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Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
88V8
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Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404446

Postby 88V8 » April 15th, 2021, 11:19 am

It seems to me so obvious that staff should not be allowed to decide that they will act as a vector for a dread disease , but hey.

We are now able to express ourselves on the matter via a govt public consultation https://consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/making-vaccination-a-condition-of-deployment-in-older-adult-care-homes

Quite a detailed consultation which goes beyond full-time staff. I found the last two questions very confusing and said so in my final response.

Anyway, please contribute.

V8

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404460

Postby Laughton » April 15th, 2021, 12:08 pm

But what happens when insufficient numbers get vaccinated to fully staff care homes?

They already struggle to take on and keep staff.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404517

Postby 88V8 » April 15th, 2021, 2:41 pm

Laughton wrote:But what happens when insufficient numbers get vaccinated to fully staff care homes?
They already struggle to take on and keep staff.

I suppose if one kills sufficient of the residents, there will be less need for homes; or staff.

V8

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404530

Postby Bubblesofearth » April 15th, 2021, 3:21 pm

It would take a strange kind of individual that wanted to work in a care home, i.e. wanted to look after elderly people, but was not prepared to take every measure possible to protect those people, including vaccination. If they were actually advised against getting the vaccine, rather than choosing not to have it, then surely alternative employment would be preferable?

Also freedom of choice regarding vaccination should be weighed against freedom of choice of care homes and their residents regarding who they employ. I know we live in a World where anyone is supposedly able and has the right to do any job but common sense must occasionally prevail, no?

BoE

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404533

Postby staffordian » April 15th, 2021, 3:38 pm

I find this a difficult quandry.

Instinctively I feel all care home workers and home helps should be vaccinated. Employing any who have not been vaccinated is inviting Covid into the home, and even if all residents have had their vaccinations there must still surely be an element of risk to them, given their relative frailty and the fact that no vaccination can offer 100% protection.

But the question then is, how does one prove one has been vaccinated, or does it have to be taken on trust that an employee who says they're jabbed has actually been?

It comes back to the vaccine passport question, unless there is some process where the employer can get confirmation via the NHS, or the potential employee's GP.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404992

Postby vagrantbrain » April 17th, 2021, 8:02 pm

staffordian wrote:I find this a difficult quandry.

Instinctively I feel all care home workers and home helps should be vaccinated. Employing any who have not been vaccinated is inviting Covid into the home, and even if all residents have had their vaccinations there must still surely be an element of risk to them, given their relative frailty and the fact that no vaccination can offer 100% protection.

But the question then is, how does one prove one has been vaccinated, or does it have to be taken on trust that an employee who says they're jabbed has actually been?

It comes back to the vaccine passport question, unless there is some process where the employer can get confirmation via the NHS, or the potential employee's GP.


Not difficult at all - Vaccinations are recorded on your Enhanced Medical Summary which your GP receptionist can print off for you in a matter of seconds. I've got to submit mine once a year to my employers so I don't see why care homes would find it any harder.

9873210
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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404995

Postby 9873210 » April 17th, 2021, 8:37 pm

staffordian wrote:But the question then is, how does one prove one has been vaccinated, or does it have to be taken on trust that an employee who says they're jabbed has actually been?

It comes back to the vaccine passport question, unless there is some process where the employer can get confirmation via the NHS, or the potential employee's GP.

You could trust the employees. If a resident dies of COVID, investigate, and send the vac-nixs to prison for manslaughter. This is how we deal with the possibility you might murder me in my sleep.

I find it disturbing that people think the only alternatives are a perfect* bureaucracy or do nothing.

*For definitions of perfect that could only apply to bureaucracy.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404996

Postby onthemove » April 17th, 2021, 8:37 pm

88V8 wrote:It seems to me so obvious that staff should not be allowed to decide that they will act as a vector for a dread disease , but hey.

We are now able to express ourselves on the matter via a govt public consultation https://consultations.dhsc.gov.uk/making-vaccination-a-condition-of-deployment-in-older-adult-care-homes

Quite a detailed consultation which goes beyond full-time staff. I found the last two questions very confusing and said so in my final response.

Anyway, please contribute.

V8


I'm in two minds on the subject of compulsion for care workers. But that isn't my biggest concern...

I'm in two minds on the subject of compulsion, because on the one hand I generally don't agree with compulsion but on the other hand, we aren't talking about the general public, we're talking about professionals doing their job. And just as medical professionals are obliged to wear masks, gloves, etc, as part of their job to protect their patients, I think it's also reasonable to expect that they won't operate on, or care for, people if they themselves haven't been vaccinated.

But that dilemma is not my biggest concern.

My biggest concern is that medical and care professionals, people who have proper training to some level or other, and who are caring for people, don't have confidence in the treatments that the NHS is giving out.

These people are largely responsible for delivering medical care at some level or other. Perhaps not doctor level, but these people are responsible for making sure the people they are caring for are taking the medicines that doctors have prescribed and such like.

What does it tell you when these people shun the vaccine themselves?

To me, I just can't help feeling significantly concerned when such a significant proportion - I think some suggestions I've seen say 10 to 15% - of care staff don't have the confidence or understand it enough, to rush out and take the vaccine voluntarily.

Are these people being swayed by social media and fringe groups?

If so, that doesn't say much for the quality of training or the quality of people being employed in that sector, if that number trust social media more than they trust the profession in which they operate as (supposed) professionals themselves.

If these people are being swayed by conspiracy theories and hearsay regarding the vaccine, so much so that they'd unnecessarily risk giving their patients covid, how can we have confidence that they are doing their jobs properly in other aspects?

What other conspiracy theories are they reading? Are they basing the care they give daily, on their training, or on what some anonymous person told them on the t'interweb the other week.

Maybe it would be for the overall good, if some were barred from working in the sector if they aren't vaccinated... but for the reasons mentioned above, not the simplistic 'if they aren't vaccinated, their patients could catch it'.

IMV, if 10 to 15% do end up refusing the vaccine, then I think the government should seriously look to open a broader investigation into whether medical and care workers really have confidence in, and are really following the science and their training when they go about their daily jobs in general (nothing specific to covid).

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#404998

Postby vagrantbrain » April 17th, 2021, 9:08 pm

onthemove wrote:[

My biggest concern is that medical and care professionals, people who have proper training to some level or other, and who are caring for people, don't have confidence in the treatments that the NHS is giving out.

These people are largely responsible for delivering medical care at some level or other. Perhaps not doctor level, but these people are responsible for making sure the people they are caring for are taking the medicines that doctors have prescribed and such like.

What does it tell you when these people shun the vaccine themselves?

To me, I just can't help feeling significantly concerned when such a significant proportion - I think some suggestions I've seen say 10 to 15% - of care staff don't have the confidence or understand it enough, to rush out and take the vaccine voluntarily.

Are these people being swayed by social media and fringe groups?

If so, that doesn't say much for the quality of training or the quality of people being employed in that sector, if that number trust social media more than they trust the profession in which they operate as (supposed) professionals themselves.

If these people are being swayed by conspiracy theories and hearsay regarding the vaccine, so much so that they'd unnecessarily risk giving their patients covid, how can we have confidence that they are doing their jobs properly in other aspects?

What other conspiracy theories are they reading? Are they basing the care they give daily, on their training, or on what some anonymous person told them on the t'interweb the other week.

Maybe it would be for the overall good, if some were barred from working in the sector if they aren't vaccinated... but for the reasons mentioned above, not the simplistic 'if they aren't vaccinated, their patients could catch it'.

IMV, if 10 to 15% do end up refusing the vaccine, then I think the government should seriously look to open a broader investigation into whether medical and care workers really have confidence in, and are really following the science and their training when they go about their daily jobs in general (nothing specific to covid).


I don't think it's much different from any other sector where you employ a large number of people in low skill low pay roles which require minimal education or critical thinking skills.

It's not uncommon in construction to come across older tradesmen who think there's nothing dangerous about asbestos and it's only weak-minded cowards who got it banned. It's also very common for the rank and file to perceive H&S training as a scam to make money from them and make their lives difficult on purpose. No amount of evidence of asbestosis or the amount of people killed falling off ladders through misuse will change their minds!

But ultimately you're not paying care assistants (or building site labourers) for their intellect and if you need to force employees to take actions to make the workplace safe for others (as legislation has done in construction) then so be it.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405002

Postby 9873210 » April 17th, 2021, 9:55 pm

vagrantbrain wrote:Not difficult at all - Vaccinations are recorded on your Enhanced Medical Summary which your GP receptionist can print off for you in a matter of seconds. I've got to submit mine once a year to my employers so I don't see why care homes would find it any harder.


Medical records contain information that is no business of any employer. There is no need to require, encourage, or even permit disclosure of all of it to certify vaccination status.

I am having a hard time thinking of any legitimate reason an employer would need access to an Enhanced Medical Summary, and even if they did the appropriate action would be sharing records with a medical professional, under medical ethics, including confidentiality, who could certify what they really cared about.

It is clear that you do not give a toss about your own privacy, and your employer does not give a toss about anybody's privacy. Requiring blanket disclosure of medical information does serious harm to the Doctor-patient relationship.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405006

Postby AleisterCrowley » April 17th, 2021, 10:34 pm

"So, Mary, we are are happy to take you on as a cook, but you'll need to provide evidence that you are typhoid-free otherwise many lives will be put at risk"
"Damned if I will, that's my business alone. You have no right to demand that"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405011

Postby 1nvest » April 17th, 2021, 10:58 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:It would take a strange kind of individual that wanted to work in a care home, i.e. wanted to look after elderly people, but was not prepared to take every measure possible to protect those people, including vaccination.

The vaccine helps prevent serious issues once having contracted Covid, doesn't prevent you actually catching it. As such why should individuals be forced to inject something that might bring on early dementia or whatever as of yet unknown longer term side effects when the risk of unvaccinated contraction of Covid for many is very very small.

Herd immunity and vaccinations was never the answer, default standard practice is to quarantine/close-borders, but B Johnson's dad didn't like the idea of not being able to jet to and fro between his European homes so BJ obliged by leaving the borders wide open and instead opted for 'herd immunity'. Thankfully, at least so far, it hasn't mutated into something where a 30%+ contraction fatality rate is evident, but there's still plenty of opportunities for it to do so (only takes 1 in 7 billion).

And not to forget that allowing it in opened up better opportunities for billions of taxpayers money to be gifted as contracts by the Tories to their mates, seemingly more often for very little in return to the public benefit.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405012

Postby vagrantbrain » April 17th, 2021, 11:12 pm

9873210 wrote:
vagrantbrain wrote:Not difficult at all - Vaccinations are recorded on your Enhanced Medical Summary which your GP receptionist can print off for you in a matter of seconds. I've got to submit mine once a year to my employers so I don't see why care homes would find it any harder.


Medical records contain information that is no business of any employer. There is no need to require, encourage, or even permit disclosure of all of it to certify vaccination status.

I am having a hard time thinking of any legitimate reason an employer would need access to an Enhanced Medical Summary, and even if they did the appropriate action would be sharing records with a medical professional, under medical ethics, including confidentiality, who could certify what they really cared about.

It is clear that you do not give a toss about your own privacy, and your employer does not give a toss about anybody's privacy. Requiring blanket disclosure of medical information does serious harm to the Doctor-patient relationship.


Wind your neck in. Not everyone does a cushy desk job, and employers in certain industries have legal obligations to monitor the health of their employees. The NHS is strictly forbidden from supplying access to your medical records to a third party without a substantial effort hence the reason for the request to provide an EMS.

I work for the MOD in two roles - one is as a classified worker under the Ionising Radiation Regulations 2017 which requires me to have a medical examination every year. Part of this includes a discussion of any current medical conditions to ensure that I am not putting myself or anyone else at unnecessary risk. Without access to your medical records the EMS provides an overview of your current health for the occupation health doctors to work from. This is a legal requirement for the job role.

The second role is in the reserve forces. Military personnel are not entitled to NHS treatment instead primary healthcare is provided by Defence Medical Services. Reservists fall between the two. The NHS are legally unable to share information with DMS which means that they have no direct access to your medical records. The EMS allows the unit medical officer to see what treatments a soldier has had from the NHS to allow them to ensure we are fit to deploy and not suffering from any injuries or conditions that would make us a liability in places where medical facilities are limited, and also to see what vaccinations you've already had to avoid wasting money on providing unnecessary medical treatment. This is a legal requirement for the job role.

Anyone whos had any form of security clearance or vetting also needs to provide this information, along with a lot more intimate personal stuff. This is a legal requirement.

All this is ultimately voluntary as there's plenty of other jobs out there for those who have an issue with their employer being involved in their health.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405013

Postby 1nvest » April 17th, 2021, 11:17 pm

Better to just vaccinate the patients/those in care. My 89 year old mother was vaccinated with the first dose (Pfizer) and 2 weeks later whilst in hospital caught Covid ... and that's now nearly 2 months ago and she's not expressed any symptoms whatsoever, as is the case for very many who contract Covid.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. All the bending the majority have to keep doing because a few might be offended, or die. It's wrong that the many/whole have to be vaccinated largely to no end other than alleviating the symptoms/risk to a very very small number that are adversely hit by contraction. As is having locked the whole into prison (lockdown), over 65 million lost life years and many other social and other factors as a consequence.

Claims of alleviating the NHS are over-cooked, over 95% of the NHS has gone quiet whilst 5% have been over-run - those on the Covid front line. GP's, dentists ...etc. etc. etc. have mostly been idle. Fundamentally massive under-utilisation of assets/poor management.

As has direction of 'helicopter money' £2500/month to some, nothing to others in furlough payments. Instead of furlough money going to those more likely to need to spend it, its largely gone to those who could otherwise get by without it, so its largely just been 'saved' instead of its primary real purpose of being to promote spending/economic activity. But correct deployment would have meant a Tory government mostly issuing helicopter money to Labour voters, politically 'incorrect'.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405016

Postby vagrantbrain » April 17th, 2021, 11:39 pm

1nvest wrote:As has direction of 'helicopter money' £2500/month to some, nothing to others in furlough payments. Instead of furlough money going to those more likely to need to spend it, its largely gone to those who could otherwise get by without it, so its largely just been 'saved' instead of its primary real purpose of being to promote spending/economic activity. But correct deployment would have meant a Tory government mostly issuing helicopter money to Labour voters, politically 'incorrect'.


At the risk of derailing the thread even further than i've already done, I'd disagree with that. Most of the people who have been furloughed are young people in low paying retail/hospitality/tourism jobs whose employers have been forced to shut up shop. No doubt a few have managed to find temporary employment elsewhere and so have had some extra cash but the majority have been trying to survive on 80% of their normal (low) wage so hardly likely to be saving anything at all. In fact those most likely to have built up their savings are those in white collar jobs who can work from home and have continued in employment. I don't know many low paid young people who vote tory!

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405019

Postby DrFfybes » April 17th, 2021, 11:57 pm

1nvest wrote:Better to just vaccinate the patients/those in care. My 89 year old mother was vaccinated with the first dose (Pfizer) and 2 weeks later whilst in hospital caught Covid ... and that's now nearly 2 months ago and she's not expressed any symptoms whatsoever, as is the case for very many who contract Covid.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. All the bending the majority have to keep doing because a few might be offended, or die. It's wrong that the many/whole have to be vaccinated largely to no end other than alleviating the symptoms/risk to a very very small number that are adversely hit by contraction. As is having locked the whole into prison (lockdown), over 65 million lost life years and many other social and other factors as a consequence.
.


You have said repeatedly that you are against a lockdown.

Just out of interest, how many premature deaths do you feel are acceptable before action is taken to constrain the spread of Covid?

Given the inevitable overwhelming of the NHS without a lockdown, what would you suggest we do with the tens or hundreds of thousands left to die without proper care?

Paul

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405023

Postby 1nvest » April 18th, 2021, 12:34 am

DrFfybes wrote:You have said repeatedly that you are against a lockdown.

Lockdown never occurred, millions still flew into the UK during 'lockdown', unrecorded, not tracked, not tested. BJ's mate, Dom, drove the length of the country and back down again during 'lockdown'. Millions who weren't gifted helicopter money had no other choice other than to continue working.

Just out of interest, how many premature deaths do you feel are acceptable before action is taken to constrain the spread of Covid?

The deaths are over-stated. In many cases I suspect GP's added Covid to death certificates wording without even having seen the body. Most GP's have dropped to just via telephone call consultations etc.

65 million population, 85 year life expectancy, and 765,000 might be expected to die each year. 2020 saw the number at 800,000, so above average. Proportionately fewer than the above average number that died in 1976 when there was a heat wave.

Given the inevitable overwhelming of the NHS without a lockdown, what would you suggest we do with the tens or hundreds of thousands left to die without proper care?


Only a very small part of the NHS is stretched, the Covid front liners, the large majority of it is largely idle. With good management resources would be redistributed to cope with changing conditions, but neither the government nor NHS are well manged/competent. Hancock as Sec of Health and Care for instance justified 1% pay rises for NHS on the basis that that is the inflation rate, a contrived figure that the state defines when the real rate of inflation is all too clearly higher than that. Londoner for instance are paying near 10% more towards Greater London funding alone. Accommodation, food and clothing item costs have increased much more than 1% and for many they account for the bulk of spending. In short blatant lies, and blatant liars soon lose all respect/recognition.

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405060

Postby Mike88 » April 18th, 2021, 10:16 am

As I understand it, the consultation document is limited to care home staff yet there are probably many thousand more care workers in the community visiting countless elderly people on a daily basis. Why?

88V8
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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405178

Postby 88V8 » April 18th, 2021, 8:03 pm

Mike88 wrote:As I understand it, the consultation document is limited to care home staff yet there are probably many thousand more care workers in the community visiting countless elderly people on a daily basis. Why?

What a good point.
Worth tagging on at the end when you respond to the consultation, and worth raising with your MP.

V8

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Re: Govt consultation on mandatory vaccination of care home staff

#405195

Postby tjh290633 » April 18th, 2021, 10:45 pm

Our Health Centre reports 98.1% of Health and Social Care workers have had their first jab and that 50.1% have had their second jabs, see https://www.facebook.com/MSHCGPs/photos ... 812225487/ from 9th April.

Those are patients registered with our practice.There will be more from the surrounding area who come in, of course.

TJH


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