Autumn 22 Covid Booster

[tjh290633]

We had Pfizer Bivalent boosters a couple of days ago, and both have had very sore arms (significantly worse than with the previous AZ & Moderna jabs). I was interested to find that the 15 minute post-jab wait has been abandoned:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accination

I was told not to drive for 15 minutes after my Moderna-bivalent injection. Also that I could wait in the car, not held in a release area. I had no reaction and could have driven off immediately.

TJH

[scotia]

We had Pfizer Bivalent boosters a couple of days ago, and both have had very sore arms (significantly worse than with the previous AZ & Moderna jabs). I was interested to find that the 15 minute post-jab wait has been abandoned:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accination

That's interesting.
There was a seating area after we received our vaccinations (this week), and it was suggested that we should wait there for a few minutes.
Way back at my first Covid vaccination in our GP's surgery there was no waiting area, but I was advised to wander around outside for about 15 minutes before driving. At other vaccinations I have been advised to wait for 15 minutes - but there was no check that this was carried out.

[AWOL]

I am not anti-vax, in fact I am very pro-vax, but a friend of ours' daughter did collapse with a severe reaction after her first vaccine so it's rare but can happen. Personally, I have been skipping out without waiting for the 15 minutes but this did bring home that the unusual things do happen to some people. I assume it is so rare that the 15 minute check isn't worthwhile. I will continue to skip out as I don't have the attention span for sitting still for 15 minutes.

[oldapple]

Like AWOL, I am not anti-vax, although I'm not pro-vax either. A friend's son, fit and healthy, 23 years old, was taken to hospital this week, treated for stroke symptoms and given anti-clot injections - a few days after he received his vaccine as a pre-requisite to a holiday abroad. It has been a terrifying experience for him and his family. I urge caution for anyone young and healthy, and male in particular, not just based on 'anecdotal evidence' but on research of those like Dr John Campbell (whom YouTube issued a warning to for 'breaking guidelines').

[XFool]

I urge caution for anyone young and healthy, and male in particular, not just based on 'anecdotal evidence' but on research of those like Dr John Campbell (whom YouTube issued a warning to for 'breaking guidelines').

OTOH

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber)

"John Lorimer Campbell is a British YouTuber and retired nurse educator who has posted YouTube videos commenting on the COVID-19 pandemic since January 2020 on his channel, Dr. John Campbell. Initially, his videos received some praise, but later they veered into containing misinformation, such as the suggestion that deaths from COVID-19 have been over-counted, repeated false claims about the use of the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment, and misleading commentary about vaccine safety."

[Dod101]

I urge caution for anyone young and healthy, and male in particular, not just based on 'anecdotal evidence' but on research of those like Dr John Campbell (whom YouTube issued a warning to for 'breaking guidelines').

OTOH

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber)

"John Lorimer Campbell is a British YouTuber and retired nurse educator who has posted YouTube videos commenting on the COVID-19 pandemic since January 2020 on his channel, Dr. John Campbell. Initially, his videos received some praise, but later they veered into containing misinformation, such as the suggestion that deaths from COVID-19 have been over-counted, repeated false claims about the use of the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment, and misleading commentary about vaccine safety."

I watched the said John Campbell a couple of times but gave up as I do not like those people who seem to think they know more than 'the authorities'

Dod

[Julian]

I am not anti-vax, in fact I am very pro-vax, but a friend of ours' daughter did collapse with a severe reaction after her first vaccine so it's rare but can happen. Personally, I have been skipping out without waiting for the 15 minutes but this did bring home that the unusual things do happen to some people. I assume it is so rare that the 15 minute check isn't worthwhile. ...

Also, when the first round of UK vaccinations was being rolled out the UK was literally the first country in the world to approve a Covid-19 vaccine (via emergency use authorisation) so the only data on possible side effects prior to our roll out was the manufacturer's clinical trial data. Admittedly that trial data was for tens of thousands of people with no signals concerning enough to block approval but even so, as you say unusual things can happen to some people and might have been unusual enough to not raise a signal in a 30,000 to 40,000 volunteer data set (I think that's roughly the volunteer count for each manufacturer's phase 3 trials on the Pfizer and AZ vaccines), so at that time I can see why a "let's be doubly cautious" attitude might have been adopted for that first rollout until observational data on far more vaccine recipients was available and that "doubly cautious" approach might be what led to that 15-minute-wait protocol at vaccination centres that it is felt can now be dropped.

- Julian

[yyuryyub]

"I watched the said John Campbell a couple of times but gave up as I do not like those people who seem to think they know more than 'the authorities'"

I've never posted on any Covid message board and it's not a great interest of mine, but I couldn't let this stand unaswered.

I watched perhaps a few dozen of Dr.Campbell's youtube videos and found them a valuable resource in 2020-2021. I haven't watched them recently and can't speak for specific statements he may have made. He is not in any way a researcher, but an experienced competent person who looked at emerging evidence from around the world and interpreted it. I certainly do not think him more knowledgeable than the UK's chief scientific advisors - but his views were given honestly and without political interference or constraint. He was able to say things that "the authorities" would not say or would wait until too late before releasing. He also looked at fresh good quality data from around the world, as he had time to do so.

Possibly his videos became so popular that they were a huge money maker, but I doubt that this changed his underlying views much. I was grateful for the information that he gave, even if his presentation methods were poor (showing some printed data and drawing a circle round numbers!) He is one of the heroes of the pandemic for me.

[XFool]

"I watched the said John Campbell a couple of times but gave up as I do not like those people who seem to think they know more than 'the authorities'"

I've never posted on any Covid message board and it's not a great interest of mine, but I couldn't let this stand unaswered.

I know little about John Campbell. While I heard his name mentioned favourably in the early days of COVID, including here on TLF I believe and I once had a short look at him to see for myself, I never followed him as I never felt the need. So, little personal experience of him myself (some people do seem to need/want a 'guru').

More recently I had noticed his name cropping up in connection with YouTube bans and suchlike - so assumed there had, over time, been some 'mission creep'! The Wikipedia entry on him confirmed this.

Why does this sort of thing happen? I have no idea; it is a real mystery! But happen it does.

My own benchmark for this was Mike Yeadon, who I originally learned of in a post on TLF. He was already getting into his stride then, with an article on 'Lockdown Sceptics'. I followed his 'career' for a while after that, it proceeded much as expected (and as I predicted), until I got bored and gave up. By which point it was well crazy!

Others were watching him too. Reuters did a whole article on him:

The ex-Pfizer scientist who became an anti-vax hero
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/health-coronavirus-vaccines-skeptic/

It's a strange tale, a genuine research scientist working for Pfizer. A competent and well-respected colleague. He left Pfizer, started a successful company which he sold and then retired - Is that when the rot set in? Originally, on his COVID Twitter account, he was reasonable enough hoping for a vaccine. Over time things started to change...

There are examples aplenty of this sort of thing on the Internet - not just the usual nut jobs but including respectable, serious scientists who 'went native'. It is a strange and remarkable phenomenon, which I still find incomprehensible. But it happens.

[redsturgeon]

Yes I have similar views on John Campbell. He started off a very objective and a useful collator of information from genuine sources but along the line he got sucked into supporting hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

John

[Dod101]

Yes I have similar views on John Campbell. He started off a very objective and a useful collator of information from genuine sources but along the line he got sucked into supporting hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

John

I thought that you had made up these terms until I looked them up. Not quite sure what you mean by 'similar views' but I am unapologetic as I rerally do not like people like him very much, for no particular reason!

Dod

[Mike4]

Yes I have similar views on John Campbell. He started off a very objective and a useful collator of information from genuine sources but along the line he got sucked into supporting hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

John

Did he?

I don't remember that. In fact my own perception is he just kept calling for trials. The closest he got to 'supporting' hydroxychloroquine was him repeatedly asking why no trials were being conducted. My weak and feeble memory could be misleading me, but I'd be interested if you can cite a post of his 'supporting' hydroxychloroquine.

He tends to present research evidence and say "you decide" in the videos of his that I've watched. I'll be happy to change my opinion if there are videos of his "supporting" hydroxychloroquine without any evidence.

[redsturgeon]

Yes I have similar views on John Campbell. He started off a very objective and a useful collator of information from genuine sources but along the line he got sucked into supporting hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

John

Did he?

I don't remember that. In fact my own perception is he just kept calling for trials. The closest he got to 'supporting' hydroxychloroquine was him repeatedly asking why no trials were being conducted. My weak and feeble memory could be misleading me, but I'd be interested if you can cite a post of his 'supporting' hydroxychloroquine.

He tends to present research evidence and say "you decide" in the videos of his that I've watched. I'll be happy to change my opinion if there are videos of his "supporting" hydroxychloroquine without any evidence.

Here in August 2020, in the first 30 seconds of this video.

He admits it is not definitive but says he is leaning towards the idea that hydroxychloroquine does have benefits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBn4e69tGlg

To be fair though in about November 2020 he finally says it is not effective according to the data.

John

[Julian]

Yes I have similar views on John Campbell. He started off a very objective and a useful collator of information from genuine sources but along the line he got sucked into supporting hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

John

I also followed John Campbell in the early days of the pandemic and now only occasionally watch one or two of his videos now and then.

I also perceive a huge drift in his views. In the early days I found his channel useful primarily because his videos signposted recently published reports, gave a minute or so summary of the author's conclusions and headline data, then went through the report in more detail typically (from my memory of those early days) without too many personal interpretations or asides, and finally linking to the source reports in the video description. I found it quite a convenient, time efficient and neutral way to keep up with the torrent of research going on around us at that time (not all of it having stood the test of time). If I had to pick a general ethos for those days it would be a case of trust the science and don't follow wild conspiracy theories in the absence of any solid data.

For the videos I've seen recently the change in both JC's presentation and the nature of the comments section is stark. There seem to me to be attempts to deliver covert messages where he prints out and reads (his usual presentation technique) the YouTube regulations about Covid-19 misinformation and then says stuff like "so I'm not saying that but ..." then says stuff like "the data is interesting" or "there needs to be more investigation" or whatever. Judging from the comments section on his recent videos he now seems to have a new and totally different audience very heavily represented by anti-vaxers and even conspiracy theorists. I just don't find it a good place to be any more.

- Julian

[redsturgeon]

I concur 100% with Julian. I have notice this in various commentators on YouTube. They start off reasonably objective but I think the algorithm grabs them and they become nudged by "likes" and subscribers to an ever more polarised position. The way Campbell has started to slyly infer things to keep on the right side of the Youtube censors is very disingenious IMHO.

John

[Julian]

... slyly infer ...

Indeed. That was exactly the sort of phrase I failed to come up with to, in my opinion, perfectly describe the vibe I get from some of the more recent John Campbell videos I've watched.

- Julian

[Alaric]

I was interested to find that the 15 minute post-jab wait has been abandoned:

Not totally. Having driven to the centre, I was advised to wait in the car a few minutes before leaving.

[redsturgeon]

... slyly infer ...

Indeed. That was exactly the sort of phrase I failed to come up with to, in my opinion, perfectly describe the vibe I get from some of the more recent John Campbell videos I've watched.

- Julian

Hmmm just been watching Campbell's latest video and he has absolutely demonstrated his modus operandi.
It is a video on Ivermectin and the ongoing trials. He clearly show that Ivermectin is not recommended for treatment for covid.
He talks through the Youtube guidelines and tells us why he is definitely not breaking any of those guidelines.

Then at about 14.30, having previously explained the role of Ivermectin as a treatment for various tropical diseases, rare in the UK, he shows a pack of the drug that he has at home for treating these rare diseases. He then shows a foil that has clearly been opened and used. The implications are pretty obvious that he, as a widely followed commentator on covid has taken Ivermectin and so should you.

I think he is playing a dangerous game.

John

[XFool]

I have noticed that in my Patient Access account, although my Autumn 2022 COVID vaccination is recorded normally, it has not been copied up to the home directory as with the 2021 Pfizer one, and as with earlier ones.

Is this perhaps because the NHS App etc. are no longer required to produce a checkable current COVID vaccination status?

[Gersemi]

I have noticed that in my Patient Access account, although my Autumn 2022 COVID vaccination is recorded normally, it has not been copied up to the home directory as with the 2021 Pfizer one, and as with earlier ones.

Is this perhaps because the NHS App etc. are no longer required to produce a checkable current COVID vaccination status?

The NHS can still be used to produce evidence of vaccination status,. I did it recently for foreign travel.