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Mask to protect owner

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Jonetc15
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Mask to protect owner

#426413

Postby Jonetc15 » July 10th, 2021, 12:43 pm

Until now I have used the normal masks that everyone else wears. It's now constantly said that masks are mainly protect others. However, because my immune system is below par, I’m trying to find a type of mask that will protect me from other people (while of course protecting them from me).

I assume that FFP3 is the best standard, but due to my inexpert searching of Amazon I haven’t found anything obviously suitable. I’m happy to have one-use disposable and/or washable/disposable. I’ll be most grateful for any suggestions.

TIA
Jon

P.S. Due to my incompetence I tried to post a similar message on one of the Covid-19 topics but now can’t trace it… So mega-apologies for any duplication.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#426450

Postby Julian » July 10th, 2021, 2:22 pm

My immune system is OK, as far as I'm aware, but even so I've been going through the same though process so would be very interested in whatever answers come up. Personally I'm more interested in re-usable FFP3 but have not been able to find anything yet.

The closest things that I've found so far are...

1 - With so much snake oil about in the mask business I find even an FFP2 mask that is properly certified, and crucially that fits properly, at least somewhat more reassuring than those paper FFP2 surgical masks that at least for me just will not seal properly however much I fiddle with the nose clip. On that score the one I have bookmarked that looks good and is one of my fall-backs if I can't find something suitable with an FFP3 rating is - https://smartcoverco.co.uk/collections/ ... cover-ffp2 . I haven't tried it yet so am just reporting on what my searching has thrown up so far rather than any first-hand recommendation.

2 - On the disposable FFP3 again this is just reporting on my research rather than a first-hand recommendation but I have these stored in my Amazon wish list(*) again as a fall-back in case I can't find a good reusable FFP3 option - https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08K2M49PR/ . Pretty decent reviews and I also prefer that style with flat front as opposed to the sort of "vertical duck's beak" pointier style not just because of aesthetics but because it articulates a bit better and allows both nose and chin seals to stay fairly solidly in place when moving one's jaw (i.e. when talking).

3 - Finally I do own this one - https://cambridgemask.com/products/the-churchill . For me this one hasn't 100% worked out I think mostly because I am slap bang in the middle between "M" and "L" sizes so neither are a particularly good fit. I also don't like that the ear loops are made of very sturdy material. Some might think that is good but for me it means they feel as if they are too big to stay firmly behind my ears; I actually prefer flimsier elastic ear loops. I might yet give this mask another go though because it appears to meet FFP2 certification and potentially be most of the way to FFP3 although for reasons they explain on their web site (https://info.cambridgemask.com/hc/en-us ... rotection-) they don't quite meet the official liquid aerosol filtration rate required to be able to claim full FFP3 rating.

On another point you (Jon) say ...

Jonetc15 wrote:... It's now constantly said that masks are mainly protect others. However, because my immune system is below par, I’m trying to find a type of mask that will protect me from other people (while of course protecting them from me).


When it comes to those rubbish paper masks I can buy the "it's more to protect others than to protect yourself" argument but once you get to a well-fitting even FFP2 mask let alone FFP3 I suspect there is good protection for yourself as well. One piece of evidence for this seems to me to be a recent Addenbrooke's Hospital study (https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/upg ... amatically) that says - "When Addenbrooke’s Hospital in Cambridge upgraded its face masks for staff working on COVID-19 wards to filtering face piece 3 (FFP3) respirators, it saw a dramatic fall – up to 100% – in hospital-acquired SARS-CoV-2 infections among these staff". I assume most of the patients on non-ICU Covid wards aren't wearing masks especially in the early stages when they might be getting oxygen via a nasal cannular so this does seem to be a case of the mask protecting the wearer, and protecting them very well at that since their actually in a Covid-19 ward.

In looking for the best mask I can get to protect myself though I am now wrestling with my conscience regarding that protect-others/protect-me debate. You might notice for instance that the final mask I mentioned (3 above) has an exhalation valve. Up until now I have refused to wear a mask with such a valve - the Cambridge Mask Co mask comes with a blanking plug to block it off, and even a little sticker to put on the outside that says "valve disabled") but it makes it less comfortable to wear over prolonged periods. I am now wondering about that policy going forward. Once all restrictions are lifted and I potentially find myself on a bus or train carriage with many people not wearing masks then, apart from those who can't wear a mask for health reasons(**), I am tempted to take the view that those people who have chosen not to wear masks in a confined indoor environment at a time when daily new cases are (probably) very high are recklessly endangering others and as such I will do whatever I need to do to optimise my personal protection and feel far less responsibility to protect the mask-less around me. As I say, I'm wrestling with my conscience on this one and am not (yet?) 100% comfortable with that position. Maybe with the help of suggestions by others here a good FFP3-rated re-usable mask will come to light that fits my needs perfectly (and I hope yours too Jon) that doesn't have an exhalation valve so it will become a moot point anyway.

For now my search goes on.

- Julian


(*) The way I bookmark stuff of interest for possible future purchase.

(**) And there people who have concerns about becoming infected but can't wear a mask would presumably not be going into that sort of environment anyway.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427287

Postby DrFfybes » July 13th, 2021, 9:43 am

DIY places like Screwfix and Toolstation sell FFP3 masks, and a variety of other masks and respitators. Good websites.

There are some quite good and comfy 'valved' masks available which have a valve that opens to breathe out, helps with steaming up of glasses etc. Obviously these are little use to protect others, but that doesn't seem to be the point from next week.

One point to consider, Covid will be with us for a long time yet, so if you are going to wear a mask all the time then you will need quite a few. Fit and comfort might be more important long term than price. There are some that are a lightweight plastic holder which the filters clip into. I have a JSP filterspec one which is OK and comfortable for several hours (it somes with goggles which are removable). I also have some "trend" branded ones which are claustrophobic, tight, thick, and really only useful for about an hour sanding woodwork.

As you are using these for viral protestion, you should probably not wear the same one for days, however as they are not going to clog like if you were in a dusty environment, then having a few and leaving them on a sunny windowsill for a few days between uses should kill off any virus on them.

Lastly an obvious point from the HSE handbook - PPE is really a last resort to prevent harm to the operative (in this case you on the train or wherever). The initial stages of safety are minimising the risk or finding alternative methods in the first place.

Paul

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427294

Postby pje16 » July 13th, 2021, 9:55 am

Can someone better informed than me explain how a mask protects others and not you
In my simple brain if the covering prevents germs leaving my nose/mouth one way, why does the opposite way not work
all i can find is

"A mask likely does not directly prevent the wearer from contracting the virus because any gaps between the mask and the person’s face leave room for virus particles to seep through"

That has nothing to do with the type of the mask, more a case of how well it fits

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427296

Postby swill453 » July 13th, 2021, 10:03 am

pje16 wrote:Can someone better informed than me explain how a mask protects others and not you
In my simple brain if the covering prevents germs leaving my nose/mouth one way, why does the opposite way not work

Imagine the mask is saturated with virus particles. If the mask covers your nose and mouth, one might imagine some would make their way through when you breathe in.

However if the mask is 2 meters distant from your mouth, you'd have to suck pretty hard to breathe them in...

Scott.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427303

Postby pje16 » July 13th, 2021, 10:09 am

Thanks Scott
It's unlikely to be saturated, but a miniscule little b*gger is enough ;)
cheers
Paul

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427305

Postby Itsallaguess » July 13th, 2021, 10:12 am

pje16 wrote:
Can someone better informed than me explain how a mask protects others and not you

In my simple brain if the covering prevents germs leaving my nose/mouth one way, why does the opposite way not work


From what I've read in the past, it's primarily to do with droplet-size, with the largest droplets being caught by a mask-wearer on the way 'out', and so primarily protecting others from them...

Do masks protect the people wearing them or the people around them?

“I think there’s enough evidence to say that the best benefit is for people who have COVID-19 to protect them from giving COVID-19 to other people, but you’re still going to get a benefit from wearing a mask if you don’t have COVID-19,” said Chin-Hong.

Masks may be more effective as a “source control” because they can prevent larger expelled droplets from evaporating into smaller droplets that can travel farther.

Another factor to remember, noted Rutherford, is that you could still catch the virus through the membranes in your eyes, a risk that masking does not eliminate.


https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

I don't think it's as clear-cut as saying they don't offer any protection to the wearer, but it's a question of degree as to where the most benefit is being delivered, given that viral-load is an important part of the infection process...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427306

Postby redsturgeon » July 13th, 2021, 10:13 am

The simplest of masks, even cloth will prevent large droplets from sneezes or talking from being forced out into the air. As has been said this is to protect others rather than the wearer. It is the combination of masks being worn by everyone to protect one's self and others that is the most effective and it is this effect that we lose when maybe 50% of the population decide that mask wearing is too inconvenient for them to bother with.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

John

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427308

Postby redsturgeon » July 13th, 2021, 10:16 am

One key point is that viral load is important in determining the severity of disease and wearing a mask even if it does not stop 100% of particles can significantly reduce viral load and thus both prevent disease or reduce severity.

John

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427309

Postby pje16 » July 13th, 2021, 10:18 am

Thanks for all the explanations, which all make sense to me
btw I am still wearing mine after July 19 despite what BoJo and his mates say :roll:

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427311

Postby Itsallaguess » July 13th, 2021, 10:21 am

pje16 wrote:
btw I am still wearing mine after July 19 despite what BoJo and his mates say


I'll continue to wear my mask in the same settings as I would do currently, but it'll be less to do with personal medical risk and much more around simple respect for the people being asked to work in the current mask-required environments.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427325

Postby redsturgeon » July 13th, 2021, 10:52 am

As cases rise in the community from the current 30,000 ish to 50,000 and beyond, mask wearing will become more important to individuals not less important.

I had been happy to eat indoors in restaurants in my city while cases were single figures per 100,000 residents. Now the cases are 250 per 100,000, a rise of 10,000 percent, I would be mad to relax my own mask wearing and risk taking in this environment. So despite what Boris says I will in fact be tightening up my own behaviour in response to this huge change in the threat level. It feels the logical thing to do.

I understand how the vaccine has changed the game and although my chances of death or even hospitalisation are slim, I have no desire to catch covid if I can take simple precautions to avoid it and of course if I don't catch it then I can't spread it to the three members of my household who are still waiting to be fully vaccinated.

I am lucky in that I run my own business but if I was being asked by an employer to come into work in the office because Rishi Sunak says it is the right thing to do then I would politely decline at this time.

John

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427351

Postby mc2fool » July 13th, 2021, 12:22 pm

pje16 wrote:Can someone better informed than me explain how a mask protects others and not you
In my simple brain if the covering prevents germs leaving my nose/mouth one way, why does the opposite way not work

In addition to the droplets size explanations there is also the matter of passive vectors ("fomites").

A mask with stop/reduce you spraying your potentially virus laden droplets over things that other people are likely to touch -- handrails, doorknobs, supermarket trolley handles, etc -- but it doesn't stop you touching such surfaces and later scratching your nose, rubbing your eyes, licking your fingers, etc, etc. ;)

(And before somebody says it, yes, the jury seems to be out on how just much covid transmission has been via fomites, but we are still being recommended to wash our hands regularly and AFAIK nobody has said that community venues should stop deep cleaning surfaces or shops stop having gel at their entrances, etc.)

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427354

Postby Jonetc15 » July 13th, 2021, 12:37 pm

Julian wrote:My immune system is OK, as far as I'm aware, but even so I've been going through the same though process so would be very interested in whatever answers come up. Personally I'm more interested in re-usable FFP3 but have not been able to find anything yet....

[Long and detailed analysis follows]

....For now my search goes on.

- Julian
....


Very many - belated - thanks indeed, Julian, for your time and trouble in replying at such length and with so much detail and for the follow-up. I'm constantly impressed by the number of people who are prepared to do this for the rest of us.

Thanks also to everyone else for contributing to the debate. Living north of the border we don't yet face a dilemma and will continue to have to use masks for the foreseeable future. And like John (redsturgeon) I'd continue to do so in any event.

All the very best

Jon

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427357

Postby Mike88 » July 13th, 2021, 12:46 pm


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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427508

Postby kempiejon » July 13th, 2021, 10:07 pm

Not sure if this is useful, I saw an article last week about a hospital changing it's mask protocol and staff seeing less infections
I think it's this hospital in Cambridge https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/coron ... 9-06-2021/ some more details here
https://www.authorea.com/users/421653/a ... c4fd70e0ec

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427531

Postby Mike4 » July 14th, 2021, 12:14 am

redsturgeon wrote:The simplest of masks, even cloth will prevent large droplets from sneezes or talking from being forced out into the air. As has been said this is to protect others rather than the wearer. It is the combination of masks being worn by everyone to protect one's self and others that is the most effective and it is this effect that we lose when maybe 50% of the population decide that mask wearing is too inconvenient for them to bother with.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

John


I called into the big Tesco in Newbury tonight after bellringing to get some, err... shopping*, and I'd estimate 10% of the customers in there were already not wearing masks. All fit and healthy-looking 20-40 year olds with no regard for anyone else.

This does not appear to bode well to me.


* Ok a bottle of wine. A fine Louis Jadot Beaujolais-Villages 2020, worth rather more than the nine quid they are flogging it for, IMO. Cheers!

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427539

Postby servodude » July 14th, 2021, 5:53 am

Mike4 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:The simplest of masks, even cloth will prevent large droplets from sneezes or talking from being forced out into the air. As has been said this is to protect others rather than the wearer. It is the combination of masks being worn by everyone to protect one's self and others that is the most effective and it is this effect that we lose when maybe 50% of the population decide that mask wearing is too inconvenient for them to bother with.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

John


I called into the big Tesco in Newbury tonight after bellringing to get some, err... shopping*, and I'd estimate 10% of the customers in there were already not wearing masks. All fit and healthy-looking 20-40 year olds with no regard for anyone else.

This does not appear to bode well to me.

* Ok a bottle of wine. A fine Louis Jadot Beaujolais-Villages 2020, worth rather more than the nine quid they are flogging it for, IMO. Cheers!


Stumbled across this article which is an interesting snapshot of various mask positions/arguments:
https://theconversation.com/covid-seven-reasons-mask-wearing-in-the-west-was-unnecessarily-delayed-164308

I don't think that the perceptions have fundamentally changed since the start of the pandemic (or indeed the 1918-19 pandemic where the same trite arguments were circulating with the bug)

Anyway..
In the absence of anything to compel the "i don't want to wear one" crew during a period where there's a lot of ongoing spread I'd probably go for a well fitted disposable N95 or higher thing (and limiting the time I was anywhere i needed to wear it)
- there have been links to a few already
- which one works best will be a personal fit based on size and face shape

If you go for one of the "non-disposable" ones (in quotes because they're not really) consider one where there is a replaceable filter (giving the most of the benefit)
- otherwise it's less non-disposable than you probably realise

It might be worth suggesting to Tesco they consider providing "Masked" checkouts or stores?
- or days/periods where the wearing of them is enforced?
- there are probably other suggestions that could help mitigate mingling

- sd

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427542

Postby Lootman » July 14th, 2021, 6:43 am

servodude wrote:In the absence of anything to compel the "i don't want to wear one" crew during a period where there's a lot of ongoing spread I'd probably go for a well fitted disposable N95 or higher thing

I have been using Vogmask N99 masks since the beginning. Clearly they provide more protection, and I also find them more comfortable to wear than the standard N95s, which I have also used. And as someone else mentioned, the valve reduces the fogging of glasses if you wear them.

I am happy to see others wear the blue throwaway surgical masks, but for me they feel quite inadequate at protecting me rather than others.

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Re: Mask to protect owner

#427546

Postby servodude » July 14th, 2021, 7:11 am

Lootman wrote:
servodude wrote:In the absence of anything to compel the "i don't want to wear one" crew during a period where there's a lot of ongoing spread I'd probably go for a well fitted disposable N95 or higher thing

I have been using Vogmask N99 masks since the beginning. Clearly they provide more protection, and I also find them more comfortable to wear than the standard N95s, which I have also used. And as someone else mentioned, the valve reduces the fogging of glasses if you wear them.

I am happy to see others wear the blue throwaway surgical masks, but for me they feel quite inadequate at protecting me rather than others.


Yeah they're great masks (we've has this conversation before :) ) and very comfortable (they're a great shape)

The one I had died pretty quickly when I used it cycling during the bad fire season a while ago though and I switched to a similar shaped competitor's mask but with the replaceable carbon filter that can be removed (and as a plus - the rest of the mask washed!)

I think Vogmask recommend replacing after a year of "light" use (sooner if used in anger) if I'd got that long out of it I would have kept using them

We did use the old Vog as a template though for some "casual" masks that the seamstress indoors knocked out when they were a thing
- they were even more comfy as I repurposed some soft silicone (from an nasal cannula) on the top side of the ear straps

Surgical masks are OK for catching snotters ;)
- the disposable N95 respirators though are a very different beast
- not least because they actually form an effective seal

- sd


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