaccine-as-with-astrazenecas-report-2021-04-15

Oxford paper: https://osf.io/a9jdq/

I actually suffer from a serious blood clotting disorder (I've has multiple DVTs and PEs and will be anti-coagulated for life), so I did look into this before receiving my (AZ) jab. Turns out that based on the evidence available at the time, the drive to my GP was a far more risky part of the process......

I wonder, for anyone who considers themselves to be at risk or more prone to blood clots, whether there might be merit in taking an aspirin once a day just before, and for a few days after, receiving a vaccination, and particularly the AZN vaccination.


The Oxford paper (produced by a different part of Oxford University to that responsible for the vaccine) has been presented and discussed by Dr John Campbell yesterday and the day before (if you want to look it up). The paper has not yet been peer reviewed nor issued but the results are startling. The number of blood clots which has got the various authorities worried are very rare, occur in the brain, and are somehow related to low platelet counts. Treatment with Heparin blood thinner is apparently the worst thing to do. Case rate is (as I recall) 4.2/million for Pfizer and 5 per million for AZ. So no significant difference.

However, there have been a very significant number of portal blood clots occurring with Pfizer (44 per million) but very few with AZ. These are just as dangerous, but apparently have not been commented on at all by the various licensing authorities.

It's all in Campbell's Youtube videos. Another case of regulatory bias against the British vaccine.

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Re: Clots

#406062

Postby richfool » April 22nd, 2021, 10:18 am

Please see my post link below (#406061) (about choice of vaccines in females under 30). I'm not sure which thread it would have been better suited to:

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=22218&hilit=Cornoavrirus+vaccinations&start=7780

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Re: Clots

#406528

Postby Bouleversee » April 23rd, 2021, 6:00 pm

richfool wrote:
Julian wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:No, it wasn't that one, Julian. It was this, if the link works: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.26132

Ah. Thank you.

I'm off for my daily walk now but will look at that when I get a chance later tonight, and come back here and eat humble pie if appropriate!

- Julian


NotSure wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:I have not seen any references to blood clots associated with the Pfizer vaccine (I am not making any inference at all here). Have I just missed them or are there none?


A recent study, albeit carried out by Oxford University, suggests Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are associated with a very similar number of clots.

News story: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/blood-clots-as-prevalent-with-pfizer-and-moderna-vaccine-as-with-astrazenecas-report-2021-04-15

Oxford paper: https://osf.io/a9jdq/

I actually suffer from a serious blood clotting disorder (I've has multiple DVTs and PEs and will be anti-coagulated for life), so I did look into this before receiving my (AZ) jab. Turns out that based on the evidence available at the time, the drive to my GP was a far more risky part of the process......

I wonder, for anyone who considers themselves to be at risk or more prone to blood clots, whether there might be merit in taking an aspirin once a day just before, and for a few days after, receiving a vaccination, and particularly the AZN vaccination.


An article by Dr Mark Porter in The Times said (in answer to a query similar to the above) said it definitely would not and might make things worse since CSTs are often accompanied by low platelet counts which increase the risk of bruising and bleeding.

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Re: Clots

#406531

Postby XFool » April 23rd, 2021, 6:40 pm

Bouleversee wrote:
richfool wrote:I wonder, for anyone who considers themselves to be at risk or more prone to blood clots, whether there might be merit in taking an aspirin once a day just before, and for a few days after, receiving a vaccination, and particularly the AZN vaccination.

An article by Dr Mark Porter in The Times said (in answer to a query similar to the above) said it definitely would not and might make things worse since CSTs are often accompanied by low platelet counts which increase the risk of bruising and bleeding.

That's interesting! For reasons too complex to go into I self medicate with 75mg aspirin every other day. I keep a record of which day in my diary, so allowing me now to go back and see the doses in relation to my AZN vaccinations.

I see I took aspirin the day before my first AZN vaccination and on the same day as my second. :)

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Re: Clots

#406566

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 23rd, 2021, 8:36 pm

Bouleversee wrote:
richfool wrote:I wonder, for anyone who considers themselves to be at risk or more prone to blood clots, whether there might be merit in taking an aspirin once a day just before, and for a few days after, receiving a vaccination, and particularly the AZN vaccination.


An article by Dr Mark Porter in The Times said (in answer to a query similar to the above) said it definitely would not and might make things worse since CSTs are often accompanied by low platelet counts which increase the risk of bruising and bleeding.


Did he also address the similar-looking question of how this relates to long-term blood-thinning medication, which is after all one of the questions they ask you for any covid jab?

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Re: Clots

#406615

Postby Bouleversee » April 24th, 2021, 9:53 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:
richfool wrote:I wonder, for anyone who considers themselves to be at risk or more prone to blood clots, whether there might be merit in taking an aspirin once a day just before, and for a few days after, receiving a vaccination, and particularly the AZN vaccination.


An article by Dr Mark Porter in The Times said (in answer to a query similar to the above) said it definitely would not and might make things worse since CSTs are often accompanied by low platelet counts which increase the risk of bruising and bleeding.


Did he also address the similar-looking question of how this relates to long-term blood-thinning medication, which is after all one of the questions they ask you for any covid jab?


No, I'm afraid it didn't. It did list all the symptoms of CST (cerebral sinus thrombosis) : persistent headache, not relieved by simple painkillers, lasting more than 4 days from vaccination; blurred vision, stroke-like symptoms and pain in ear/face. Clots outside the brain (deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolus) can cause swelling of the leg, calf pain, shortness of breath, chest discomfort and coughing up blood. Low platelet levels (another side effect associated with CST) may cause unusual bruising and a characteristic pinprick reddish/purplish rash that does not blanch with pressure (use the side of a glass).

I would like to think that people getting the vaccine now will be provided with a leaflet giving them all this info. and told what to do in the rare event that any of these symptoms arise.

It also mentions that the MHRA has suggested GPs consider alternative vaccines to the OAZ for first doses in people with a history of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis or in inherited tendency to abnormal clotting (such as thrombophilia and antiphospholipid syndrome). This article was published on Apr. 13, however, and I guess what GPs do will depend on availability and further information arising from experience and events as the rollout continues. I suppose it could also depend on how up to speed the practice is.

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Re: Clots

#406624

Postby dealtn » April 24th, 2021, 11:07 am

Bouleversee wrote:
I would like to think that people getting the vaccine now will be provided with a leaflet giving them all this info. and told what to do in the rare event that any of these symptoms arise.


I was given a leaflet when I got vaccinated. Never read it. I doubt I am in the minority. I'm not sure what would be achieved in practical terms handing out another leaflet.

Having the information available and easily accessible, on a govt website, and easily googleable, I don't see as a problem for anyone either concerned, or with symptoms afterwards. More effective and certainly less expensive (and less litter and waste too). Easier to update and keep relevant also.

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Re: Clots

#406634

Postby Julian » April 24th, 2021, 12:22 pm

dealtn wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:
I would like to think that people getting the vaccine now will be provided with a leaflet giving them all this info. and told what to do in the rare event that any of these symptoms arise.


I was given a leaflet when I got vaccinated. Never read it. I doubt I am in the minority. I'm not sure what would be achieved in practical terms handing out another leaflet.

Having the information available and easily accessible, on a govt website, and easily googleable, I don't see as a problem for anyone either concerned, or with symptoms afterwards. More effective and certainly less expensive (and less litter and waste too). Easier to update and keep relevant also.

I doubt you are in the minority and if you are then you are sharing it with me. By definition however all of us here are comfortable going online, at least to the extent of posting on this forum and I assume also for visiting other sites for information. It can be all too easy to forget that an awful lot of older people are not so comfortable going online or even totally incapable of doing so(*).

I wonder how many people threw their leaflets away immediately after being vaccinated. Despite not reading mine when I got it I did leave it lying around in a pile of papers for 2 or 3 weeks after my first jab and when I finally got round to doing some filing I did briefly glance at it prior to scanning it (which I do with all paperwork) and then throwing it away. I can see the benefit of a leaflet if the potential for these very rare clots is at least mentioned during the in-person informed consent that happens at the vaccination centre and during that informed consent the leaflet is also pointed out so that, if someone does subsequently become worried, they can then dig out the leaflet at some later time when they might have noticed something unusual and see if there might indeed be cause for concern. Not perfect of course but less alienating for those who are not comfortable with the online world.

- Julian

(*) I'm pretty aware of this whole "online alienation" thing at the moment. I've done quite a lot of tech support for older neighbours over the course of this pandemic who, even though they have computers, are totally out of their depth with stuff that seems amazingly simple to me. One neighbour was having trouble accepting a zoom call and thought her mouse was broken. She'd owned a computer for at least 10 years. It turned out that the problem was that in all those years she had never realised there was a left and a right button on the mouse, she had always been pushing the middle button to do stuff because it was white and looked like a button. Miraculously she had got away with that for the very few things she had ever done on the computer over all those years but Zoom didn't accept a middle-click on the answer-call button and needed a left click!

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Re: Clots

#406637

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 24th, 2021, 12:45 pm

I was given a leaflet after my jab, and glanced at it. What caught my eye was "Read all of this leaflet carefully before you receive this vaccine ..." Erm ...

So I read it while doing my stint sitting there in case of a sudden-death reaction. Nothing of more interest than a list of side effects classified from common to rare, but with no mention anywhere of clots.

p.s. I had an appointment for my second jab yesterday. Ten minutes before my appointment, as I was on the way there, I got a phone call cancelling it. Um .. right .. NHS back to normal then.

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Re: Clots

#406638

Postby 9873210 » April 24th, 2021, 12:59 pm

Where I got my jab the leaflets were left on the chairs in the waiting area. The absence of a leaflet caused a cleaner to descend, spray down the chair and add a leaflet. So leaflets are not totally useless.

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Re: Clots

#406679

Postby Bouleversee » April 24th, 2021, 5:39 pm

I think I was handed my leaflet after the jab as well, which is rather stupid, but better than nothing i.m.o. and I should have thought there was a legal requirement to give patients warnings about possible side effects etc. I think there will be a large percentage of the population who do not spend their time on the internet through lack of time if nothing else and will not be as informed as we are, especially as new things emerge all the time.

Practices vary. My daughter got nowhere when she asked if she could have the Pfizer vaccine as she had thrombophilia (that was before we found out that Pfizer had also had clotting cases) but when my son spoke to his GP practice more recently and reminded them of his thrombophilia, they were pleased he had done so and have put him on the priority list for the Pfizer; I don't know whether that will guarantee he gets it, however. They also said they would talk to the haematology dept. at the hospital to see if they had any advice. Apparently, they said my son was the only patient in the practice known to have a prothrombin factor. I can't help wondering whether there are others who have never had occasion to be tested. My late husband did not find out till he was quite old that he had inherited a prothrombin factor; this was after his brother had a pulmonary thrombosis and was found to have 2 prothrombin factors which led to the whole family being tested. Some had inherited factors and others not. My grandchildren have not yet been tested.

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Re: Clots

#406689

Postby richfool » April 24th, 2021, 7:17 pm

Bouleversee wrote:I think I was handed my leaflet after the jab as well, which is rather stupid, but better than nothing i.m.o. and I should have thought there was a legal requirement to give patients warnings about possible side effects etc. I think there will be a large percentage of the population who do not spend their time on the internet through lack of time if nothing else and will not be as informed as we are, especially as new things emerge all the time.

Practices vary. My daughter got nowhere when she asked if she could have the Pfizer vaccine as she had thrombophilia (that was before we found out that Pfizer had also had clotting cases) but when my son spoke to his GP practice more recently and reminded them of his thrombophilia, they were pleased he had done so and have put him on the priority list for the Pfizer; I don't know whether that will guarantee he gets it, however. They also said they would talk to the haematology dept. at the hospital to see if they had any advice. Apparently, they said my son was the only patient in the practice known to have a prothrombin factor. I can't help wondering whether there are others who have never had occasion to be tested. My late husband did not find out till he was quite old that he had inherited a prothrombin factor; this was after his brother had a pulmonary thrombosis and was found to have 2 prothrombin factors which led to the whole family being tested. Some had inherited factors and others not. My grandchildren have not yet been tested.

Yes, I too was given a (NHS) leaflet after receiving my first jab, along with a double-sided sheet of guidance notes (Information for the Recipient) from Astra Zeneca, and a little card detailing the name of the vaccine, batch number and date received. The card also provides for details of the 2nd jab to be entered. Actually, it's a good job the leaflet got mentioned here, as it prompted me to pull it out from my filing system and notice the attached card, which I had forgotten about, in time to take to my 2nd jab appointment tomorrow!

Both the leaflet and the "Information for the Recipient" sheet, as well as detailing possible side effects, also mention the Yellow Card scheme through which one can report particular side-effects, which I took advantage of because I suffered some strong side-effects. When I mentioned my side-effects to my GP, he never suggested reporting them, though when I told him I had done so, he said good idea.

My under 30 year old step-daughter is currently on a waiting list for a vaccine other than AZN, as there seems to be no Pfizer vaccine available locally, apart from that which is earmarked for 2nd jabs. I am wondering if she might get given the Moderna vaccine, as and when that becomes available. I haven't yet heard of any blood clot related issues arising from that one.

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Re: Clots

#416083

Postby Julian » May 29th, 2021, 3:05 pm

Reviving a bit of an old thread after the BBC had a couple of items on the news last night about AZ blood clots, also seen to a lesser extent in the J&J vaccine. Something that I've not seen reported in the mainstream media is a pre-print paper released last week by a team in Germany with a possible explanation for the clots that also suggests why the incidence between AZ & J&J vaccine-related clots show an approximately 10-fold difference (far fewer with J&J) and why the mRNA vaccines have not experienced the same issue, or more correctly that the incidence of issues is far more consistent with expected normal baseline level non vaccinated population incidence.

A simplified but I would say slightly inaccurately summarised news report is here - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ting-links . It should be noted that (a) this is a not yet peer-reviewed pre-print paper, and also that Astrazeneca's response is quoted as...

The U.K. pharma company said the theory put forward by the Goethe University laboratory in Frankfurt on Wednesday is one of many that AstraZeneca scientists are investigating.


... so clearly, and reassuringly, there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes to understand this.

The full paper is here - https://www.researchsquare.com/article/ ... -558954/v1

For those that do like to delve into the details it is also worth reading the comments at the end of the page linked to above since one of the authors (Rolf Marschalek) is engaging actively in the comments section. I note in particular in one of his replies in answer to the question...

Are there any long term harmful effects to your findings? In other words, if a person who receives an adenovirus vaccine does not have a blood clot event, is there any other long term concerns of this spike splicing happening?


He answers (with my bolding)...

Based on the present data, I would say no. If the first shot didnt caused any problem, the second will be tolerated as well. Most severe side effects were observed between 4-16 days after first vaccination. Knowing this, it will be much easier to counteract these severe side effects in the future. I still think that this vaccine is a good vaccine, but could be made much better if certain things has been changed.


The basic thrust of their theory, as I understand it, is related to the fact that as a DNA vaccine the spike protein that the vaccine is designed to generate is encoded as DNA, a requirement since it has to be encoded within the DNA of the adenovirus, and so that code has to first be transcribed from DNA to RNA in the host cell's nucleus and the transcribed mRNA then migrates into the cytoplasm for translation into proteins whereas the mRNA vaccines deliver the desired mRNA directly into the cytoplasm without needing that DNA -> RNA transcription stage.

The issue as suggested in this paper is in the transcription where the transcription process within the nucleus, as well as transcribing the spike DNA sequence into a complete mRNA sequence for the desired spike protein (as intended by the vaccine designers), can also transcribe only sub-sections of the spike protein into mRNA and it is some of these sub-units that they suggest are causing the problems since, as for the full mRNA sequence, the sub-sequences also migrate to the cytoplasm and are translated into proteins that in those cases generate not the full spike protein but rather a fragment of it. The particularly troublesome fragments are those that still contain a sufficiently intact binding domain such that they can bind with ACE2 receptors but do not contain the bit of the spike protein that allows the spike to anchor itself to the cell membrane such that, when those fragments exit the cytoplasm, rather than presenting themselves on the surface of the host cells to mimic a spike attached to the outside of a real SARS-CoV-2 viral particle, they instead drift off into the bloodstream where, if the host's existing antibodies don't manage to neutralise them in time, they bind with cells on the walls of the blood vessels where ultimately inflammatory responses can lead to blood clots.

From reading the comments it sounds as if this team has a few more experiments that it is in the process of running that are quite important in determining the credibility of this suggested mechanism of action but I found it an interesting read none the less. I think it will be a good step forward once there is some strong evidence and consensus regarding what is going on in terms of any underlying mechanisms causing these clots whatever that mechanism ends up being. To address a problem one needs to understand it first and all findings, good or bad, contribute to knowledge going forward.

- Julian


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