July 19th

[zico]

I took a train from Cardiff to Bristol this morning. The rules have not changed in Wales and everyone at Cardiff Central wore a face covering.

Arriving at Bristol Temple Meads I would say about 50% were wearing face coverings and 50% not. Today's easing has certainly been noticed by many people.

The train was crowded and most people wore masks on the train. They did not remove them when we went under the Severn. Whereas Bristol TM is a fairly open station with lots of fresh air. So maybe people really are "using their judgement"?

Our experiences in Yorkshire today is that nothing has changed in regard to mask-wearing. I went to a local Aldi, there were only one or two people not wearing masks - just like in previous weeks. My wife went to Meadowhall (a large shopping centre) and except for a few small groups of teenagers, virtually everyone (including other teenagers and some smaller children) were wearing masks.

Based on this evidence, I would say that the public with their British commonsense could save us from overloading our hospitals, and creating a huge new wave of long-term illness and deaths.

But ... and it's a huge but ...... nightclubs have re-opened. Young unvaccinated people are mingling in the ideal conditions to spread the Wuhan virus (let alone the far more infectious Delta/India variant). It'll inevitably spread widely amongst the younger generation, and then - just like before (and the time before) - it'll work its way up the generations. This decision probably ranks in the top 10 list of stupid Covid decisions made since January 2020, though there is stiff competition.

Luckily our brilliant government has today realised how dangerous it is to open nightclubs to unvaccinated people. Of course, there's no way they could have realised this before, for example by looking at the 10-fold increase in cases after the Netherlands opened nightclubs.
Anyway, in a mere 11 weeks time at the end of September, the government will require clubbers to be double vaccinated. All we need now is for the Delta virus to agree to take a summer break until then.

[Julian]

…
Luckily our brilliant government has today realised how dangerous it is to open nightclubs to unvaccinated people. Of course, there's no way they could have realised this before, for example by looking at the 10-fold increase in cases after the Netherlands opened nightclubs.
Anyway, in a mere 11 weeks time at the end of September, the government will require clubbers to be double vaccinated. All we need now is for the Delta virus to agree to take a summer break until then.

Very similar to the defences put up to prevent us importing the Delta variant from India. The solution? Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India, but not until after a delay so that a whole flood of potentially infected people could make their return trips before the new rules came into place. Putting India on the red list earlier wouldn’t have kept the Delta variant out but acting more quickly, and I would say more rationally, would I suspect have significantly reduced the number of early community seed cases so that the vaccines could maintain their lead for at least a bit longer. And now, as you say, here we go again but with nightclubs this time.

- Julian

[pje16]

Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India

Had we done that back in March 2020 when 3 flights a day for an entire week were allowed to come in from Wuhan
the whole pandemic would never as been as bad as it has been
Substite Wuhan for India to prevent smarta*se comments !

[zico]

…
Luckily our brilliant government has today realised how dangerous it is to open nightclubs to unvaccinated people. Of course, there's no way they could have realised this before, for example by looking at the 10-fold increase in cases after the Netherlands opened nightclubs.
Anyway, in a mere 11 weeks time at the end of September, the government will require clubbers to be double vaccinated. All we need now is for the Delta virus to agree to take a summer break until then.

Very similar to the defences put up to prevent us importing the Delta variant from India. The solution? Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India, but not until after a delay so that a whole flood of potentially infected people could make their return trips before the new rules came into place. Putting India on the red list earlier wouldn’t have kept the Delta variant out but acting more quickly, and I would say more rationally, would I suspect have significantly reduced the number of early community seed cases so that the vaccines could maintain their lead for at least a bit longer. And now, as you say, here we go again but with nightclubs this time.

- Julian

I remember reading about a military man who served on "Lessons Learned" committees, who suggested the name should be changed to "Continually Repeated Mistakes" because lessons learned weren't actually put into practice.

It's really discouraging to watch such repeated ineptitude.
"It won't be a problem, we don't need to take any advance precautions".
"The numbers are very small, it's not a priority"
"OK, infections are high, but hospitalisation rates are very low, so it's not a priority".
"OK, hospitalisations are high, but deaths are pretty low, so it's not a priority".

Deaths rise to high levels.

"We're not happy about having to live with restrictions, how on earth did that happen?"
"Look, we can't just hide away for ever and ever, we've just got to get on with our lives, and live with it". (A.k.a. "Nothing can be done now, it's too late")
"Nobody could have possibly foreseen how bad it would get".

[zico]

Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India

Had we done that back in March 2020 when 3 flights a day for an entire week were allowed to come in from Wuhan
the whole pandemic would never as been as bad as it has been
Substite Wuhan for India to prevent smarta*se comments !

We concentrated on Wuhan when it was obvious the virus was spreading amongst holidaymakers in northern Italy and in Spain, partly because we lacked the foresight/gumption/intellect to grasp the nettle and risk unpopularity by quarantining British holidaymakers returning home.
UK border control has been a joke pretty much throughout the pandemic (including the voluntary "scouts honour" quarantine system).
Back in September/October we used the Chunnel to visit France and Germany, had our necessary Covid papers ready for the UK customs post, but all they wanted was to see our passports.

[Dod101]

Lovely. All those who know better are having a field day with all the active threads on this Board. I wonder why they do not put themselves forward for membership of Sage?

Dod

[pje16]

Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India

Had we done that back in March 2020 when 3 flights a day for an entire week were allowed to come in from Wuhan
the whole pandemic would never as been as bad as it has been
Substite Wuhan for India to prevent smarta*se comments !

We concentrated on Wuhan when it was obvious the virus was spreading amongst holidaymakers in northern Italy and in Spain, partly because we lacked the foresight/gumption/intellect to grasp the nettle and risk unpopularity by quarantining British holidaymakers returning home.
UK border control has been a joke pretty much throughout the pandemic (including the voluntary "scouts honour" quarantine system).
Back in September/October we used the Chunnel to visit France and Germany, had our necessary Covid papers ready for the UK customs post, but all they wanted was to see our passports.

haven't heard of "gumption" for ages (Great word)
UK Gov doesn't have any of it

[Mike4]

Lovely. All those who know better are having a field day with all the active threads on this Board. I wonder why they do not put themselves forward for membership of Sage?

Dod

That would be pointless, because the government regularly ignores the advice of SAGE. (Due to 'political considerations' also having to be taken into account, apparently.)

[Lootman]

Lovely. All those who know better are having a field day with all the active threads on this Board. I wonder why they do not put themselves forward for membership of Sage?

That would be pointless, because the government regularly ignores the advice of SAGE. (Due to 'political considerations' also having to be taken into account, apparently.)

Is it your considered and informed opinion that there are no political considerations that are relevant?

[Mike4]

Lovely. All those who know better are having a field day with all the active threads on this Board. I wonder why they do not put themselves forward for membership of Sage?

That would be pointless, because the government regularly ignores the advice of SAGE. (Due to 'political considerations' also having to be taken into account, apparently.)

Is it your considered and informed opinion that there are no political considerations that are relevant?

And once again Looty drags out his knackered and well used straw man and presses it into service. I'm surprised it hasn't fallen to bits by now, or caught fire from all the friction it causes.

[Lootman]

That would be pointless, because the government regularly ignores the advice of SAGE. (Due to 'political considerations' also having to be taken into account, apparently.)

Is it your considered and informed opinion that there are no political considerations that are relevant?

And once again Looty drags out his knackered and well used straw man and presses it into service. I'm surprised it hasn't fallen to bits by now, or caught fire from all the friction it causes.

I will take that as a "no" then.

[zico]

Is it your considered and informed opinion that there are no political considerations that are relevant?

Clearly, political considerations are very relevant for this government because we've been hearing for the last week or two that even though the data looks increasingly bad, Boris Johnson can't afford politically to delay or dilute "Freedom Day" because his Conservative backbenchers wouldn't stand for it. The most he's been able to do is say "Freedom Day, but be a bit less demob-happy about it than we were a couple of weeks ago."

So in this case, the interests of 400 or so Conservative backbenchers trump the interests of the rest of England's population.

[Lootman]

Is it your considered and informed opinion that there are no political considerations that are relevant?

Clearly, political considerations are very relevant for this government because we've been hearing for the last week or two that even though the data looks increasingly bad, Boris Johnson can't afford politically to delay or dilute "Freedom Day" because his Conservative backbenchers wouldn't stand for it. The most he's been able to do is say "Freedom Day, but be a bit less demob-happy about it than we were a couple of weeks ago."

So in this case, the interests of 400 or so Conservative backbenchers trump the interests of the rest of England's population.

I do not agree with all of yesterday's changes. In particular I disagree with reopening nightclubs.

My real point was to debunk Mike4's bizarre but utterly consistent claim that political factors do not matter.

[DrFfybes]

Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India

Had we done that back in March 2020 when 3 flights a day for an entire week were allowed to come in from Wuhan
the whole pandemic would never as been as bad as it has been
Substite Wuhan for India to prevent smarta*se comments !

Many of the infection events came in from Europe, perticularly with people returning from ski trips. 2 people from MrsF's office came back infected from Italy in March. Fortunately their office was beng refurbed whilst they were away so they had their laptops etc at home and were told to stay home for a week, but I wonder how many more were on the plane with them.

Paul

[Dod101]

Is it your considered and informed opinion that there are no political considerations that are relevant?

Clearly, political considerations are very relevant for this government because we've been hearing for the last week or two that even though the data looks increasingly bad, Boris Johnson can't afford politically to delay or dilute "Freedom Day" because his Conservative backbenchers wouldn't stand for it. The most he's been able to do is say "Freedom Day, but be a bit less demob-happy about it than we were a couple of weeks ago."

So in this case, the interests of 400 or so Conservative backbenchers trump the interests of the rest of England's population.

Well what do you know. We still live in a democracy and those 400 or so back benchers represent the people who live in their constituencies. I should think at least some of them actually reflect the thinking of their constituents. There is such a lot of nonsense written on these Boards by opinionated but probably no better informed than the rest of us people. They must still be missing their corner in the pub. In fact I think most are now open. Why do they not go there and vent their anguish?

Dod

[redsturgeon]

Moderator Message:
No more politics here please

[ursaminortaur]

…
Luckily our brilliant government has today realised how dangerous it is to open nightclubs to unvaccinated people. Of course, there's no way they could have realised this before, for example by looking at the 10-fold increase in cases after the Netherlands opened nightclubs.
Anyway, in a mere 11 weeks time at the end of September, the government will require clubbers to be double vaccinated. All we need now is for the Delta virus to agree to take a summer break until then.

Very similar to the defences put up to prevent us importing the Delta variant from India. The solution? Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India, but not until after a delay so that a whole flood of potentially infected people could make their return trips before the new rules came into place. Putting India on the red list earlier wouldn’t have kept the Delta variant out but acting more quickly, and I would say more rationally, would I suspect have significantly reduced the number of early community seed cases so that the vaccines could maintain their lead for at least a bit longer. And now, as you say, here we go again but with nightclubs this time.

- Julian

I remember reading about a military man who served on "Lessons Learned" committees, who suggested the name should be changed to "Continually Repeated Mistakes" because lessons learned weren't actually put into practice.

It's really discouraging to watch such repeated ineptitude.
"It won't be a problem, we don't need to take any advance precautions".
"The numbers are very small, it's not a priority"
"OK, infections are high, but hospitalisation rates are very low, so it's not a priority".
"OK, hospitalisations are high, but deaths are pretty low, so it's not a priority".

Deaths rise to high levels.

"We're not happy about having to live with restrictions, how on earth did that happen?"
"Look, we can't just hide away for ever and ever, we've just got to get on with our lives, and live with it". (A.k.a. "Nothing can be done now, it's too late")
"Nobody could have possibly foreseen how bad it would get".

As "Yes Prime minister" put it

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751831/characters/nm0001329

Sir Richard Wharton : Standard Foreign Office response in a time of crisis.

Sir Richard Wharton : In stage one we say nothing is going to happen.

Sir Humphrey Appleby : Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.

Sir Richard Wharton : In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we *can* do.

Sir Humphrey Appleby : Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

[servodude]

Very similar to the defences put up to prevent us importing the Delta variant from India. The solution? Put in place strong hotel quarantine measures for all travellers arriving from India, but not until after a delay so that a whole flood of potentially infected people could make their return trips before the new rules came into place. Putting India on the red list earlier wouldn’t have kept the Delta variant out but acting more quickly, and I would say more rationally, would I suspect have significantly reduced the number of early community seed cases so that the vaccines could maintain their lead for at least a bit longer. And now, as you say, here we go again but with nightclubs this time.

- Julian

I remember reading about a military man who served on "Lessons Learned" committees, who suggested the name should be changed to "Continually Repeated Mistakes" because lessons learned weren't actually put into practice.

It's really discouraging to watch such repeated ineptitude.
"It won't be a problem, we don't need to take any advance precautions".
"The numbers are very small, it's not a priority"
"OK, infections are high, but hospitalisation rates are very low, so it's not a priority".
"OK, hospitalisations are high, but deaths are pretty low, so it's not a priority".

Deaths rise to high levels.

"We're not happy about having to live with restrictions, how on earth did that happen?"
"Look, we can't just hide away for ever and ever, we've just got to get on with our lives, and live with it". (A.k.a. "Nothing can be done now, it's too late")
"Nobody could have possibly foreseen how bad it would get".

As "Yes Prime minister" put it

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751831/characters/nm0001329

Sir Richard Wharton : Standard Foreign Office response in a time of crisis.

Sir Richard Wharton : In stage one we say nothing is going to happen.

Sir Humphrey Appleby : Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.

Sir Richard Wharton : In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we *can* do.

Sir Humphrey Appleby : Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

It was meant to be a satire! Not a guide book!

[Sunnypad]

So....July 19th went as those of us labelled "conspiracy theorists" said it would.

Specifically?...

Scott.

Announcement of vax ID on the same day.

[Itsallaguess]

I am 65, double vaxxed but my antibody count is not as high as I'd like.

Out of interest John, what was your spacing between first and second vaccine?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess