Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

[88V8]

Heard on the wireless this morning that the govt have decided to mandate vaccination.
Good.
Shame it took them so long.

It was commented that in some parts of the country, 20% or more of staff have not been vaccinated. Barnsley was mentioned, where it's said to be 33%.
My prejudices link this to the local demographic.
Perhaps not.

Anyway, welcome decision.

Balanced discussion article in the Grauniad a few weeks ago, here
It is telling that this debate is being centred on the right of care staff to refuse a vaccine and not the right of older people to live.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/28/compulsory-covid-jabs-care-home-staff-last-resort

Good grief. I cited an article from the Grauniad Must have a touch of sunstroke.

V8

[redsturgeon]

It was commented that in some parts of the country, 20% or more of staff have not been vaccinated. Barnsley was mentioned, where it's said to be 33%.
My prejudices link this to the local demographic.
Perhaps not.

V8

You do realise that Barnsley is 98% White don't you?

John

[UncleEbenezer]

What provision for workers who can't be vaccinated for good (medical) reasons? Exceptions, or negation of employment rights?

Or indeed religious reasons, given that those seem to be given special privilege. I suppose that would be the modern conscientious objector.

[murraypaul]

What provision for workers who can't be vaccinated for good (medical) reasons? Exceptions, or negation of employment rights?

Or indeed religious reasons, given that those seem to be given special privilege. I suppose that would be the modern conscientious objector.

From the initial consultation announcement:

This will not include those who can provide evidence of a medical exemption from COVID-19 vaccination.

I don't think any major religion has an issue with this vaccine.

[UncleEbenezer]

They've interviewed several folks in the biz on t'wireless (WATO).

There's a man who "won't be bullied": he came across as rather unclear on his reasons - perhaps not the best soundbite. But two care home managers who cast some light on the matter: both have been successfully persuading staff to get vaccinated, one thought compulsion helpful, the other thought it counterproductive. Both had coherent arguments.

[88V8]

It was commented that in some parts of the country, 20% or more of staff have not been vaccinated. Barnsley was mentioned, where it's said to be 33%.
My prejudices link this to the local demographic. Perhaps not.

You do realise that Barnsley is 98% White don't you?

Ahh, the residents... no, but I do now, thankyou.
Perhaps not the staff.
And the low takeup is all the more surprising given that care staff were amongst the first adult groups vaccinated in the town.

So, will it make recruitment more difficult because of refuseniks, or easier because staff don't want to work alongside the unvaccinated.
To be seen in due course.

Some of the Unions, have they forgotten that they are Health Unions.....
The Royal College of Nursing is also opposed to mandatory jabs for NHS staff. “It’s essential that staff have the opportunity to fully understand and have autonomy over what goes into their bodies"
Never mind the patients.

V8

[GrahamPlatt]

It has been mandatory for many years for NHS doctors to be vaccinated against hepatitis B. No jab, no job. Quite surprised to hear that nurses have a choice.
In many countries it is also mandatory for children to have their full schedule, no jabs, no school: No school, parents up before the beak (or “home school”, but given the mindset, I’d argue the parents are unqualified to undertake that).
I do not see refusing vaccination as a “human right”. You owe a duty of care to others. You want to live in society, then be sociable and get with the program.

[GrahamPlatt]

It was commented that in some parts of the country, 20% or more of staff have not been vaccinated. Barnsley was mentioned, where it's said to be 33%.
My prejudices link this to the local demographic. Perhaps not.

You do realise that Barnsley is 98% White don't you?

Ahh, the residents... no, but I do now, thankyou.
Perhaps not the staff.
And the low takeup is all the more surprising given that care staff were amongst the first adult groups vaccinated in the town.

So, will it make recruitment more difficult because of refuseniks, or easier because staff don't want to work alongside the unvaccinated.
To be seen in due course.

V8

Never thought of Barnsley as a dormitory town before.

[tjh290633]

You do realise that Barnsley is 98% White don't you?

Ahh, the residents... no, but I do now, thankyou.
Perhaps not the staff.
And the low takeup is all the more surprising given that care staff were amongst the first adult groups vaccinated in the town.

So, will it make recruitment more difficult because of refuseniks, or easier because staff don't want to work alongside the unvaccinated.
To be seen in due course.

V8

Never thought of Barnsley as a dormitory town before.

Perhaps you should consider from where the care staff commute to Barnsley. It is not far from the hotspots of Kirklees.

TJH

[1nvest]

A issue is of course that in making it compulsory then the state will have to indemnify - and when in 5, 10, whatever years time its identified that the vaccines induced brain tumours/blindness/heart-failures/ whatever that the taxpayers will be lumbered for the payments, but where too few taxpayers remain to cover the claims.

It should be left to individuals as to whether they opine a small risk of a serious Covid condition might be lower than the unknown longer term risk from hastily developed/issued vaccines. More so for the younger sub-30's. Surely better to hedge ones risks than have risk so highly concentrated. DDT lesson is being ignored.

[U962]

I do not see refusing vaccination as a “human right”. You owe a duty of care to others. You want to live in society, then be sociable and get with the program.

So what do you say to the relatives of those who after taking the vax are now dead?
The most prominent being the BBC Radio Newcastle presenter who did so and died a week later.
Now obviously she took it voluntarily - and made the wrong decision, given that at her age of 44 she was unlikely to have suffered severely from covid had she even got it. Now consider what the situation would be if she had been forced to take it. She would still be dead - and someone would be on the end of a mega court case.
Given that there are always going to be a certain number of vax fatalities your suggesting of 100% mandatory vax rule, amounts to government sanctioned execution of those unfortunate to have a genetic makeup that makes them vax sensitive.
Are they all to be written off as collateral damage and we don't care?

Currently deaths following the vax are standing at 406 for Pfzier, 863 for AZ, and 4 for Moderna. not of course that the gov would accept that any of these deaths (which include the blood clot ones HMG spent so much time denying) have anything do do with the vax and are all totally co-incidental. Just like they tried for 10 years to deny that the narcolepsy sufferers has anything to do with the swine flu vax.

And the number of fit healthy people under the age of 60 with no underlying health conditions who have died of the actual virus? Well the only figure seemingly available is that at the end of December 2020 when it stood at a grand total of 388.

[swill453]

The most prominent being the BBC Radio Newcastle presenter who did so and died a week later.
Now obviously she took it voluntarily - and made the wrong decision, given that at her age of 44 she was unlikely to have suffered severely from covid had she even got it.

I've no knowledge of the case, but in the sense of "expected return" she didn't make the wrong decision. She was far less likely to die or get hospitalised from the vaccine than from Covid-19.

Scott.

[murraypaul]

It should be left to individuals as to whether they opine a small risk of a serious Covid condition might be lower than the unknown longer term risk from hastily developed/issued vaccines. More so for the younger sub-30's.

That is fine for the younger sub-30s. Except when they spend their days in close proximity to over-70s.

[jfgw]

And the number of fit healthy people under the age of 60 with no underlying health conditions who have died of the actual virus? Well the only figure seemingly available is that at the end of December 2020 when it stood at a grand total of 388.

Do you have a source please?

If you look at "Deaths within 28 days of positive test by date of death age demographics - Above and below 60" here, https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... me=England , and add the deaths of those 0-59, you get 7829. (Date range 2/3/2020 to 11/6/2021.) This includes those with underlying health conditions and includes over six months' more deaths but it is more than 20 times as high as 388 and only includes England.


Julian F. G. W.

[murraypaul]

Currently deaths following the vax are standing at 406 for Pfzier, 863 for AZ, and 4 for Moderna.

And how many of those had no underlying health conditions?
Just to make sure we are comparing like with like.

I assume those are global numbers, not just for the UK, whereas your numbers below are just for England and Wales?
Doesn't seem like a very good comparison?

UK deaths attributed to Covid-19 vaccine reactions can be found in table 12 here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ndandwales

They list 2. Compared to ~120,000 deaths caused by Covid-19.

And the number of fit healthy people under the age of 60 with no underlying health conditions who have died of the actual virus? Well the only figure seemingly available is that at the end of December 2020 when it stood at a grand total of 388.

Figure to December 2020 that I think you are trying to reference is 542 for England and Wales: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... ovid19only

And how many people in their 40s or 50s have no underlying health conditions? None at all?

I wouldn't pass that check, how many posters here would?

[jfgw]

So what do you say to the relatives of those who after taking the vax are now dead?

What do you say to the relatives of those who died in care homes after having caught SARS-CoV-2 from unvaccinated staff?


Julian F. G. W.

[GrahamPlatt]

Accepting U962’s figures; “Currently deaths following the vax are standing at 406 for Pfzier, 863 for AZ, and 4 for Moderna”. Problem there is what’s the denominator. Maybe these are equivalent in proportion. Whatever, they are small beer compared to the denominators; and hence compared to the lives saved. Why is BoJo trumpeting “his” success in this matter? (Leaving aside his egregious failures elsewhere).

But think, yes, you take a risk taking the vaccine. Small, but enumerable. What you can’t so easily quantify is what were the odds of you a) catching and b) dying of the disease had you NOT been vaccinated.

But those latter compounded possibilities are in your favour cf dying of the vaccine per se.

Not only that, but your being vaccinated is helping to diminish the spread of the virus. Not a personal benefit, (excepting that it was your wife/husband/mother/father you’d have killed), but a benefit to society at large.

What’s not to like? OK, you might liken it to a perverse Russian roulette with 100,000 chambers. Score and you’re dead, refuse to play at all and kill 2 bystanders.

[1nvest]

It should be left to individuals as to whether they opine a small risk of a serious Covid condition might be lower than the unknown longer term risk from hastily developed/issued vaccines. More so for the younger sub-30's.

That is fine for the younger sub-30s. Except when they spend their days in close proximity to over-70s.

If the over 70's are vaccinated there's no issue. My 89 year old mother caught Covid whilst in hospital following a hip op back in January. Slight snivels. The 14 day isolation was more of a issue. For most Covid is mild, for some not even noticeable. For others a few days in bed. The very small percentage for whom it is a issue have induced a lot more side effects upon others lives. A small percentage will be killed in road traffic incidents, the answer is not to stop all driving. Proportionately fewer died in 2020 than in 1976 the year of a heat wave.

[GrahamPlatt]

I’ve just happened on this quote on another site: “I don't mind a battle of wits, but I won't fight an unarmed man"
Seems apposite.

[Spet0789]

While not specifically illegal, if a care home worker tipped a can of petrol over their head before entering their place of work, I would expect their employer to have a duty to prevent them from working.

I see refusing to be vaccinated as similar.