The Lemon Fool

Anyone got blood clots?

The way this story has emerged - all TPTB dragged kicking and screaming into gradually admitting there may be a problem, and then - far worse - spinning demonstrable nonsense[1] to brush it off, is precisely what it would look like if they're covering up something serious.

Alternative explanations are nothing to see, and rest-of-big-pharma conspiring to scupper the non-profit competition. If it is indeed the latter, they've got a lot of cooperation from the chattering classes invoking the Power of Denial.

[1] Like the comparison broadcast on BBC news of the risk of death from a blood clot vs the risk of death if you catch covid - the latter grossly overstated for a healthy person under 50. Thereby implying the risk of catching covid is 100% with no vaccine and zero if vaccinated.

UncleEbenezer wrote:Anyone got blood clots?

The way this story has emerged - all TPTB dragged kicking and screaming into gradually admitting there may be a problem, and then - far worse - spinning demonstrable nonsense[1] to brush it off, is precisely what it would look like if they're covering up something serious.

Alternative explanations are nothing to see, and rest-of-big-pharma conspiring to scupper the non-profit competition. If it is indeed the latter, they've got a lot of cooperation from the chattering classes invoking the Power of Denial.

[1] Like the comparison broadcast on BBC news of the risk of death from a blood clot vs the risk of death if you catch covid - the latter grossly overstated for a healthy person under 50. Thereby implying the risk of catching covid is 100% with no vaccine and zero if vaccinated.

I agree; they've acted like clots

-sd

Well I am having my second jab of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine on Saturday. I will take my chance on blood clots and am prepared to accept that.

Dod

Even I am beginning to get fed up with every UK commentator telling us that blood clots are "incredibly rare!!!". Me thinkg they protest too much and it's beginning to look like a coordinated attempt to distract us from an elephant in the room. Will we soon have to swallow our words and stop scoffing at the Europeans who used the precautionary principle, with our own regulators slowly turning circles?

Having said that, I am happy to go a-jabbing next week for the second AZN, because blood clots are
"incredibly rare!!!"
Arb.

UncleEbenezer wrote:[1] Like the comparison broadcast on BBC news of the risk of death from a blood clot vs the risk of death if you catch covid - the latter grossly overstated for a healthy person under 50. Thereby implying the risk of catching covid is 100% with no vaccine and zero if vaccinated.

I think that the problem with that is that it IS the comparison that many are making. A huge number of people have had covid. We wish to vaccinate an even bigger number of people. Some ten years ago neither covid, nor a vaccine for it existed and some people still died from these very rare blood clots.

It is believed that covid does increase the risks of these very rare clots, because their incidence increased with covid spreading before we could start vaccinating people. If we assume that vaccination removes the clot risk due to catching covid (by no means a certainty) then we are also seeing raised levels amongst those who have been vaccinated (both Pfizer and AZK).

Given the rare events it's difficult to know the reason for the increase with certainty. Possibly it has nothing to do with either covid or vaccination, but I doubt that is an opinion held by many or indeed anyone. Instead I suspect it's a case of "we don't know" and "more research is needed".

Speaking personally, I am happy to have had my first AZK jab and will be happy to have the second.

Urbandreamer wrote:
Given the rare events it's difficult to know the reason for the increase with certainty. Possibly it has nothing to do with either covid or vaccination, but I doubt that is an opinion held by many or indeed anyone. Instead I suspect it's a case of "we don't know" and "more research is needed".

Undoubtedly not enough is known and more research is needed. The problem with that though is deciding what to do during that time whilst that knowledge is sought. Pause the vaccination programme (or a specific vaccine) and expose individuals, and the population, to a low risk of catching Covid (and the potential non-linear spread), or continue the vaccination programme and expose individuals to a very low risk of a clot complication, and possible death.

I know which I would choose if I were in charge, and how it would affect me if offered the vaccine.

I have not seen any references to blood clots associated with the Pfizer vaccine (I am not making any inference at all here). Have I just missed them or are there none?

Given the rare events it's difficult to know the reason for the if there has been an increase with certainty.

While it is often productive to speculate about things that may not exist, speculation about why they might exist is not evidence that they do exist,

EssDeeAitch wrote:I have not seen any references to blood clots associated with the Pfizer vaccine (I am not making any inference at all here). Have I just missed them or are there none?

I hadn't either, until I did a web search. Unsurprisingly there have been such clots.
This link reports

Up to February 28, there were 38 reports from about 11.5million doses of Pfizer’s vaccine – compared to 30 from 9.7million AstraZeneca doses.

https://mental-fitness-group.com/health ... ca-banned/

Given the numbers I don't think that we can infer that one is "better" than the other.

This BBC report is interesting, though note that we are talking different things. The first link is ANY blood clot found and the second only those in the brain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56620646
Of note is

These were accompanied by low levels of platelets, which help form blood clots, in the body. The MHRA also found other clotting problems alongside low platelet levels in eight people.

Those of us who have had the jab in the UK will recall the question about blood thining medication. Also of note.

In total, 30 people out of 18 million vaccinated by 24 March had these clots.
.....
Germany has reported 31 CVSTs and nine deaths out of the 2.7 million people vaccinated there, with most cases in young or middle-aged women.

Why are we seeing less cases per million vaccinated? Speculation isn't helpful, but I note that young and middle age women have not been a significant portion of those vaccinated in the UK yet.

That bit about younger women has led to the suggestion it might be something to do with the contraceptive pill.

Now if *that* got the blame and fell out of favour, we'd have an even bigger problem on our hands! Unless it could be further narrowed down to *some* contraceptive pills.

There must be a decent sample out there. Young ladies who work in healthcare and were prioritised. Fortysomethings and Fiftysomethings leading active sex lives.

UncleEbenezer wrote:Anyone got blood clots?

The way this story has emerged - all TPTB dragged kicking and screaming into gradually admitting there may be a problem, and then - far worse - spinning demonstrable nonsense[1] to brush it off, is precisely what it would look like if they're covering up something serious.

Alternative explanations are nothing to see, and rest-of-big-pharma conspiring to scupper the non-profit competition. If it is indeed the latter, they've got a lot of cooperation from the chattering classes invoking the Power of Denial.

[1] Like the comparison broadcast on BBC news of the risk of death from a blood clot vs the risk of death if you catch covid - the latter grossly overstated for a healthy person under 50. Thereby implying the risk of catching covid is 100% with no vaccine and zero if vaccinated.

I object ... I'm not a clot

Sorry ... I've had no clots

This is a risk/reward situation for me and I'd like my life back please ... so second jab in 10 weeks

AiY

I also want my life back.
I don't even care if I have a Covid vaccination so long as I get the paperwork.
I literally don't care about a slight chance of blood clots.
Something, likely unsavoury, will get me in the end and I can't be bothered to agonise over what in the meantime.

W.

I am a little mystified by why there is no discussion in the media about the possibility of blood clots using Pfz as opposed to AZN.
At the very least there should be some mention or discussion of the comparatives, otherwise it raises the suspicion that we have an example of Pfizer being able to project a better image, or control their PR, better than AZN - to the disadvantage of the population. We are supposed to follow the science, not the marketiung ability.


Arb.

UncleEbenezer wrote:That bit about younger women has led to the suggestion it might be something to do with the contraceptive pill.

Now if *that* got the blame and fell out of favour, we'd have an even bigger problem on our hands! Unless it could be further narrowed down to *some* contraceptive pills.

Deaths from childbirth would go up.


"Covid vaccine volunteer, 72, struck by lightning after getting Moderna injection"

https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/18/covid-vaccine-volunteer-struck-by-lightning-after-moderna-injection-13774498/


Julian F. G. W.

UncleEbenezer wrote: Thereby implying the risk of catching covid is 100% with no vaccine and zero if vaccinated.

As I understand it the risk of unvaccinated people catching coronavirus is 100%.

Back in Jan 2020 it was common to hear/read experts saying as it was a novel virus on-one had immunity and given time, everyone will get infected. So the goal was to slow the spread to a manageable speed.

The chance if vaccinated is not zero either, but roughly 1 in 20. Or possibly much higher for Brazil variant P1 in those done with OxAZ but the jury is out on that, AIUI.

UncleEbenezer wrote:Anyone got blood clots?

Not since the last time I had a stroke, AFAIK.

(There is an interesting personal side story here, wrt serious respiratory tract infection - but let's leave that to one side)

UncleEbenezer wrote:The way this story has emerged - all TPTB dragged kicking and screaming into gradually admitting there may be a problem, and then - far worse - spinning demonstrable nonsense[1] to brush it off, is precisely what it would look like if they're covering up something serious.

Alternative explanations are nothing to see, and rest-of-big-pharma conspiring to scupper the non-profit competition. If it is indeed the latter, they've got a lot of cooperation from the chattering classes invoking the Power of Denial.

I completely disagree about "TPTB". Especially when people start invoking conspiracy theory type thinking - and terms like "TPTB"!

UncleEbenezer wrote:[1] Like the comparison broadcast on BBC news of the risk of death from a blood clot vs the risk of death if you catch covid - the latter grossly overstated for a healthy person under 50. Thereby implying the risk of catching covid is 100% with no vaccine and zero if vaccinated.

You must have been watching an 'alternative' BBC to the one I have been watching. They have made it quite clear to me about the balance of risks and how this shifts depending on the age of the recipients, how come you seem to have missed this entirely?

"Thereby implying the risk of catching covid is 100% with no vaccine and zero if vaccinated" - something entirely made up on your own, I'm afraid.

XFool has had two doses of the AstraZeneca COVID vaccine and is not "young".

XFool wrote:I completely disagree about "TPTB". Especially when people start invoking conspiracy theory type thinking - and terms like "TPTB"!

I'm sure there's a conspiracy - to shut me out: people have started writing TPTB without explaining what it means.

Arb.

Arborbridge wrote:

XFool wrote:I completely disagree about "TPTB". Especially when people start invoking conspiracy theory type thinking - and terms like "TPTB"!

I'm sure there's a conspiracy - to shut me out: people have started writing TPTB without explaining what it means.

Arb.

Me too!

I blame The Powers That Be.

Watis

Arborbridge wrote:

XFool wrote:I completely disagree about "TPTB". Especially when people start invoking conspiracy theory type thinking - and terms like "TPTB"!

I'm sure there's a conspiracy - to shut me out: people have started writing TPTB without explaining what it means.

Arb.

Me too!

A brief goggle however, revealed four possibilities...

TPTB The Powers That Be
TPTB The Place to Be
TPTB The People to Blame
TPTB Too Poor To Be

Mike4 wrote:

Arborbridge wrote:

XFool wrote:I completely disagree about "TPTB". Especially when people start invoking conspiracy theory type thinking - and terms like "TPTB"!

I'm sure there's a conspiracy - to shut me out: people have started writing TPTB without explaining what it means.

Arb.

Me too!

A brief goggle however, revealed four possibilities...

TPTB The Powers That Be
TPTB The Place to Be
TPTB The People to Blame
TPTB Too Poor To Be

The course of world history could be changed if we choose the wrong one.

Arb.