Covid vacs cut back for under 65s

[Julian]

The human immune system seems to struggle with the common cold. If it was that good, I'd have thought we would no longer catch colds once we've caught all the basic variants.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "struggling with the common cold". I'd say that the human immune system actually does a pretty good job with the common cold in that while many people get it, sometimes multiple times a year, relatively few people die from it - which takes us right back to a common debate (I would be tempted to say deceit) about the Covid-19 vaccines. Some people - most antivaxxers - insist on stating that the vaccines don't work by citing the fact that vaccinated people can still get infected but ignoring the fact that the vaccines, for most people, significantly reduce the risk of a SARS-CoV2 infection become serious or even fatal.

I'm not an expert but from what I've read I get the distinct impression that it's probably true that immunity acquired via a natural SARS-CoV2 infection does confer broader-based immunity since, as Ashfordian said, the immune system gets exposed to epitopes derived from all of the viral proteins whereas after vaccination with any of the currently approved Covid-19 vaccines that I am aware of the immune system is only exposed to epitopes derived from the SARS-CoV2 spike protein. That's not to say however that the vaccines are worthless because of that, and it's also not true to say that their benefit wanes within 2 or 3 months because that is only looking at antibodies whereas T-cell responses are much longer lived and those T-cell targets (epitopes) are also much better conserved across the mutated strains that we have seen so far even if only looking at spike-derived epitopes.

As a (to the best of my knowledge) healthy 64 year old I now find myself thinking that maybe the key long term benefit of my Covid-19 vaccinations (an initial 2 dose AZ course plus a single Pfizer booster) is that, because of the protection against serious illness or death that those vaccines gave me, they offered me a safe way to catch SARS-CoV2 and expose my immune system to the full range of SARS-CoV2 epitopes beyond just those derived from spike which I hope now gives me the best broad based immunity that I can get and will allow me to fight off the inevitable future infections in a world where SARS-CoV2 is now endemic.

- Julian

[tjh290633]

Another factor might be the production of T-cells, either as the result of vaccination or of infection with COVID.

There is also the fact that some people have never caught COVID, while others have had the virus several times. Possibly something generic is the reason.

TJH

[Julian]

Another factor might be the production of T-cells, either as the result of vaccination or of infection with COVID.

There is also the fact that some people have never caught COVID, while others have had the virus several times. Possibly something generic is the reason.

TJH

There's been some research published now with a very solid-looking explanation for a specific genetic difference that could account for some people never getting a symptomatic SARS-CoV2 infection which, if someone isn't being compelled to test regularly regardless of symptoms, is indistinguishable from never being infected at all. (And unless it's because of their job or out of concern for a vulnerable person who they come into contact with I suspect few people are routinely testing regardless of symptoms now.)

A pretty clear and reasonably concise (about 20 minutes) discussion on that, already posted a while ago by someone else here, is this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ArDhhlHU-I

At the time of the linked video that paper was still in preprint but it has now been peer reviewed with additional experiments done to support the paper's hypothesis and has been published in Nature which apparently has quite a high bar for a paper being accepted hence the long period of time in peer review.

The mechanism described in the paper is all to do with T-cells epitopes by the way. Gotta love those T-cells!

I'd be pretty certain that the mechanism described in the video & associated paper above is not the sole reason for the differing likelihood of getting infected across a population but it certainly seems to be a significant one of those genetic factors that you suggested. I think it's very encouraging that scientists are now coming up with really solid evidence-backed explanations for some of the behaviours of the virus that we saw during the pandemic (and are still seeing now) but didn't fully understand at the time.

- Julian

[swill453]

Here's the Scottish winter vaccination plan:



https://twitter.com/jasonleitch/status/ ... 4145971200

I guess the main distinction with the English one is offering the flu vaccine for people aged 50-64 (i.e. me!).

Scott.

[servodude]

Here's the Scottish winter vaccination plan:

https://twitter.com/jasonleitch/status/ ... 4145971200

I guess the main distinction with the English one is offering the flu vaccine for people aged 50-64 (i.e. me!).

Scott.

arrghh! my eyes....

Prison population prison officers and support staff who deliver direct front-facing detention services.

....what a typographical abomination!!
(it's not the only example but I'm not doing that again)
Sheesh!

[XFool]

Covid vaccines should be available to buy privately in UK, scientists say

The Guardian

People not eligible for autumn booster programme should have option to pay for jab, experts argue, amid new wave concerns

[servodude]

Covid vaccines should be available to buy privately in UK, scientists say

The Guardian

People not eligible for autumn booster programme should have option to pay for jab, experts argue, amid new wave concerns

I must admit that the withholding of an approved vaccine for a contagious endemic virus from private sale does seem a bit weird c.f. flu
...and after scanning the article I'm not really sure why it is the case but at least the get the flu point

[Mike4]

Covid vaccines should be available to buy privately in UK, scientists say

The Guardian

People not eligible for autumn booster programme should have option to pay for jab, experts argue, amid new wave concerns

I must admit that the withholding of an approved vaccine for a contagious endemic virus from private sale does seem a bit weird c.f. flu
...and after scanning the article I'm not really sure why it is the case but at least the get the flu point

But is it (or they) an 'approved vaccine'? Was the initial emergency approval upgraded to full, unqualified approval?

I remember all the fuss when 'emergency approval' was granted for each of them as the weeks and months clicked by, but I never saw anything about the full approval which I think usually takes years to achieve.

[servodude]

I must admit that the withholding of an approved vaccine for a contagious endemic virus from private sale does seem a bit weird c.f. flu
...and after scanning the article I'm not really sure why it is the case but at least the get the flu point

But is it (or they) an 'approved vaccine'? Was the initial emergency approval upgraded to full, unqualified approval?

I remember all the fuss when 'emergency approval' was granted for each of them as the weeks and months clicked by, but I never saw anything about the full approval which I think usually takes years to achieve.

You might have a point there; perhaps they are taking time to come to terms with the "like a flu" aspect (strange given that was the starting position for a lot )
It just seems a strange thing to put on whatever controlled access list it is on, given that it is being given out freely to one cohort, and doesn't seem to be constrained in supply.
Smells like some part of the system "playing catch-up" more than anything else

[Ashfordian]

I must admit that the withholding of an approved vaccine for a contagious endemic virus from private sale does seem a bit weird c.f. flu
...and after scanning the article I'm not really sure why it is the case but at least the get the flu point

But is it (or they) an 'approved vaccine'? Was the initial emergency approval upgraded to full, unqualified approval?

I remember all the fuss when 'emergency approval' was granted for each of them as the weeks and months clicked by, but I never saw anything about the full approval which I think usually takes years to achieve.

From what I recall full approval was/is going to be granted in 2023. So they don't have long left.

Also, I don't believe you can sell a vaccine without it being fully approved, hence why it is in this situation today.

[1nvest]

New variant of Covid (BA.2.86) now in the UK/London (also in Denmark, Israel, US). Spike protein changes - high number of mutations and unknown whether such mutations might cause more or less infectiousness or health issues/deaths. Infectious diseases control expert Dr Pankhania suggests more vaccinations are required globally in order to see less infections, less opportunities for mutations.

Seems like only a matter of time before a virus mutates into a form that is capable of ridding the world of the virus of mankind.

[tjh290633]

New variant of Covid (BA.2.86) now in the UK/London (also in Denmark, Israel, US). Spike protein changes - high number of mutations and unknown whether such mutations might cause more or less infectiousness or health issues/deaths. Infectious diseases control expert Dr Pankhania suggests more vaccinations are required globally in order to see less infections, less opportunities for mutations.

Seems like only a matter of time before a virus mutates into a form that is capable of ridding the world of the virus of mankind.

As there appears to be a cohort which has immunity and the remainder have susceptibility to the virus in all its forms, perhaps we shall see survival of the fittest.

TJH

[Julian]

New variant of Covid (BA.2.86) now in the UK/London (also in Denmark, Israel, US). Spike protein changes - high number of mutations and unknown whether such mutations might cause more or less infectiousness or health issues/deaths. Infectious diseases control expert Dr Pankhania suggests more vaccinations are required globally in order to see less infections, less opportunities for mutations.

Seems like only a matter of time before a virus mutates into a form that is capable of ridding the world of the virus of mankind.

I googled Dr Pankhania. He doesn't mince his words. I found a little gem from about 4 months ago about an appearance he made on Lawrence Fox's show on GB News where Fox asked him for his thoughts on the vaccine rollout. His answer, as quoted in a news piece in the Independent, was...

I sometimes wonder why you exist, to be honest with you. A lot of these things that you spew out, just send things that are worrisome to people, are not verified, are not factual. You just have your own agenda, that's what I think. You are just spewing out your biased views. That's how I feel about you.

[ Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 29322.html ]

That source is behind a paywall but there is enough text visible in the greyed-out text to read what I quoted.

It made me smile.

- Julian

[mc2fool]

I googled Dr Pankhania. He doesn't mince his words. I found a little gem from about 4 months ago about an appearance he made on Lawrence Fox's show on GB News where Fox asked him for his thoughts on the vaccine rollout. His answer, as quoted in a news piece in the Independent, was...

I sometimes wonder why you exist, to be honest with you. A lot of these things that you spew out, just send things that are worrisome to people, are not verified, are not factual. You just have your own agenda, that's what I think. You are just spewing out your biased views. That's how I feel about you.

[ Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 29322.html ]

That source is behind a paywall but there is enough text visible in the greyed-out text to read what I quoted.

It made me smile.

- Julian

Curious, it's not paywalled for me ... but anyway, if you can't get to the video in the article you can see Dr Pankhania not mincing those very words at https://twitter.com/TheMooseOfTruth/status/1651860036363100160 (I love the "You're welcome" ending! )

[Ashfordian]

New variant of Covid (BA.2.86) now in the UK/London (also in Denmark, Israel, US). Spike protein changes - high number of mutations and unknown whether such mutations might cause more or less infectiousness or health issues/deaths. Infectious diseases control expert Dr Pankhania suggests more vaccinations are required globally in order to see less infections, less opportunities for mutations.

I struggle with 'experts' like this when they come out with this nonsense. I can't see how he can be called an Infectious disease expert based on what we now know about Covid vaccines.

We already know from 2021 that vaccination does not stop infections. So his approach would just mean there will be more vaccine resistant mutations, thus creating worse medical outcomes for those who require the assistance of the vaccine (the old, frail and weakest in society).

That people accept this without question again demonstrates how it was Foolishness that died during the pandemic.

[XFool]

I am certainly no "expert" (or anything like) in such matters. However...

New variant of Covid (BA.2.86) now in the UK/London (also in Denmark, Israel, US). Spike protein changes - high number of mutations and unknown whether such mutations might cause more or less infectiousness or health issues/deaths. Infectious diseases control expert Dr Pankhania suggests more vaccinations are required globally in order to see less infections, less opportunities for mutations.

I struggle with 'experts' like this when they come out with this nonsense. I can't see how he can be called an Infectious disease expert based on what we now know about Covid vaccines.

We already know from 2021 that vaccination does not stop infections. So his approach would just mean there will be more vaccine resistant mutations, thus creating worse medical outcomes for those who require the assistance of the vaccine (the old, frail and weakest in society).

"vaccine resistant mutilations"? Are they common? What does it mean? If they exist would they not simply be ordinary mutations that have evaded the human immune system - or such responses of the immune system invoked by vaccination? (Which happen anyway without vaccination) Vaccines are not directly acting medical agents such as anti-viral drugs, or anti-bacterial agents like penicillin.

Why the evolution of vaccine resistance is less of a concern than the evolution of drug resistance

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1717159115

"Vaccine resistance evolves less readily than drug resistance (Fig. 1). Elsewhere, we have argued that two key differences between drugs and vaccines explain why (6). The first is the timing of treatment, and the second is the multiplicity of target sites. Vaccines are used prophylactically, whereas drugs tend to be used therapeutically. This difference in timing means that, relative to drugs, vaccines tend to keep pathogens from ever achieving large population sizes within hosts. Resistance mutations are less likely to appear in small populations (7), and when such mutations appear and confer partial resistance within a host, they are unlikely to replicate to the large population sizes that are associated with onward transmission (6, 8). In addition, drugs tend to target pathogens in a single way (9) whereas vaccines tend to target pathogens in multiple ways by inducing host-specific antibody and/or T cell responses (10). This difference in the multiplicity of target sites means that relative to drugs, more mutations are likely needed to confer resistance to vaccines. Variability in immune responses between hosts (11) further implies that even if a pathogen variant were resistant to vaccine protection in one host, it may still be detected and killed in another vaccinated host."

That people accept this without question again demonstrates how it was Foolishness that died during the pandemic.

Or perhaps real "experts" know about these things?

[XFool]

..."vaccine resistant mutilations"?

Must have (mis)spelled it out myself, rather than using Copy & Paste.

[Ashfordian]

I am certainly no "expert" (or anything like) in such matters. However...

I struggle with 'experts' like this when they come out with this nonsense. I can't see how he can be called an Infectious disease expert based on what we now know about Covid vaccines.

We already know from 2021 that vaccination does not stop infections. So his approach would just mean there will be more vaccine resistant mutations, thus creating worse medical outcomes for those who require the assistance of the vaccine (the old, frail and weakest in society).

"vaccine resistant mutilations"? Are they common? What does it mean? If they exist would they not simply be ordinary mutations that have evaded the human immune system - or such responses of the immune system invoked by vaccination? (Which happen anyway without vaccination) Vaccines are not directly acting medical agents such as anti-viral drugs, or anti-bacterial agents like penicillin.

Why the evolution of vaccine resistance is less of a concern than the evolution of drug resistance

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1717159115

"Vaccine resistance evolves less readily than drug resistance (Fig. 1). Elsewhere, we have argued that two key differences between drugs and vaccines explain why (6). The first is the timing of treatment, and the second is the multiplicity of target sites. Vaccines are used prophylactically, whereas drugs tend to be used therapeutically. This difference in timing means that, relative to drugs, vaccines tend to keep pathogens from ever achieving large population sizes within hosts. Resistance mutations are less likely to appear in small populations (7), and when such mutations appear and confer partial resistance within a host, they are unlikely to replicate to the large population sizes that are associated with onward transmission (6, 8). In addition, drugs tend to target pathogens in a single way (9) whereas vaccines tend to target pathogens in multiple ways by inducing host-specific antibody and/or T cell responses (10). This difference in the multiplicity of target sites means that relative to drugs, more mutations are likely needed to confer resistance to vaccines. Variability in immune responses between hosts (11) further implies that even if a pathogen variant were resistant to vaccine protection in one host, it may still be detected and killed in another vaccinated host."

That people accept this without question again demonstrates how it was Foolishness that died during the pandemic.

Or perhaps real "experts" know about these things?

Can you point to which parts of your post are relevant to the Covid vaccines?

Actually, to make it easier for you as your post is all ideology rather than reality, can you detail how the Covid vaccine is prophylactic?

[XFool]

I am certainly no "expert" (or anything like) in such matters. However...

"vaccine resistant mutations * "? Are they common? What does it mean? If they exist would they not simply be ordinary mutations that have evaded the human immune system - or such responses of the immune system invoked by vaccination? (Which happen anyway without vaccination) Vaccines are not directly acting medical agents such as anti-viral drugs, or anti-bacterial agents like penicillin.

Why the evolution of vaccine resistance is less of a concern than the evolution of drug resistance

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1717159115

"Vaccine resistance evolves less readily than drug resistance (Fig. 1). Elsewhere, we have argued that two key differences between drugs and vaccines explain why (6). The first is the timing of treatment, and the second is the multiplicity of target sites. Vaccines are used prophylactically, whereas drugs tend to be used therapeutically. This difference in timing means that, relative to drugs, vaccines tend to keep pathogens from ever achieving large population sizes within hosts. Resistance mutations are less likely to appear in small populations (7), and when such mutations appear and confer partial resistance within a host, they are unlikely to replicate to the large population sizes that are associated with onward transmission (6, 8). In addition, drugs tend to target pathogens in a single way (9) whereas vaccines tend to target pathogens in multiple ways by inducing host-specific antibody and/or T cell responses (10). This difference in the multiplicity of target sites means that relative to drugs, more mutations are likely needed to confer resistance to vaccines. Variability in immune responses between hosts (11) further implies that even if a pathogen variant were resistant to vaccine protection in one host, it may still be detected and killed in another vaccinated host."


Or perhaps real "experts" know about these things?

Can you point to which parts of your post are relevant to the Covid vaccines?

Err... All of it?

Actually, to make it easier for you as your post is all ideology rather than reality, can you detail how the Covid vaccine is prophylactic?

What is it you don't understand?

* Note original misspelling corrected by me - XFool

[Ashfordian]

Actually, to make it easier for you as your post is all ideology rather than reality, can you detail how the Covid vaccine is prophylactic?

What is it you don't understand?
[/quote]

I don't understand how you seem to believe the Covid vaccine is prophylactic.

It doesn't stop infection. It doesn't stop transmission. It assists the vulnerable for a short period (measured in weeks). Does that meet the definition of prophylactic over therapeutic to you?