Three vaccine doses

[stewamax]

Near-as enforcing. Driving a car places others at risk, perhaps cars should be banned in order to better protect the small number that otherwise get seriously injured or killed. Having vaccinated the most vulnerable they're better protected. There's suggestion that the vaccine is more harmful than protective for children. Others will be somewhere midway between the two and it should be each individuals personal choice of which risk they prefer.

In order to drive a car, an 18-year old must pass a practical and theory test. The car they drive must have had an MOT test and remain (between MOTs) safe to drive. When driving they must have low or zero alcohol in their blood, must belt up, and must drive safely and within the multitude of regulations summarised in the Highway Code.
All this is legally mandated. If they transgress ANY of these ‘restrictions’ they can be fined, lose their licence, or pay an involuntary visit to the slammer.
And yes: “a small number … [still] get seriously injured or killed”.

Between 1853 and 1971, was mandatory for children to have a smallpox vaccination. If not the parent/s were fined.
In 1917, my mother as a young girl caught diphtheria, and her memories of choking day after day on mouthfuls of shed membrane never faded. The three-dose ‘six in one’ vaccine for diphtheria, tetanus, polio whooping cough, hepatitis B and Hib is hugely effective, and had this been around, my mother would have been spared weeks in a Chester sanatorium. And anyone of a certain age will remember stories (and photos) of those who ended up in living in an iron lung’ after contacting polio.

So sorry 1vest: remember that children do not decide for themselves whether or not to be vaccinated. Apart for the very small number of children who already have medical conditions such as anaphylaxis, if parents decide Nay, they are bonkers.
And that is just the selfish parochial view and discounts the additional unfairness of possibly spreading disease to others.

Yes - bonkers.

[scrumpyjack]

And anyone of a certain age will remember stories (and photos) of those who ended up in living in an iron lung’ after contacting polio.

So sorry 1vest: remember that children do not decide for themselves whether or not to be vaccinated. Apart for the very small number of children who already have medical conditions such as anaphylaxis, if parents decide Nay, they are bonkers.
And that is just the selfish parochial view and discounts the additional unfairness of possibly spreading disease to others.

Yes - bonkers.

My father caught polio in 1952 aged 42. He had to sleep in an iron lung but managed to teach himself to breathe by positively moving his chest muscles. That didn't work at night so he had a pump and cuirass to breathe for him at night. He was severely paralysed and needed 24/7 care. He managed to live like that for another 33 years.

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

[pje16]

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

The best comment so far in this thread

[1nvest]

And that is just the selfish parochial view and discounts the additional unfairness of possibly spreading disease to others.

Highly vaccinated Israel is seeing rapid spread. As such the vaccines might be considered as serving self protection rather than for the protection of others, less likely to die if you contract Covid having been vaccined. However risk of death decreases with age, halves for every 6 years or so, whilst potential risks of vaccines remain unknown and might not come to light for many years. Why should some be forced into that risk rather than being left to make their own choice. More so when if a issue does come to light then there's no redress, you're injecting something that the state has insisted be at your own risk, not the pharmaceuticals, nor the state.

[1nvest]

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

The best comment so far in this thread

Possible indicators that the vaccine might indeed induce retardation of the mind. Idiocracy's premonition being a number of centuries too far out.

[AWOL]

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

The best comment so far in this thread

Whilst I understand the frustration, the problem is that nobody has ever been won over to an argument by challenging their intellect. The anti-vaxxers are actually a small minority who through being vocal and bold appear to be much more significant than the vaccination data would suggest they are. However for their sake and the sake of our society we need to engage in constructive dialog so that some will come to see a better way forward which will benefit them and those around them. The sad tragedy is that it is often those closest to anti-vaxxers that pay the price when it goes wrong. Fortunately the majority of antivaxxers will not die. Still, this minority like the anti-MMR minority has a disproportionate effect on case numbers and therefore needs to be won over not mocked.

I haven't many COVID anecdotes but I will repeat this one. I recently discovered that a friend of mine's son who works in a garage had a coworker (also young) who refused to wear a mask and was an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist type. He got ill and kept going to work. Even though he had been tested and found to have COVID he lied and told people that he was negative. He kept not wearing a mask and denying COVIDs very existence. The other guys in the garage developed COVID. They were still asymptomatic when contacted by track and trace but didn't remain so. They were shocked to discover that their colleague had kept coming to work, refused to wear a mask, and lied about his status. My friends son had passed COVID on to his dad by this time. They both have long COVID now but don't appear to have any serious organ damage which is a blessing. Sadly one of the guys at the garage was very unlucky, he died at 31 from the infection.

There is a chance that if people hadn't ignored the spreader's "idiotic views" and had engaged constructively and patiently in dialogue that a young man would still be alive. A slim chance I confess but I don't think we should give up on these people as they are people in the end and most of them aren't unfeeling monsters just frightened and making some poor judgements. These little dramas are being played out through the country.

Another example is the man who lied about his COVID status to visit a loved one in a local cancer ward. I won't go into the full consequences other than to say his loved one lived but a little thought will let you see how this is an example of the huge impact that this thoughtlessness has. An individual act of "freedom" that seams rational to the actor can have enormous repercussions.

I have checked the vaccination data and it looks like the majority of young people are getting vaccinated and the audible minority is giving a false impression.

[scrumpyjack]

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

The best comment so far in this thread

Whilst I understand the frustration, the problem is that nobody has ever been won over to an argument by challenging their intellect. The anti-vaxxers are actually a small minority who through being vocal and bold appear to be much more significant than the vaccination data would suggest they are. However for their sake and the sake of our society we need to engage in constructive dialog so that some will come to see a better way forward which will benefit them and those around them. The sad tragedy is that it is often those closest to anti-vaxxers that pay the price when it goes wrong. Fortunately the majority of antivaxxers will not die. Still, this minority like the anti-MMR minority has a disproportionate effect on case numbers and therefore needs to be won over not mocked.

I haven't many COVID anecdotes but I will repeat this one. I recently discovered that a friend of mine's son who works in a garage had a coworker (also young) who refused to wear a mask and was an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist type. He got ill and kept going to work. Even though he had been tested and found to have COVID he lied and told people that he was negative. He kept not wearing a mask and denying COVIDs very existence. The other guys in the garage developed COVID. They were still asymptomatic when contacted by track and trace but didn't remain so. They were shocked to discover that their colleague had kept coming to work, refused to wear a mask, and lied about his status. My friends son had passed COVID on to his dad by this time. They both have long COVID now but don't appear to have any serious organ damage which is a blessing. Sadly one of the guys at the garage was very unlucky, he died at 31 from the infection.

There is a chance that if people hadn't ignored the spreader's "idiotic views" and had engaged constructively and patiently in dialogue that a young man would still be alive. A slim chance I confess but I don't think we should give up on these people as they are people in the end and most of them aren't unfeeling monsters just frightened and making some poor judgements. These little dramas are being played out through the country.

Another example is the man who lied about his COVID status to visit a loved one in a local cancer ward. I won't go into the full consequences other than to say his loved one lived but a little thought will let you see how this is an example of the huge impact that this thoughtlessness has. An individual act of "freedom" that seams rational to the actor can have enormous repercussions.

I have checked the vaccination data and it looks like the majority of young people are getting vaccinated and the audible minority is giving a false impression.

Yes sadly the Darwin effect can kill others and not the originating idiot.

[anon155742]

One thing I enjoy about the vaccine debate is that many people on the pro vaccine side are often using the same type of arguments that someone who believes immigration should be severely reduced and illegal immigrants should be deported en masse.

[pje16]

An illegal immigrant anti vaxer
two strikes down
one more and you're.........

[murraypaul]

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

I think there is a distinction between "anti-vaxxers" who are against all sort of vaccinations, and believe things like covid vaccine is a secret plan to implant microchips in everyone on the one hand, and those who have decided not to take the covid vaccine for rational reasons on the other.

While I personally disagree with the latter group, I do not think that someone in their 20s who looks at their chances of getting seriously ill from covid vs possible side effects they do not know about is a moron. Possibly selfish, possibly misguided, but not a moron.

[scrumpyjack]

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

I think there is a distinction between "anti-vaxxers" who are against all sort of vaccinations, and believe things like covid vaccine is a secret plan to implant microchips in everyone on the one hand, and those who have decided not to take the covid vaccine for rational reasons on the other.

While I personally disagree with the latter group, I do not think that someone in their 20s who looks at their chances of getting seriously ill from covid vs possible side effects they do not know about is a moron. Possibly selfish, possibly misguided, but not a moron.

Given that so many tens or hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated and that young people are generally being offered the Pfizer jab with no clotting possibility (absolutely miniscule for the AZN one), and given that it is now clear young people can get very seriously ill and can suffer long covid, and given that any vaccine risks are demonstrably infinitessimally small compared to the risk of not being vaccinated, I think moron and idiot are justifiable descriptions. The risks of taking contraceptives are hugely higher and yet young people seem happy to take them.

Sadly my father got Polio before vaccination was an option. These people are just being wilfully stupid and it really should be publicised by the media in that context with the catastrophic examples of the results of non vaccination given much much more prominence.

[redsturgeon]

IMO the anti-vaxxers are utter morons and idiots.

I think there is a distinction between "anti-vaxxers" who are against all sort of vaccinations, and believe things like covid vaccine is a secret plan to implant microchips in everyone on the one hand, and those who have decided not to take the covid vaccine for rational reasons on the other.

While I personally disagree with the latter group, I do not think that someone in their 20s who looks at their chances of getting seriously ill from covid vs possible side effects they do not know about is a moron. Possibly selfish, possibly misguided, but not a moron.

Given that so many tens or hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated and that young people are generally being offered the Pfizer jab with no clotting possibility (absolutely miniscule for the AZN one), and given that it is now clear young people can get very seriously ill and can suffer long covid, and given that any vaccine risks are demonstrably infinitessimally small compared to the risk of not being vaccinated, I think moron and idiot are justifiable descriptions. The risks of taking contraceptives are hugely higher and yet young people seem happy to take them.

Sadly my father got Polio before vaccination was an option. These people are just being wilfully stupid and it really should be publicised by the media in that context with the catastrophic examples of the results of non vaccination given much much more prominence.

Would you apply those same pejorative epithets to some who drinks alcohol ?

John

[murraypaul]

Given that so many tens or hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated and that young people are generally being offered the Pfizer jab with no clotting possibility (absolutely miniscule for the AZN one), and given that it is now clear young people can get very seriously ill and can suffer long covid, and given that any vaccine risks are demonstrably infinitessimally small compared to the risk of not being vaccinated, I think moron and idiot are justifiable descriptions.

We don't know fully what the risks are yet.
Saying that doesn't make someone anti-vaxx, just realistic.
The risks that we know about are extremely small.
I certainly think that the immediate benefit outweighs what those future unknown (and, I think, very unlikely) risks might be, and got vaccinated as soon as possible.
I think the same is true for everyone else, and that they should get vaccinated as well, but I think people could rationally hold a different view.

[scrumpyjack]

Given that so many tens or hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated and that young people are generally being offered the Pfizer jab with no clotting possibility (absolutely miniscule for the AZN one), and given that it is now clear young people can get very seriously ill and can suffer long covid, and given that any vaccine risks are demonstrably infinitessimally small compared to the risk of not being vaccinated, I think moron and idiot are justifiable descriptions.

We don't know fully what the risks are yet.
Saying that doesn't make someone anti-vaxx, just realistic.
The risks that we know about are extremely small.
I certainly think that the immediate benefit outweighs what those future unknown (and, I think, very unlikely) risks might be, and got vaccinated as soon as possible.
I think the same is true for everyone else, and that they should get vaccinated as well, but I think people could rationally hold a different view.

Encouraging to see today that over 70% of young people (18 - 29) have now had their first jab in England

[1nvest]

Less encouraging

Shares in Moderna and Pfizer sank on Wednesday after the European Union drug regulator said it was looking into possible new side effects of the companies' COVID-19 vaccines.

Including kidney inflammation and renal disorders.

[ursaminortaur]

Between 1853 and 1971, was mandatory for children to have a smallpox vaccination. If not the parent/s were fined.

Actually the compulsion for smallpox vaccination was ended by the 1898 and 1907 Vaccination Acts after protests by the anti-vaxxers of the day.
After that although smallpox vaccination was routinely offered it wasn't compulsory and was avoided by many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_Act#The_1898_and_1907_Acts

In 1898 a new vaccination law was passed, in some respects modifying, but not superseding, previous Acts, giving conditional exemption of conscientious objectors, (and substituting calf lymph for humanised lymph). It removed cumulative penalties and introduced a conscience clause, allowing parents who did not believe vaccination was efficacious or safe to obtain a certificate of exemption.

The Vaccination Act of 1898 purported to give liberty of non-vaccination, but this liberty was not really obtained. Parents applying for a certificate of exemption had to satisfy two magistrates, or one stipendiary, of their conscientious objections. Some stipendiaries, and many of the magistrates, refused to be satisfied, and imposed delays. Unless the exemption was obtained before the child was four months old, it was too late. The consequence was that in the year 1906, only about 40,000 exemptions were obtained in England and Wales. In the year 1907 the Government recognised that the magistrates had practically declined to carry out the law of 1898, and, consequently, a new law—the Vaccination Act, 1907 (7 Edw. VII) was passed. Under this law the parent escaped penalties for the non-vaccination of his child if within four months from the birth he made a statutory declaration that he confidently believed that vaccination would be prejudicial to the health of the child, and within seven days thereafter delivered, or sent by post, the declaration to the Vaccination Officer of the district.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/history-anti-vaccination-movements

The Vaccination Act of 1853 ordered mandatory vaccination for infants up to 3 months old, and the Act of 1867 extended this age requirement to 14 years, adding penalties for vaccine refusal. The laws were met with immediate resistance from citizens who demanded the right to control their bodies and those of their children.[3] The Anti Vaccination League and the Anti-Compulsory Vaccination League formed in response to the mandatory laws, and numerous anti-vaccination journals sprang up.[2]

The town of Leicester was a particular hotbed of anti vaccine activity and the site of many anti-vaccine rallies. The local paper described the details of a rally: “An escort was formed, preceded by a banner, to escort a young mother and two men, all of whom had resolved to give themselves up to the police and undergo imprisonment in preference to having their children vaccinated…The three were attended by a numerous crowd…three hearty cheers were given for them, which were renewed with increased vigor as they entered the doors of the police cells.”[5] The Leicester Demonstration March of 1885 was one of the most notorious anti-vaccination demonstrations. There, 80,000-100,000 anti-vaccinators led an elaborate march, complete with banners, a child’s coffin, and an effigy of Jenner.[3]

Such demonstrations and general vaccine opposition lead to the development of a commission designed to study vaccination. In 1896 the commission ruled that vaccination protected against smallpox, but suggested removing penalties for failure to vaccinate. The Vaccination Act of 1898 removed penalties and included a “conscientious objector” clause, so that parents who did not believe in vaccination’s safety or efficacy could obtain an exemption certificate.


https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/research/centres/centre-history-public-health/news/2019-1

The second chapter investigates the nation through the lens of smallpox. Routine smallpox vaccination ended in 1971. British parents had avoided it for years, with uptake much lower than for other diseases and the legacy of the Victorian Vaccination Acts looming large over the entire programme. However, when there was a localised outbreak or when foreign travellers brought the disease with them the public suddenly demanded to be protected, putting great strain on the system.

[88V8]

Would you apply those same pejorative epithets to some who drinks alcohol ?

One can drink alcohol in moderation.
So I think this is one of those chianti bottles wrapped in straw.

V8

[scrumpyjack]

Would you apply those same pejorative epithets to some who drinks alcohol ?

One can drink alcohol in moderation.
So I think this is one of those chianti bottles wrapped in straw.

V8

They are certainly strong potential candidates for the Darwin Award
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards

[redsturgeon]

Would you apply those same pejorative epithets to some who drinks alcohol ?

One can drink alcohol in moderation.
So I think this is one of those chianti bottles wrapped in straw.

V8

They are certainly strong potential candidates for the Darwin Award
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards

Homemade cider excepted of course.

John

[Julian]

A plan to start offering Covid booster vaccinations in the UK from early September is extremely unlikely to happen, it is understood, given the concerns of the government’s vaccines watchdog about the clinical benefits and potential wider risks to vaccine confidence.

No formal date has been set for booster vaccinations as clinical trials continue, but the Department of Health and Social Care and the NHS have talked about their starting early next month after results from a series of clinical trials due this month.

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI), which advises ministers, met on Thursday morning, however, and is expected to tell them that significantly more work is needed before booster jabs can be rolled out.

This would cover not only who might gain a net clinical benefit from another vaccination, but also complex and broader issues about whether the plan is even necessary at all and concerns about excessive focus on Covid jabs hampering public confidence in vaccination more generally.

...

[ Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ources-say ]

- Julian