scrumpyjack wrote:Charlottesquare wrote:scrumpyjack wrote:
It is highly unlikely that the EU would admit them, at least for a few decades (if the EU lasts that long). There are many EU countries that have regions wanting to secede (Spain / Catalunia for example) who would not want to set a precedent. If, by some miracle, they were admitted they would then have a barrier with the country they do the vast majority of their trade (R UK) and free trade with lands far far away that they do much less trade with.
Still commonsense does not enter into these nationalistic debates. Who was is who said 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' ?
There is the problem, the one word, regions.
Scotland is not merely a region and 1707 was a Union not a takeover, it is in the name on the treaty. When Scotland agreed to a Union with England et al (and agreed is a flexible word in this context) it did so as a sovereign nation and it remains a sovereign nation which is in Union with the other parts of the united kingdoms; it is not now, and never has been, just a bit tacked on, mere region.
Brexit has shown us that we can ignore economics, stuff the evidence, so frankly why would we now follow commonsense?
As someone who campaigned for Better Together in 2014 (I am by family as English as I am Scottish) I am starting to have my reservations, it is akin to thinking a house move might be a clever idea as the neighbours are starting to become a bit antisocial,they in the main are okay but seem to keep holding parties where some pretty unpleasant guests keep getting an invite and our reservations about these guests keep getting ignored. We are getting close to the point where if we cannot get them to see our point of view via discussions then maybe a stronger boundary fence may be the only solution.
And in 1137 the Kingdom of Aragon was formed, now Catalonia. Not to mention the Kingdom of Naples etc etc all over Europe. The Basque country has its own language and predates the Romans. It has its own flag, cuisine etc etc. There have always been lots of countries in Europe that have joined together or split apart.
One could go on. That is not in any way to disparage the Scottish heritage, nor the English one. My wife is Scots, and my mother was.
Your last paragraph is very true, but it could as easily be a description of the view from the English looking north.
The big difference with your examples like Naples is that they were subsumed into something else, Scotland, as a country, never ceased to exist, it was not a takeover but a marriage and successive governments in Westminster over the years recognised this and acted accordingly.
They tended to try not to legislate for Scotland when the various institutions in Scotland were strongly opposed to said legislation, there was a recognition that Westminster's governance up here was at the will of the Scottish people.
Thatcher, if one say reads TM Devine, "Independence or Union: Scotland's Past and Scotland's Present", whilst taking at times a " one nation" approach famously told Rifkind (I think it was Rifkind) that she was an "English Nationalist", she recognised within "The Downing Street Years" the right of the Scottish People to decide if they wished or not to remain part of said Union (as of course do the English), even she saw that the Union is not a singular event within history but a continuing relationship throughout a shared history which can ,and likely at some point will, cease.( Entropy)
There are differences, some might argue superficial, but added together they create a real difference;- if I take out my certificates from school they will look very different from yours,I likely took more subjects and a broader range of subjects in my final year at school (Highers in English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, History, Economics), I most certainly studied on a broader front at university during my first degree, that breadth is a reflection of differing values within the two educational systems. If I take out my copy house titles they again will differ in form, England seems to have difficulties with the idea of joint ownership of a solum granted to the individual flat owners within their individual titles. My late father's trust uses different terms (no remaindermen here), the leases I offer our commercial tenants differ, the rights here of say tenants of retail properties at ish are starkly different to in England, the church I was christened in differs in its practices (Nae Bishops), and of course there are various breakaway factions that will likely appear even more alien. ((Frees, Wee Frees etc) If I am charged with a crime here, say hamesucken (does England still have such) they will require corroboration to find me guilty and they might give me the third verdict, Not Proven.
Yes, there is commonality, Scots have served throughout empire, fought in wars, shared a history, but there is also a real difference, unlike say Wales or Ireland we did not fall by conquest we agreed to a document that binds the two countries in Union insofar as the two countries still wish to be in such Union.