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Mask to protect owner

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Julian
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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427594

Postby Julian » July 14th, 2021, 11:35 am

servodude wrote:
Lootman wrote:
servodude wrote:In the absence of anything to compel the "i don't want to wear one" crew during a period where there's a lot of ongoing spread I'd probably go for a well fitted disposable N95 or higher thing

I have been using Vogmask N99 masks since the beginning. Clearly they provide more protection, and I also find them more comfortable to wear than the standard N95s, which I have also used. And as someone else mentioned, the valve reduces the fogging of glasses if you wear them.

I am happy to see others wear the blue throwaway surgical masks, but for me they feel quite inadequate at protecting me rather than others.


Yeah they're great masks (we've has this conversation before :) ) and very comfortable (they're a great shape)

The one I had died pretty quickly when I used it cycling during the bad fire season a while ago though and I switched to a similar shaped competitor's mask but with the replaceable carbon filter that can be removed (and as a plus - the rest of the mask washed!)

I think Vogmask recommend replacing after a year of "light" use (sooner if used in anger) if I'd got that long out of it I would have kept using them

We did use the old Vog as a template though for some "casual" masks that the seamstress indoors knocked out when they were a thing
- they were even more comfy as I repurposed some soft silicone (from an nasal cannula) on the top side of the ear straps

Surgical masks are OK for catching snotters ;)
- the disposable N95 respirators though are a very different beast
- not least because they actually form an effective seal

- sd

The only times I've worn one of those throwaway blue surgical masks have been when medical facilities required me to use one of their masks instead of the one I usually wear. I never feel safe in those, they feel so flimsy and insecure and the fit around the cheeks is dreadful for me and even with the nose clip my glasses steamed up indicating a bad fit there. I'd obviously like both, a good fit and FFP3, but given the choice of a well-fitting FFP2 or a badly fitting FFP3 I'd go for the former in terms of protecting myself. However good the filter there is a huge gap in one's defences if some of the air being breathed in is not passing through the super-duper filter but is instead being pulled in around the edges. I wonder whether some of the persistent "it's to protect others not you" messaging is down to an acceptance that the throwaway paper surgical masks that so many people use just don't fit properly in many cases with air leaking in via the sides so basically very little protection for the wearer, doubly so now with the Delta variant where is is thought that fewer viral particles need to be breathed in to become infected.

Do you guys have any links to the masks you're talking about. I found what seems to be the Vogmask main site (https://www.vogmask.com/collections/all) and while the FAQ talks about their valved and non-valved masks the shop only seems to list one "collection" now, the non-valved version, with no mention of N99 certification that I could see. I'm wondering if the masks I'm seeing on this site are the ones you are talking Lootman about and, if not, whether Vogmask might have discontinued its N99 version.

I'd also be interested in any link you might have servodude to the one you use with the replaceable filter.

- Julian

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427616

Postby servodude » July 14th, 2021, 1:06 pm

Julian wrote:I'd also be interested in any link you might have servodude to the one you use with the replaceable filter


The one I have is by "Clear Collective"
https://www.clearcollective.com.au/collections/face-masks-with-valve
- but I imagine you'd find very similar things local to yourself or on the likes of Amazon

The N2.5 filters used are a standard commodity that you can pickup anywhere online (just choose the cheapest price for the quantity you want on ebay)

The one I have is valved but I use it for commuting by bike in pollution or smoke or pollen
- it also helps keep your face warm in winter :)

-sd

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427659

Postby Lootman » July 14th, 2021, 3:00 pm

Julian wrote:(https://www.vogmask.com/collections/all) and while the FAQ talks about their valved and non-valved masks the shop only seems to list one "collection" now, the non-valved version, with no mention of N99 certification that I could see. I'm wondering if the masks I'm seeing on this site are the ones you are talking Lootman about and, if not, whether Vogmask might have discontinued its N99 version.

I had a supply of Vogmask N99s from before Covid when I bought a batch to do some demolition work in my house. I have 4 of them and, as SD mentions, they are washable and so I have two always in use, and 2 in the wash.

So I have not tried to buy any since 2019 and I did hear that Vogmask might have paused availability on the grounds that, with an exhaust valve, they do not "protect others" (although they are still much better for others than you not wearing a mask at all). They are really designed for environments where there is a lot of smoke, soot, dust etc. and the purpose is to protect you and not to prevent you infecting others, so perhaps they withdrew it as a gesture to public health considerations. Some airlines do not allow you to use them on a plane, unless you fit a blue surgical mask over it.

But I would still have thought you can find them on the internet somewhere.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427676

Postby Julian » July 14th, 2021, 3:52 pm

Thanks both of you. I appreciate the extra info.

With the mask that servodude linked to mentioning PM2.5 filters it threw yet another classification into the N95/N99/KN99/FFP2/FFP3/etc alphabet soup so I did a bit of Googling and came across this web page with a fairly nice concise summary table regarding all of this stuff that might be of interest to others....

Image

And this table that actually coincidentally includes the vogmask although I suspect the non-valved one ...

Image

And this infographic of particle sizes & mention of PM2.5 ...

Image

[ Source with more explanation - https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/com ... ctiveness/ ]

- Julian

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427768

Postby servodude » July 14th, 2021, 11:20 pm

Julian wrote:Thanks both of you. I appreciate the extra info.

With the mask that servodude linked to mentioning PM2.5 filters it threw yet another classification into the N95/N99/KN99/FFP2/FFP3/etc alphabet soup so I did a bit of Googling and came across this web page with a fairly nice concise summary table regarding all of this stuff that might be of interest to others....


You can always trust a regulatory body to make it more obtuse than it needs to be ;)

In my head PM2.5 is a spec for the filter, and the other guff are the various standards for the masks to comply with.

In the circumstances where I use one they get really dirty if there's smoke/fumes in the air and it's really handy to be able to machine wash the outers and just add a new filter
- the Vog masks are great but you have to avoid submerging them in water; so it's difficult to clean them if they get sufficiently dirty and retain their effectiveness (which is very possibly why mine wore out so quickly)

The main thing though with any mask is getting the fit right for you
- if you have to keep adjusting it (or hanging your nose over it ;) ) it's more for theatre than your lungs

- sd

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427935

Postby 88V8 » July 15th, 2021, 9:00 pm

Article comparing the Vogmask and Cambridge and Airinum in some detail https://breathesafeair.com/cambridge-ma ... s-vogmask/
He comments that Vogmask is N95 and Cambridge N99.
Airinum fits [him] the best.

As to which is better, it depends.....

And afaic see, Vogmask isn't available over here anyway.

V8

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#467319

Postby 88V8 » December 19th, 2021, 4:30 pm

I bought the mask recommended in the latest Which.
The Airpop Pocket reusable.
https://www.airpophealth.com/uk/airpop-pocket-4pcs-black
Have to admit it was largely for reasons of vanity, we're going somewhere for Christmas and the blue disposable is not a great look.

First impressions, good. Despite having no nose clip, it fits well around my beard and my long nose.

But the fingernail-breaking plastic storage case at £10... meh.

Here it is from that retailer I use so seldom I'd forgotten my password... but next-day delivery... https://www.amazon.co.uk/AIRPOP-Reusable-Coverings-Contoured-Lightweight/dp/B09MSSR962

V8

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#467461

Postby servodude » December 20th, 2021, 5:04 am

88V8 wrote:I bought the mask recommended in the latest Which.
The Airpop Pocket reusable.
https://www.airpophealth.com/uk/airpop-pocket-4pcs-black
Have to admit it was largely for reasons of vanity, we're going somewhere for Christmas and the blue disposable is not a great look.

First impressions, good. Despite having no nose clip, it fits well around my beard and my long nose.

But the fingernail-breaking plastic storage case at £10... meh.

Here it is from that retailer I use so seldom I'd forgotten my password... but next-day delivery... https://www.amazon.co.uk/AIRPOP-Reusable-Coverings-Contoured-Lightweight/dp/B09MSSR962

V8


They look lightweight and spacious; I might have to look for something similar

The beard thing takes a bit of thought
I originally shaved mine off when masks became a thing only to discover that 6 hour stubble is worse - to be fair to the manufacturers though I could probably do without ear loops and use the soft side of velcro to stick the things to my face
- and once it hits the 3" mark it becomes a question of trying to tuck it in or have a chin that looks like the back end of a Tetley chimp
- no one ever said a pandemic was easy

- sd

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#467512

Postby bungeejumper » December 20th, 2021, 11:53 am


LOL, why does that remind me of a posing pouch? Still, it's nice to think that it'll still have a purpose when this covid thing has been consigned to history. Do they do it in an XXL size?

BJ

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#467542

Postby chas49 » December 20th, 2021, 1:35 pm

bungeejumper wrote:

LOL, why does that remind me of a posing pouch? Still, it's nice to think that it'll still have a purpose when this covid thing has been consigned to history. Do they do it in an XXL size?

BJ


as to "why" it reminds you, only you can answer :)

However =>>
Moderator Message:
Can we not go too far off-topic please (chas49)

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#467744

Postby 88V8 » December 21st, 2021, 10:33 am

servodude wrote:
88V8 wrote:...it fits well around my beard and my long nose.

They look lightweight and spacious; I might have to look for something similar

The beard thing takes a bit of thought ...once it hits the 3" mark it becomes a question of trying to tuck it in or have a chin that looks like the back end of a Tetley chimp..

I shall try not to carry that image.

My beard has been in-situ since 1978 so it's almost an ancient monument.
But in length it's more Clooney** than Gandalf.

I wonder about the filtering qualities of a beard.

The plastic mask case, being washable, is at least a step up from the ziplock bag in which I keep my blue 'disposable' which is disposable in that I dispose of it when it becomes too grubby and manky or this weekend when the plastic bag becomes so tired that the mask falls straight through the bottom onto the floor. On this occasion, as the mask was quite new I picked it up and dusted it off for further use, after all covid doesn't live on the floor.

V8
** I have a degree in self-delusion.

Julian
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Re: Mask to protect owner

#467785

Postby Julian » December 21st, 2021, 2:01 pm

88V8 wrote:… the ziplock bag in which I keep my blue 'disposable' which is disposable in that I dispose of it when it becomes too grubby and manky or this weekend when the plastic bag becomes so tired that the mask falls straight through the bottom onto the floor. On this occasion, as the mask was quite new I picked it up and dusted it off for further use, after all covid doesn't live on the floor.

In the early stages of this pandemic when I was researching masks I seem to remember reading that the “proper” (as opposed to uncertified look-alikes) disposable surgical masks have an electrostatic layer designed to attract mid-size particles and that moisture from breathing through it nullifies that charge over time which is why they should be replaced I think every 4 hours. From that research I also remember reading that mid sized particles are the most troublesome to filter out, larger particles can’t physically get through a filter that still allows the wearer to breath comfortably and small particles are low mass so often don’t carry enough momentum to penetrate a decent mask. The electrostatic layers is designed to handle the mid sized particles to actively attract and trap them as they try to get through the mask. That might be something to consider re your mask replacement strategy, or maybe you’re so messy that your masks don’t make it to the 4 hour mark before they get too grubby and manky :)

- Julian

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#468697

Postby XFool » December 27th, 2021, 5:17 pm

Some Covid masks are better than others. I know – I’m the Mask Nerd

The Guardian

Cloth or surgical masks just don’t cut it – respirators are far more effective, and they’re comfortable too

Aaron Collins is a engineer who tests and reviews masks

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#468858

Postby stockton » December 28th, 2021, 6:22 pm

Can someone explain how you get five times better than 50% efficiency ?

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#468865

Postby 9873210 » December 28th, 2021, 6:58 pm

stockton wrote:Can someone explain how you get five times better than 50% efficiency ?


By measuring the fraction that gets through rather than the fraction that gets stopped.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#468866

Postby GrahamPlatt » December 28th, 2021, 7:01 pm

stockton wrote:Can someone explain how you get five times better than 50% efficiency ?


0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5 = 0.03125... i.e. ~97(%)

Or 2^5 = 32, 1/32 = 0.03125.. same thing.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#468907

Postby Julian » December 29th, 2021, 12:01 am

GrahamPlatt wrote:
stockton wrote:Can someone explain how you get five times better than 50% efficiency ?


0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5 = 0.03125... i.e. ~97(%)

Or 2^5 = 32, 1/32 = 0.03125.. same thing.

I’d interpreted the logic as - the 50% efficient mask still lets through 50% of particles (or whatever is being measured for the efficiency rating) so for a mask to be 5 times better it should only let through one fifth as many particles, in other words only 10% get through, so one could say that a mask that is 90% efficient at blocking whatever particles are being used for the testing is 5 times better than one that only blocks 50%.

- Julian

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#468920

Postby GrahamPlatt » December 29th, 2021, 5:42 am

Julian wrote:
GrahamPlatt wrote:
stockton wrote:Can someone explain how you get five times better than 50% efficiency ?


0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5 = 0.03125... i.e. ~97(%)

Or 2^5 = 32, 1/32 = 0.03125.. same thing.

I’d interpreted the logic as - the 50% efficient mask still lets through 50% of particles (or whatever is being measured for the efficiency rating) so for a mask to be 5 times better it should only let through one fifth as many particles, in other words only 10% get through, so one could say that a mask that is 90% efficient at blocking whatever particles are being used for the testing is 5 times better than one that only blocks 50%.

- Julian


Fascinating. I had not considered that angle. I’d simply thought of the problem as a chain of five 50% effective filters. A different interpretation leads to a >three-fold difference in claimed performance.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#468988

Postby 88V8 » December 29th, 2021, 12:07 pm

Julian wrote:
88V8 wrote:… the ziplock bag in which I keep my blue 'disposable' which is disposable in that I dispose of it when it becomes too grubby and manky ...

In the early stages of this pandemic when I was researching masks I seem to remember reading that the “proper” (as opposed to uncertified look-alikes) disposable surgical masks have an electrostatic layer designed to attract mid-size particles and that moisture from breathing through it nullifies that charge over time which is why they should be replaced I think every 4 hours.

Thankyou.
Didn't know that.
So I could restore it by rubbing on a nylon carpet?
Now all I need is a piece of nylon carpet.

V8

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#469046

Postby Julian » December 29th, 2021, 6:14 pm

88V8 wrote:
Julian wrote:
88V8 wrote:… the ziplock bag in which I keep my blue 'disposable' which is disposable in that I dispose of it when it becomes too grubby and manky ...

In the early stages of this pandemic when I was researching masks I seem to remember reading that the “proper” (as opposed to uncertified look-alikes) disposable surgical masks have an electrostatic layer designed to attract mid-size particles and that moisture from breathing through it nullifies that charge over time which is why they should be replaced I think every 4 hours.

Thankyou.
Didn't know that.
So I could restore it by rubbing on a nylon carpet?
Now all I need is a piece of nylon carpet.

V8

Or a polyester shirt might work just as well :)

- Julian


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